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  #21  
Old 07-26-2006, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by xx3
If you really want an honest opinion, it is the X3 (and the Z4 to a lesser extent) is the one in the BMW family that is the least BMW. I love my X3, but it cannot hide the penny pinching its experienced as well as the obvious cuts made here and there in order to rush it to market in the most profitable way possible.
I'm not sure I totally agree with that. BMW's aren't necessarily "luxurious" and I would never want them that way. They are a driver's car first and all the other stuff comes later. Going back to the 2002 and even the first 3 and 5 series - I don't know that they could ever have been called luxurious. Certainly the amenities have improved but it's far more about the drive. I had a guy at work argue with me about that and tell me how disappointed he was that the BMW's he test drove weren't very luxurious . . . right, because you're missing the point. The "3 point" and the expensive Toyota and even an overpriced Honda (Mercedes, Lexus, Acura) may have more "luxury" but they don't deliver in the performance department - not nearly as well. BMWs are more refined now than they were but to me that's not their primary intent. That's just what I think about that . . .
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  #22  
Old 07-26-2006, 02:46 PM
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I think BMWs are about the overall package: the combination of fun to drive, sport, and luxury in a practical day-to-day package. If I wanted all sport and nothing else (in other words a track car) I'd get a Mitsu Evo.
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  #23  
Old 07-27-2006, 04:08 AM
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What you're saying is contrary to every article I've ever read on the subject.
I'd like to see these articles, if you could provide the links it would be appreciated...

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You're confusing the 2003+ post-X5 version of the Range Rover (which does use some x5 components such as engine and transmission and was largely designed by BMW) with the original genesis of the X5. The X5 originally grew from Range Rover, and subsequently some components and design flowed back to Range Rover
I'm actually talking about both the pre-BMW influenced Range Rover of 95' as well as the 03' BMW influenced model. Neither significantly influenced the X5. And the X5 was BMW's first SAV, Range Rover didn't design it - simply counseled.

But let me ask this. If the X5 really did grow from the Range Rover (say the 95' RR), how come the X5 did not end up with the RR's offroading pedigree? The Cayenne/Toureg/(perahps Q7) all show clearly that a very clear balance can be made between offroading ability as well on-road handling. The first some argue handling better than the X5.

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The X5 is definitely not built on the E39 platform (it was an all-new platform), which one article I read stated is the main reason why the interior space is the X5 is small relative to its size.
I never said that it was built on the E39 platform, simply that the E53 platform is derived from the E39 platform. Both shared very similar electronics, parts, etc. Just like the E83 (X3) shares many parts with the E46 (3 Series) [e.g. X3's rear suspension assembly = 330xi's rear suspension assembly).

The only reason why the X5 has small interior space for its size is because BMW decided to give it a sporty shape (as a design decision). Both previous Range Rover's and the new 'BMW designed' model both have very large cargo spaces. Saying that the X5 has small interior space because it was designed by Range Rover (before BMW was able to do their own in-house X3, as you said) is simply foolish. It was a design choice BMW made, and has now realized the faultiness of this decision, and has rectified its stance in the E70.

Quote:
but BMW's stamp has ended as of the 2006 MY.
Not true. BMW's stamp will not end until the current model is phased out. Most of the BMW parts were changed over for MY 2005. The BMW 4.4i was replaced that year, as well as the entire navigation system. MY 2007 will see the eradication of the majority of BMW's electronics from the Range Rover. However, BMW's stamp will remain, as the design of the model (not only the exterior but major parts) carries forward until its replacement.

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It's certainly not a rebranded Range Rover, but much of it's heritage and many aspects of its engineering are Range Rover based.
Again I doubt this. Other than HDC and the two piece tailgate, Range Rover has not had a considerable influence on the X5. Sure you can argue that both are four wheel drive, and that both ride higher from the ground. But the BMW did not get 4 wheel drive technology from Range Rover (instead used DSC), used a monocoque body (versus older welding techniques Range Rover's previously employed), engines, electronics or any major part or technology from Range Rover other then again HDC and the two piece tailgate.

And all of this has nothing to do with the topic. The X5 production some may argue is not up to par (I beg to differ, both our X5's have been flawless), is not because Range Rover designed it (as you claim) - but due to other reasons. Mainly budget cuts that ensued during the Rover debacle (testing funding was hit very hard during the testing phase of the E53). Other argue that the fact that it is produced in America has an effect on quality. All reasons nothing to do with Range Rover.

-------

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Originally Posted by mwbbmw
I'm not sure I totally agree with that. BMW's aren't necessarily "luxurious" and I would never want them that way. They are a driver's car first and all the other stuff comes later. Going back to the 2002 and even the first 3 and 5 series - I don't know that they could ever have been called luxurious. Certainly the amenities have improved but it's far more about the drive. I had a guy at work argue with me about that and tell me how disappointed he was that the BMW's he test drove weren't very luxurious . . . right, because you're missing the point. The "3 point" and the expensive Toyota and even an overpriced Honda (Mercedes, Lexus, Acura) may have more "luxury" but they don't deliver in the performance department - not nearly as well. BMWs are more refined now than they were but to me that's not their primary intent. That's just what I think about that . . .
I agree completely. BMW's were never known for stunner design either. However you have to concede that the X3's interior is pretty low, even for BMW standards. The E46, E39 and even the E53 have much nicer interiors...

Last edited by xx3; 07-27-2006 at 04:34 AM.
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  #24  
Old 07-27-2006, 11:44 AM
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I agree completely. BMW's were never known for stunner design either. However you have to concede that the X3's interior is pretty low, even for BMW standards. The E46, E39 and even the E53 have much nicer interiors...[/QUOTE]

To that point I will concede but I do think it's because they did that intentionally. It seems it is supposed to be more activity than anything else . . . leave the luxury to the X5 and the sedans, this bad boy is more about function . . . but yes it really isn't as nice as the sedans or the X5 (which explains many of the interior changes for '07). Although I will add that I sat in a new 6 at the dealership some time ago and was not blown away with the luxury either . . . I certainly thought the new 5's were better as are the new 3's . . . perhaps my expectations were just different.
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  #25  
Old 07-27-2006, 01:22 PM
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To that point I will concede but I do think it's because they did that intentionally. It seems it is supposed to be more activity than anything else . . . leave the luxury to the X5 and the sedans, this bad boy is more about function . . . but yes it really isn't as nice as the sedans or the X5 (which explains many of the interior changes for '07). Although I will add that I sat in a new 6 at the dealership some time ago and was not blown away with the luxury either . . . I certainly thought the new 5's were better as are the new 3's . . . perhaps my expectations were just different.
This is true to an extent too. The X3 was designed with a very 'active' lifestyle in mind as you state. However, there are several things that BMW did at the last minute to cut costs.

For example, there are press pictures with the chrome handles (which means they were taken 03'), which were curiously absent from the launch (04') but returned after much criticism about the quality of the interior (for MY 05').

The same occurred with the two tone dash. Plastics in the dash (changed from press pics, to 04' and again in 05') and the carpeting (not matching in 04', matching in 05'). BMW I guess felt it could get away with extra cost cutting at the last minute.

Its good that BMW has realized its mistake, and 07 will feature many improvements. As well as Adrian von Hyoodonk saying that future BMW models will have exceptional interiors (laughed at audi interiors if i recall correctly).

So hopefully the future is bright, and BMW will spend a little more $$ on its future interiors. As long as the driving experience is still there, I will be satisfied.
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  #26  
Old 07-27-2006, 11:07 PM
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Same goes for the window switches. They were mounted on a piece of plastic that was not matching in the '04s (basically black plastic) which looks out of place with a gray interior like mine. In '05 they mounted the switch on gray plastic. However, BMW has yet to solve the problem with unlit rear-window switches. In fact, nothing is lit back there! Not the switches or the cig-lighter......and the back seat is crap too.

(The back seat isn't the place to be in a BMW.........but when you carry passengers its nice to not have them accidently push the window switch)
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  #27  
Old 07-28-2006, 04:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AzNMpower32
Same goes for the window switches. They were mounted on a piece of plastic that was not matching in the '04s (basically black plastic) which looks out of place with a gray interior like mine. In '05 they mounted the switch on gray plastic. However, BMW has yet to solve the problem with unlit rear-window switches. In fact, nothing is lit back there! Not the switches or the cig-lighter......and the back seat is crap too.

(The back seat isn't the place to be in a BMW.........but when you carry passengers its nice to not have them accidently push the window switch)
Very true about the window switches. The lack of form in the rear seats is another.

I don't think BMW mistakingly forgot to light the back switches - it just the extensive penny pinching stage that the X3 went through...
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