Rear Brake Lines Rusted Out - Anyone replace the hard lines with Stainless Steel?

[RonVF]

Originally Posted by bcredliner

Depending on how much the subframe has to be dropped that may be an area that a one piece line would be the less complicated way to go.

Agreed and why I am now planing to go the route of Calipsoe..
Short of a Mushroom flaring tool (I have the bubble) I am ready to give the one continuos run a try. And the NiCopp is much easier to bend by hand.

[Calipsoe]

Originally Posted by RonVF

Wow! Great write up! I have been searching the web for information just like this. Had the left rear line on my wife's 2006 X5 (198k)blow under the drivers door, last weekend. Cars in the garage up on jacks, panels are off and I purchased all new lines from the ABS back to the calipers from BMW for $400. Once I saw the lines were not pre bent I got a little concerned. Called the 2 local dealers here in Albany NY and one quoted me 12 hours labor at $135 per hour and the other quoted 9 hours at $127 an hour.. So now I'm in the middle of trying to do the repair myself.
I tried bending the new oem steel line off the ABS myself but that thing has so many complex bends I screwed it all up. As a precaution I did purchase 2 25foot rolls of the NiCopp along with fittings and a bubble flaring tool from Napa. Now reading your post Calipsoe, I see that the ends are mushroom and not bubble.. Not sure how that will work or where to purchase the one you referenced. Here is my question or questions. If I run the continuous 25 ft, did you start at the back and work forward or in the front and work back? Also you mentioned how you bent at the rear, near the rubber lines but how about all the other bends including the wheel well before the ABS? Did you ge the new line placed into all the line clips including the one that crosses over to the right rear?
Your Warning is exactly what I found to be true. I didn't want to repair just the broken line only to have it fail somewhere else. This is my wife's vehicle and she isn't very good at hearing or seeing the warnings, like low brake fluid.. Fortunately I was driving it last week when the line ruptured.
Thank you for telling us about those little plastic retainers also, I'm sure I would have been trying to figure out how to get the old ones back in..
Much appreciated!

WOW those quotes are exactly what I had anticipated. And they are giving you back the same headache with the steel lines.

To start off I ran my lines from back to front. That seemed to work pretty well. You might be able to cheat with the bubble flares because the nut may crush the bubble into a mushroom once it is tightened. But I wasnt taking any chances.

First thing to do is make the flare on one end of the tubing. Make sure you have the retaining nut on the tubing before making the flare. If the flare doesnt look uniform or is off center cut it off and try it again. Once I got a nice flare I took a little steel wool and polished up the end a little to make it smooth.

To run the Right Rear (RR) line I started at the front of the Left Rear (LR) wheel well and fed a portion of the line from the coil under the trunk over to the RR. Make sure you feed it across using the same route as the original line. Working from the RR side I pulled some extra line straight through and used the bending tool for the first 180 degree bend (about 1.5-2" diameter) that runs to the connector on the rubber brake line. Make sure that first bend matches the original because you dont want it sticking out into the wheel well and hitting the tire. After that I pushed some of the line back to the RL side and then pulled it back while making the 2nd and 3rd bends and positioning the line by hand. This was done to get around the rear shock tower. The NiCopp is pliable for re positioning the line. Then I connected the new hard line to the rubber brake line. Make sure you put the tubing into the bushings that are connected to the body under the trunk...or at least make sure the line will fit the bushings if you decide to do it later. And there is also a hidden captive bushing right at the front of the LR wheel well that holds both LR and RR lines.

Now that the RR side is connected in the rear you can run the rest of the line up to the engine bay again following the route of the original line. I had left some extra slack in the line under the driver side passage way in case I needed it later (I didn't). I also left a little extra line running up to the ABS block in case I had to do a couple flares to get a good one and then just made the bends going into the ABS block bigger to take up the slack. And I didn't cut the line off the coil until I was all the way up to the ABS block just to make sure I didn't cut it short. You also want to make sure your bends at the ABS block wont hit the air box when it is put back in place. I ended up just making hand bends at the ABS block since they were sufficient.

The RL line is a little less complicated and should be fairly easy once you've done the RR. I used the same procedure running one end of the coil from the front of the LR wheel well back to the LR rubber line connector and then running the rest of the coil to the engine bay.
Running the new lines only took me 2-3 hours at best and I took my time. Also my hand bends are not perfect but nobody is going to see them anyway.

Also your probably going to need the GT1/DIS software + cable and an older laptop to do a proper brake bleed once all the lines are connected. See my earlier post on that. Get those tools together now.

[RonVF]

Originally Posted by Calipsoe

WOW those quotes are exactly what I had anticipated. And they are giving you back the same headache with the steel lines.

To start off I ran my lines from back to front. That seemed to work pretty well. You might be able to cheat with the bubble flares because the nut may crush the bubble into a mushroom once it is tightened. But I wasnt taking any chances.

First thing to do is make the flare on one end of the tubing. Make sure you have the retaining nut on the tubing before making the flare. If the flare doesnt look uniform or is off center cut it off and try it again. Once I got a nice flare I took a little steel wool and polished up the end a little to make it smooth.

To run the Right Rear (RR) line I started at the front of the Left Rear (LR) wheel well and fed a portion of the line from the coil under the trunk over to the RR. Make sure you feed it across using the same route as the original line. Working from the RR side I pulled some extra line straight through and used the bending tool for the first 180 degree bend (about 1.5-2" diameter) that runs to the connector on the rubber brake line. Make sure that first bend matches the original because you dont want it sticking out into the wheel well and hitting the tire. After that I pushed some of the line back to the RL side and then pulled it back while making the 2nd and 3rd bends and positioning the line by hand. This was done to get around the rear shock tower. The NiCopp is pliable for re positioning the line. Then I connected the new hard line to the rubber brake line. Make sure you put the tubing into the bushings that are connected to the body under the trunk...or at least make sure the line will fit the bushings if you decide to do it later. And there is also a hidden captive bushing right at the front of the LR wheel well that holds both LR and RR lines.

Now that the RR side is connected in the rear you can run the rest of the line up to the engine bay again following the route of the original line. I had left some extra slack in the line under the driver side passage way in case I needed it later (I didn't). I also left a little extra line running up to the ABS block in case I had to do a couple flares to get a good one and then just made the bends going into the ABS block bigger to take up the slack. And I didn't cut the line off the coil until I was all the way up to the ABS block just to make sure I didn't cut it short. You also want to make sure your bends at the ABS block wont hit the air box when it is put back in place. I ended up just making hand bends at the ABS block since they were sufficient.

The RL line is a little less complicated and should be fairly easy once you've done the RR. I used the same procedure running one end of the coil from the front of the LR wheel well back to the LR rubber line connector and then running the rest of the coil to the engine bay.
Running the new lines only took me 2-3 hours at best and I took my time. Also my hand bends are not perfect but nobody is going to see them anyway.

Also your probably going to need the GT1/DIS software + cable and an older laptop to do a proper brake bleed once all the lines are connected. See my earlier post on that. Get those tools together now.

Okay, that write up is almost to the tee what I did yesterday. So much easier then what BMW was proposing. That little tool from Harbor freight was perfect for those tight 180 degree bends, plus I bought their bending pliers that helped with some of the other bends. I got it all hooked up last night about 10:00 PM and if I had to do it again I think I Could do it in 1/4 of the time I just spent.. The Bubble fittings seem to be working fine and I did a leak down test with soap on all the connections. Only leak I had was with the Motive power bleeder..which freaked me out when I saw the press gauge dropping.. I thought I had a leaking fitting. My guess is that the line is soft enough and when you tighten they seal just fine. I bought the bubble tool from NAPA for $90.00 but would rather have the one you referenced.. I am still in the process of bleeding all the air out (I don't have the software to open the ABS) (do have a cable and old laptop...) But according to Bavarian Auto, you shouldn't need to open the ABS to bleed?? I'll be heading back to the garage shortly and will let you know..
I was at my local dealer today and the parts guy said they had an X5 in the shop now getting the lines replaced.. Said it was major labor and the bending was what takes so long...I told him what I did and he thought that was great, just not something BMW could endorse.. He then offered to take back the lines I didn't use and not charge the usual 20% restocking fee... Oh and the retaining pins were on $0.74 each at the dealer..
Thanks for your write up and insight. This just saved me about $1000.
If your ever in the Albany/Saratoga NY area, let me know, I'll buy you a beer or two..

[RonVF]

Update..
I got everything connected an bled but I'm not liking the way the pedal feels, seems a little spongy.. I haven't put the wheel back on yet or given it a road test, mainly because I don't want to take it off the jack stands until I know for sure I have a good pedal. I was hoping the Carly for BMW software would run the ABS pump but I am not seeing it so I quests I'll have to either find someone local that can bleed for me or purchase the cord and software and wait for it to arrive..ugh!

[Calipsoe]

Sorry I posted the info too late but once you have the concept the installation is really not too difficult. Glad to hear you got the install done.

Good thing the dealer let you return the unused lines. They are outrageously expensive for what they are. If they were pre-bent I might argue the $400 price is fair for a dealer. But considering you can get 50' of 3/16" NiCopp and tools to make the flares and bends for less than $200 and you'll never have a rusted or corroded line again it's a no brainer.

I did a couple power bleeds without activating the ABS and I got unsatisfactory results. I figured I had a lot of air in the system because it sat for a couple weeks before I could tackle the job. Something I may not have mentioned is after the first bleed I did take it down off the jack stands and out for a test drive. The pedal was mushy and I only had about 20% braking power. I took it to a gravel parking lot and locked up the brakes to activate the ABS several times. Then I put it back up on jack stands and bled it again but unfortunately that wasn't enough to break the air bubbles loose in the ABS system. It wasn't until I used the software and ran the ABS 4x sequentially on each line while power bleeding and got a bunch of air out of the RR line then I knew I was good. Now the pedal feel is great.

If you have the cable and a laptop maybe you can download the software and get it running without too much fuss. This website is kinda dead but maybe it will lead you in the right direction. BMW GT1, OPS/OPPS, INPA - BMW forum. Diagnostics, coding, programming, repair BMW vehicles.

FWIW I bought a package (cable & software) off ebay from Bulgaria and it took about 2 weeks to arrive. Make sure you can install VMware on your laptop or else you'll need a different machine with a processor that supports virtualization.

[RonVF]

Well it looks like I do need to open the ABS to bleed mode and I refuse to take the vehicle off the jack stands until I get everything right so with that said I ordered the Foxwell NT510 scan tool instead of trying to install software on an old computer and plus having to wait for the cable to arrive. I ordered the unit on Amazon last night at 10:00 PM and it arrives tomorrow. It was a bit pricey but I am still about $900 ahead of having the dealer do this repair..

[CapeX5]

Originally Posted by RonVF

Well it looks like I do need to open the ABS to bleed mode and I refuse to take the vehicle off the jack stands until I get everything right so with that said I ordered the Foxwell NT510 scan tool instead of trying to install software on an old computer and plus having to wait for the cable to arrive. I ordered the unit on Amazon last night at 10:00 PM and it arrives tomorrow. It was a bit pricey but I am still about $900 ahead of having the dealer do this repair..

Ron, I am VERY interested to see if you are able to activate the ABS with this scanner. I read the amazon reviews and they were mostly positive. But I didn't see anywhere it mentions ABS activation. Please keep us posted on how this works out. If it goes well, I am getting one asap! Thanks

[RonVF]

Originally Posted by CapeX5

Ron, I am VERY interested to see if you are able to activate the ABS with this scanner. I read the amazon reviews and they were mostly positive. But I didn't see anywhere it mentions ABS activation. Please keep us posted on how this works out. If it goes well, I am getting one asap! Thanks

Okay, vehicle is out of the garage and the Foxwell NT510 gets you to the ABS bleed mode with just a couple of clicks. Pretty simple tool to use. Comes preloaded with the correct software for BMW if that's what you order.

I cycled thru the bleed procedure probably 4-5 times and definitely got air out the first several times. Pedal is much better but I think it still seems maybe a little, very little, spongy, but I also just put New pads and rotors on the front which need to be broken in and the rear pads are getting near the end of life so I'm sure it will get better. Plus I'm comparing how the X5 feels compaired to my 545 sport... I'll be ordering new rear pads and rotors and will see if it gets more solid. Bottom line, with the help from this forum, especially Calipsoe, everyone else that post on here and the NT510 I would say I saved probably $900 but more importantly, both rear lines are now replaced and I won't have to worry about my wife's safety..
Thanks all.

[Calipsoe]

Glad to hear you are back in business! Good idea to pick up the NT510 to get done quickly.

The GT1/DIS gives you a procedure to follow. For each line you:

1. open the bleed valve
2. cycle the ABS
3. gently pump the pedal 5 times
4. close the bleed valve

Did you do the pedal pump 5 times? That might be what you need to do to guarantee you have flushed all of the air out of the system. You may want to re-bleed it when you get a chance using the above procedure.

I have found this board a valuable resource for getting my X back into tip-top shape after some minor neglect by the previous owner. Glad I could finally make a contribution.

[RonVF]

No, I didn't do it exactly as you reference, however it was close, I didn't have the bleeder valve open when recycling the ABS. I'll need to purchase more fluid to do it that way. The 2 liters I bought are almost gone.. I have been driving it now and they feel pretty good so I'm thinking when I replace the rear pads and rotors, I'll do another bleed.
I also planning to pick up the cable and software you referenced, especially now that I'm not in a hurry..
Thanks again for sharing.