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  #91  
Old 10-11-2017, 07:16 PM
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Battery not charging (but battery light not on)

Not sure anybody said replace just test to confim. Load testing at a battery store is good. Charge overnight and watch the voltage during cranking is poor man's load testing.

If it can't crank with a full charge it's either the battery or cable/terminal problem
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  #92  
Old 10-11-2017, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by andrewwynn View Post
Not sure anybody said replace just test to confim. Load testing at a battery store is good. Charge overnight and watch the voltage during cranking is poor man's load testing.

If it can't crank with a full charge it's either the battery or cable/terminal problem
The voltage drop after charging all night and trying to start it is not the same as a load test. If it doesn't crank when the battery is fully charged does not narrow it down to the battery or the cable/terminal problem. Among other potential causes of not cranking when the battery is fully charged is a bad ignition switch that can cause the vehicle to crank sometimes and not others.
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  #93  
Old 10-12-2017, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by bcredliner View Post
OP- strongly suggest you stay on a single issue until it is resolved.

....

When a battery sits for an extended period of time

....

Another way is to recondition a battery is to connect it to another vehicle and leave it connected for 24 yours. During that time don't start either vehicle.

Once again, eliminate the battery as the cause of your problem-NOW. What you have done thus far has not eliminated the battery as the problem.
Yep I totally agree with all you've said and again thank you for this expertise.

Just to clarify so there's no confusion- I have not bought a new battery. I just tested one out.

The car sat, without starting, for about 4 months. I had the positive terminal disconnected (in the engine bay) and the negative (in the trunk).

Are you saying I can recondition (and charge) my battery by connecting to another car for 24 hours? Without the other car running?
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  #94  
Old 10-12-2017, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by bcredliner View Post
The voltage drop after charging all night and trying to start it is not the same as a load test. If it doesn't crank when the battery is fully charged does not narrow it down to the battery or the cable/terminal problem. Among other potential causes of not cranking when the battery is fully charged is a bad ignition switch that can cause the vehicle to crank sometimes and not others.

Cranking and measuring the voltage drop is exactly a load test. The load is the starter motor. It's not as detailed as the machine that will measure the amp capacity but it will let you know if the battery is shot

OP indicated it starts fine when jumped removing ignition switch and starter from the suspect list.

This leaves the battery and cables I can think of nothing else since when a working battery is added to the equation problem solved.

There are likely other problems but have to confirm the battery is shot then go from there one item at a time
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Old 10-12-2017, 06:59 AM
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Actually that doesn't remove the ignition switch or the starter from the list just because it starts when jumped off.

That's one thing that took my awhile to figure out the ignition switch was bad on my x5. I had forgotten the symptoms I had with the ignition switch on my e46 being about the same but since I knew the e46 had a good battery and knew the x5 had a bad battery or at least weak I figured it was all battery on the x5 with the starting problem I was having.

When the voltage was down to 12.2 or lower it would not crank at times. All the symptoms of a bad battery. If the voltage was 12.3 and above it always cranked.

The ignition switch was bad. Once the ignition switch was replaced it would crank just fine even down at 11.8 volts.

As for the starter a bad starter that's dragging and drawing to many amps will make a battery look bad by only successfully cranking when jumped. It used to be a much more common problem in the past than it is now but a bad starter (as in failing) can cause the same issues.

The ignition switch is simple to diagnose once you have experience with it on a bmw. If you turn the key and the lights come on but NOTHING happens when you try to start it and you have at least 11 volts its the ignition switch. That's kind of broad diagnoses wise and with any other car I wouldn't lump it in like that but so far its been the cause on about 8 different bmw's I have fixed by changing the switch out. I mean it could be security related blah blah blah but so far its been dead on with the ones I have worked on that were running fine then went out.
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  #96  
Old 10-12-2017, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by andrewwynn View Post
Cranking and measuring the voltage drop is exactly a load test. The load is the starter motor. It's not as detailed as the machine that will measure the amp capacity but it will let you know if the battery is shot

OP indicated it starts fine when jumped removing ignition switch and starter from the suspect list.

This leaves the battery and cables I can think of nothing else since when a working battery is added to the equation problem solved.

There are likely other problems but have to confirm the battery is shot then go from there one item at a time
No it is not. A load test calculates the amount of time it takes for CCA to get to half of the rating and the battery recovery time.

I just offered another cause and can provide more. Jump starting does not prove the ignition switch is good or bad. The switch has points. Depending on the key position certain points must be closed. Over time the points closing ramps wear or the points corrode resulting in starting issues and/or the appearance of battery problem.
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Old 10-12-2017, 12:51 PM
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The symptom wasn't described as intermittent starts it was described as *never starts* without a jump. If jumping makes it start normally (always) it's not the ignition switch.

I've already said that diy load testing was a "poor man's load test". It's just to get a clue if you are on the right track. If the voltage drops to 6v on a start attempt you don't need to bother testing on the bench it's shot.

OP said it won't start without a jump but it sounds like he never charged the battery either. Hence my description of how to test the battery diy before taking in to the store: charge overnight and measure the voltage dip when starting the next day.
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Old 10-12-2017, 12:56 PM
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Battery not charging (but battery light not on)

Crowez that is very interesting feedback.

You can test the battery by putting on a load such as the high beam headlights which should maybe drop from 12.6 to 12.3 with a healthy battery. If I get a chance I'll measure mine and post. If turning on the headlights drops the voltage below 12 the battery is likely toast. Doing that simple test can give everyone a helpful battery health check. 2-3 times a year measure the voltage drop from high plus low beams especially when very cold out. Having a baseline to compare you can tell if it's getting worse before you get stranded

You really need to actually charge the battery. Pick up or borrow a charger to charge it up and then you should take in and get it load tested. If you do a poor man's test and the car starts and seems to work fine you may be setting yourself up for failure when the ambient temperature falls. There is a reason they say CCA or cold cranking amps. Batteries are significantly lower power when cold.
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Last edited by andrewwynn; 10-12-2017 at 01:18 PM.
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  #99  
Old 10-12-2017, 01:31 PM
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Actually that doesn't remove the ignition switch or the starter from the list just because it starts when jumped off.

That's one thing that took my awhile to figure out the ignition switch was bad on my x5. I had forgotten the symptoms I had with the ignition switch on my e46 being about the same but since I knew the e46 had a good battery and knew the x5 had a bad battery or at least weak I figured it was all battery on the x5 with the starting problem I was having.

When the voltage was down to 12.2 or lower it would not crank at times. All the symptoms of a bad battery. If the voltage was 12.3 and above it always cranked.

The ignition switch was bad. Once the ignition switch was replaced it would crank just fine even down at 11.8 volts.

As for the starter a bad starter that's dragging and drawing to many amps will make a battery look bad by only successfully cranking when jumped. It used to be a much more common problem in the past than it is now but a bad starter (as in failing) can cause the same issues.

The ignition switch is simple to diagnose once you have experience with it on a bmw. If you turn the key and the lights come on but NOTHING happens when you try to start it and you have at least 11 volts its the ignition switch. That's kind of broad diagnoses wise and with any other car I wouldn't lump it in like that but so far its been the cause on about 8 different bmw's I have fixed by changing the switch out. I mean it could be security related blah blah blah but so far its been dead on with the ones I have worked on that were running fine then went out.
The problem with a single symptom diagnosis of an ignition switch is that at the start of the failure the symptoms are not consistent and also intermittent. Sometimes there are no lights and no click sometimes it clicks, sometimes vehicle starts normally.

First step when there is a starting problem is to have a professional load test done or buy the equipment that will follow the same procedure.

If the battery passes the test and the engine will start, monitor the alternator output at an idle for a several minutes to see if voltage jumps around and at say 2000 rpms to see it holds steady there for several minutes.

Then check voltage to the starter when it won't crank. If no voltage to the starter when the key is in the start position even though that is not testing the starter independently it is on to the ignition switch.

Best practice is to test the ignition switch to see if there is voltage when the key is in the start position but the symptoms are usually still intermittent. Based on the ignition switch being a part that wears out, if the switch has been in place for say 75,000 miles, the symptoms align with failing ignition switch, the battery and the alternator passed the tests, I just replace the ignition switch because it is now at the top of the list of potential causes, the cost of the switch is not that much, it is easy to do, even if ended up being preventative maintenance. Since the ignition switch ramps are plastic and wear down, the switch, don't try to repair it.
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  #100  
Old 10-12-2017, 01:32 PM
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That is textbook service advice


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