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  #151  
Old 10-19-2017, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by upallnight View Post

As 44 once told the Republican Party, if they bring a knife to a fight, we'll bring a gun.

As Sean Connery said in the Movie "The Untouchable" you don't bring a knife to a gun fight.
That is incredibly astute to point out the most liberal president ever used that exact example. Could not possibly get more back to your [Chicago] roots than that.

Indiana Jones didn't say it he just did it. I guess that makes him Republican?
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  #152  
Old 10-19-2017, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by blakamin View Post
This is my last word on this subject.

Bold is mine too...

HOW does that work when "self defense" or "home defense" are your excuse for having one in the first place?
The point of this thread is to answer that question, the answer is a quick-access SAFE. Very few gun owners have defense as their first place reason for owning a gun. A growing number of people ARE getting a gun primarily as a self-defense largely in part to the over-hyped mass shooting incidents.

Considering that about as many die from gun violence in chicago every 5 weeks in chicago alone, but other than the weekly report every monday of how many were shot (and sometimes it's 50-70 people) in local papers, it's really never in the news.
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  #153  
Old 10-19-2017, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by blakamin View Post
Ahh, that's where you got me wrong. A gun safe is a brilliant idea, guns for "self defense" aren't.
The (somewhere between 100,000 and 5,000,000) cases of a defensive gun use in the usa will get many or most to disagree with your opinion.

Media bias as a jumping off point and that only 'dirty laundry' will get airtime, the vast majority of cases where a handgun is used for defense will not even be reported. A wanna-be mugger pulls a knife (or a gun), a would-be victim pulls his gun, and the attacker runs away. That's how it usually goes down; the % is very hard to pin down as most of those cases do not get reported.

Honestly i was surprised to see the numbers as high as they are but the LOWEST estimates are about 50,000 and a honest reporting likely is in the 1 million range. So; about 1 million times a year in the usa, somebody uses a gun in self defense. There aren't a million gun deaths or even injuries, so that bodes well for the self-defense case.

You can find links to plenty of studies on the DGU page of wikipedia
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  #154  
Old 10-19-2017, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by andrewwynn View Post
The (somewhere between 100,000 and 5,000,000) cases of a defensive gun use in the usa will get many or most to disagree with your opinion.

Media bias as a jumping off point and that only 'dirty laundry' will get airtime, the vast majority of cases where a handgun is used for defense will not even be reported. A wanna-be mugger pulls a knife (or a gun), a would-be victim pulls his gun, and the attacker runs away. That's how it usually goes down; the % is very hard to pin down as most of those cases do not get reported.

Honestly i was surprised to see the numbers as high as they are but the LOWEST estimates are about 50,000 and a honest reporting likely is in the 1 million range. So; about 1 million times a year in the usa, somebody uses a gun in self defense. There aren't a million gun deaths or even injuries, so that bodes well for the self-defense case.

You can find links to plenty of studies on the DGU page of wikipedia
Not to mention when normal citizens use guns to hold escaped prisoners till the police can come get them. If you think the guy with the gun would of been safe from the escaped convict if he didn't have a gun I feel very sorry for you.

This isn't something made up this happened last month when prisoners escaped in Georgia. Google it.

Guns have been used for self defense for years even in countries that outlaw gun ownership. In the non gun countries people keep shotguns and such for hunting. England for example. There are tons of examples of self defense cases in those countries involving the hunting guns.

So having a gun for self defense makes perfect sense. Just make me thankful everyday for the country I live in and the constitution that protects me and my family.
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  #155  
Old 10-19-2017, 03:00 PM
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Who's main goal is preventing a person from shooting/killing 60 people? It's a distraction and in the big picture a fruitless effort. You are literally saying that 1% of people are more important than the other 99%.
I said nothing about focusing on mass murders. I would never suggest that mass shootings should be ignored. Discussions of new gun control laws would identify both where the two sides have consensus and what can effectively be legislated and make the biggest impact on the gun problem. We can guess where the focus should but that is all it is.

My contention is if you care about people do that which helps people. No attempt to do anything to help that 1% will help human kind as a whole. Do literally just about anything else and you will do more good.

I'm not missing the point I've covered it and moved on. Point is: mass shootings happen and kill a very small part of the population on rare occasion. Fact. Will not change just a fact.

Related point: firearms are used to kill people, accept that is bad, so using a mass shooting as an eye opener maybe divert that attention to a cause that *can* do good and logically that would mean some firearm related injury. Hence, look where the highest percentage of firearm deaths are: suicide, then drug/gang related deaths. These are causes that anybody can get behind and that actually could save 1000s or 10s of 1000s of lives per year.

Mass murders create emotion and sense of urgency. There are always cries to do something about mass murders that make the headlines but what doesn't make the news much is those that site we need to seriously look at further gun control, not exclusive to the mass killings.

In a theoretical case of eliminating all mass shootings you will reduce gun homicide by less than 1/2 of 1% while likely not reducing homicide at all. Removing the gun from the equation will just make the homicidal person to find another solution.

In the USA it has to be assumed you must start with the "given" that free people will always have guns so it's pointless to use an example of other countries that have decided (or had decided for them) they wanted to give away (or was stolen from them) one of their most awe inspiring freedoms. It's a right to trade freedom for civility but by a strong margin the USA draws the line at firearms. Will more people die from firearms because of this choice? Duh.

There in nothing in the definition of freedom that states in order to be free you must be able to own guns.

what definition of civility are you using?When attempting to find solutions to a problem there can be no assumptions.

There is not nothing being done, example of laws added in my lifetime: in 1981, Wisconsin enacted a law that makes it illegal for anybody with a felony on their record to posses a firearm.

In case you are saying the only law that has changed was in Wisconsin---many states and cities have change laws. Some have relaxed the law, some have made them tighter.

(A fairly clear violation of 2nd amendment since there are plenty of non violent felonies that make it illegal to hunt for the rest of your life). Did that law help reduce gun violence? Perhaps, but not a lot since virtually nobody even knows about this law. It will prevent an ex felon from buying a handgun because of a background check but it unfairly removes rights do to unrelated situations.

Firearm laws will keep good people from randomly flipping out it's the entire premise behind a waiting period for a handgun to make revenge shooting more difficult but will never help reduce criminal use of firearms. It's the symptom not the cause. Want to improve the symptom do something about the cause.
It doesn't matter if the waiting period changes for the for only the those that flip out but if they are a problem it is a criminal act.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. My point is so many are tossing around statistics that are invalid or from a biased source as if it is documented fact and won't consider anything that is counter to what they want to believe. You have alluded to several changes in gun laws that you would endorse. That must mean to you there is a problem and there are some solutions that could be implemented. That would result in stricter gun laws.

As a side bar---For those that say they need guns to protect them from the government: Does anyone believe that if the federal government decided to take all guns away from citizens gun owners could stop it, in a democracy or otherwise?
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Last edited by bcredliner; 10-19-2017 at 03:25 PM.
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  #156  
Old 10-19-2017, 03:05 PM
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Senator David Leyonhjelm warns the US not to adopt Australia's gun control laws - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Quote:
Senator David Leyonhjelm warns the US not to adopt Australia's gun control laws
Quote:
Senator David Leyonhjelm has labelled Australia "a nation of victims" and discouraged the United States from following Australia's example on gun control.
Quote:
Senator Leyonhjelm told the NRA that Australia should not be a model for gun control, stating that John Howard's 1996 gun legislation - pushed through in the wake of the Port Arthur massacre - had made "no difference".
"We are a nation of victims," he said.
"You cannot own a gun for self defence ... the criminals still have guns. There's a very vigorous black market for guns, so it's not made the slightest bit of difference.
"If you want a gun, you can get one."
Hmm maybe things aren't as simple as we are led to believe with those gun control laws eh?
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  #157  
Old 10-19-2017, 03:10 PM
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https://www.theguardian.com/australi...ictims-senator

Quote:
Australia has been turned into a “nation of victims” by gun control laws, Liberal Democratic senator David Leyonhjelm believes.

He says this week’s Sydney cafe siege would have been less likely to happen if the gunman thought his hostages might be carrying concealed weapons.

“That nutcase who held them all hostage wouldn’t have known that they were armed and bad guys don’t like to be shot back at,” Senator Leyonhjelm told ABC radio on Thursday.

Instead, he says, “we are all disarmed victims” and that’s unacceptable.

Cafe hostages Tori Johnson and Katrina Dawson were reportedly shot by Man Haron Monis moments before police stormed the shop and killed the gunman in a hail of gunfire.




“It would have been illegal for them to have a knife, a stick, a pepper spray, a personal Taser, mace, anything like that for self-defence,” Senator Leyonhjelm said.

“To turn an entire population into a nation of victims is just unforgivable.”
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  #158  
Old 10-19-2017, 03:19 PM
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Category: | Herald Sun

'Gun Violence' Never Happens in 'Gun Free' Australia. Except When it Does - The Truth About Guns

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Now there’s a scenario for you: an unarmed defenseless father and five teenagers hiding from three intruders who’ve shown that they are ready, willing and able to use deadly force.
Thankfully, the home invaders left. They’re still at large. And Australians are still defenseless against armed criminals. Anyone care to repeat the Australian model of gun control here? The scary part? The answer to that question is yes.
I'll lay off the news quotes for now. Point is what we have works. I pray to god nothing changes law wise in the states concerning guns.

But that's my opinion and others are fully entitled to theirs.
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  #159  
Old 10-19-2017, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by bcredliner View Post

Yes, it is true there are great number of suicides using guns. The question is how did someone like that purchase or get access to a gun? Is there a reasonable change to gun laws that would help reduce the problem? That's a rhetorical question.
But it really isn't rhetorical, and it should be the question. I've seen a lot of talk about mind-altering Rx being involved where mass-shootings took place; worth looking into, yes please.
The states with "shall allow" CCW do not have significantly higher gun homicide than the other states, but might have higher suicide rates so that in my mind is even more important than the drug: gang violence.
I don't really need one; if there was a correlation between CCW in any state either better or worse to a statistically undeniable point it would be the biggest headline of the year for the mainstream media if it went against CCW and would be a bright red scrolling banner across the NRA's web page if it went in their favor. The absence of either means it didn't happen.
Doing something via gun laws to put grandpa in prison is gun control. That is an example where pro and con gun control laws might agree if there was ever a constructive interchange of views by those that could make the changes.
Agreed, it's why i wrote it. I've already said it's the parent's fault. If parents could parent we wouldn't have the problems that led to this discussion. I'm very ok with making the parents take some of the blame when their children commit crimes.
Each year the number of guns in America increases so each year the problem get bigger. How many innocent guns deaths does if take before those that don't think more gun control is necessary will consider change?
'the problem [sic] get bigger'; what problem is that? The gun homicide rate is basically unchanged in 20 years. The homicide rate overall is half what it was in the 90s. There is no 'emergency' regarding violent crime in the usa. Caution is advised because it has shown a minor up-tick in the past year or two and we need not go back to the rate it was. pro 2nd people will be fair to point out that violent crime rate has fallen during the period where every single state has passed CCW laws
First, you can't remove the top ten cities from the calculation. they are part of America. And, any comparison must be to the 1st world countries that have banned guns. It's not how much smaller the problem than the worst 3rd world countries, it is how much worse we are from the 1st world no guns countries.
If I can't for comparison discount 'the butt holes of america' to show 'what it could be', what on earth got you to conclude we should compare no-gun countries to the usa, that's straight up ignorant line of reasoning. We should only be compared to similar countries else it's not a comparison. I would probably beat a toddler in a fist fight too, but it would be asinine to consider the option.
I just stumbled into an interesting notion; compare the suicide rates of those non-gun countries. consider that most suicides in the usa are committed with a gun yet the non-gun countries are better at it than the usa. According to w.h.o., europe is the most suicidal region of the planet. Japan which gets to boast something like a 0.4 per 100k homicide rate doesn't apparently include self homicide which is nearly 20/ 100k! Twice as many people kill themselves than in the usa kill each other (rounding a bit; it was only 90% more in japan); w.h.o. data.
see above inline
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  #160  
Old 10-19-2017, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Crowz View Post
Category: | Herald Sun

'Gun Violence' Never Happens in 'Gun Free' Australia. Except When it Does - The Truth About Guns

I'll lay off the news quotes for now. Point is what we have works. I pray to god nothing changes law wise in the states concerning guns.

But that's my opinion and others are fully entitled to theirs.
Certainly everyone is entitled to their opinion but they are meaningless and counter productive if not factual.

The Senator's remarks do not represent the current conditions, was first posted in 2015. Since he was addressing the NRA they are certainly biased. His remarks are his opinion not based on the what the majority of the populations believes or wants. He has a long term history of being pro guns. What certainly invalidates his comments is that it makes no reference to what has happened to gun death statistics. That is the point.

The article you pulled up is anecdotal. That is one case out of how many? It could be a downside of no guns that needs to be addressed but what is most important to no guns law is if the result has reduced the number of gun related deaths.

Think about this---we haven't included innocent people wounded in mass killings. Just take Vegas alone and include the innocent people wounded. The reach of the mass killings and overall gun problem is many times more than those killed.

If you want to defend your position you need to have a study that includes 2016 figures, an unbiased, historically a longterm reputable source, a sample size that results in a very low error potential and post it so we can read it for ourselves rather than accept your interpretation. It's not even acceptable to pull numbers from an article that references a study without pulling up the study and look at the sampling, error potential and interpret the information on your own.

I'm not saying your position on gun control is wrong. I am saying the information you are using does not validate your position. That takes it back to only your opinion rather than one based on applicable facts.
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