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  #51  
Old 10-11-2017, 03:01 AM
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My 2 cents: Democide

This is the only statistic important in discussing gun rights by citizens. Total number of citizens killed by their own governments (democide) in the 20th century was 262 million. That's not including wars. Statistically a citizen has far more to fear from his government than criminals.

https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM
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  #52  
Old 10-11-2017, 05:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewwynn View Post
The primary point of the 2nd amendment is to make "we the people" a threat against a tyrannical government

WTF is taking you so long then???


Seriously, people in other countries look at the US and either laugh at your "from my cold dead hands" or/and think you're nucking futs for not doing anything when kids got murdered at school. All coz "cold dead hands".
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  #53  
Old 10-11-2017, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stiubhartach View Post
This is the only statistic important in discussing gun rights by citizens. Total number of citizens killed by their own governments (democide) in the 20th century was 262 million. That's not including wars. Statistically a citizen has far more to fear from his government than criminals.

https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM
Statistics are meaningless if the numbers used are not applicable to the issue.

Your reference is based on worldwide statistics and even worse over 100 years- not applicable to the US problem. Using comparisons of other causes of death are meaningless. It doesn't mean there is no problem with guns in US and it doesn't mean gun control laws are adequate.
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  #54  
Old 10-11-2017, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blakamin View Post
WTF is taking you so long then???


Seriously, people in other countries look at the US and either laugh at your "from my cold dead hands" or/and think you're nucking futs for not doing anything when kids got murdered at school. All coz "cold dead hands".


Bump stock company has sold more since Vegas than in the last two years. Many gun shops are already sold out. That means there will be more 'automatic' weapons that can get or already are in the wrong hands. Even the "cold dead hands" folks should want a law to make them illegal but that will not be the case. NRA has already taken a position they are fine and should remain legal to own.
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  #55  
Old 10-11-2017, 10:56 PM
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NRA has already taken a position they are fine and should remain legal to own.
“The NRA believes that devices designed to allow semi-automatic rifles to function like fully-automatic rifles should be subject to additional regulations,” read a statement issued by the powerful organization Thursday.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/power...=.3c66eedf1d03
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  #56  
Old 10-11-2017, 11:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stiubhartach View Post
This is the only statistic important in discussing gun rights by citizens. Total number of citizens killed by their own governments (democide) in the 20th century was 262 million. That's not including wars. Statistically a citizen has far more to fear from his government than criminals.

https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM
That statistic has nothing to do with the topic at hand as bcredliner said. Now, if you cited a statistic showing how many Americans were killed by the US government you might be able to support your argument. Emphasis on the might.

I fear a lone gangbanger road rage incident involving a firearm FAR more than I fear the feds banging down my door and shooting me.
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  #57  
Old 10-12-2017, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overboost View Post
“The NRA believes that devices designed to allow semi-automatic rifles to function like fully-automatic rifles should be subject to additional regulations,” read a statement issued by the powerful organization Thursday.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/power...=.3c66eedf1d03
The modified position is that the NRA won't appose review of the legality of bump stocks. Realizing they can't defend bump stocks because of Vegas, they wisely took a neutral position. Great strategy, don't get involved in the bump stock battle so it doesn't fuel a war to expand gun control or against the NRA.
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  #58  
Old 10-12-2017, 02:48 PM
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I think ATF dropped the ball. They could have allowed the bump stock as long as they tracked who bought them and how many. People that want to stay off governmental radar can choose not to buy them. Buying one should put you in a special class maybe you have to pay a special license fee and register the item. It can't be un invented so where to go from here? Including all "mass shootings" overall it is a very low risk situation and blown completely out of proportion. If you want to reduce gun violence look into where 90% is not where 0.3% is. Black on black drug/gang violence is the vast majority of gun crime and no law will ever change that. The environment that creates the situation must be changed: keep families together mom + dad, improve education, stop telling everybody they must go to college or they are worth less (most important jobs in the usa do not need college: plumber, electrician, carpenter; you know all the people that literally build America) get people into apprentice programs and get them real careers. Get them to be dedicated to family so they can teach their kids by example so their kids will do the same. It will take generations for this to really take effect but a drastic change could be seen in one generation.
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  #59  
Old 10-12-2017, 06:10 PM
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Sounds like you are proposing a gun control law which is the whole point of this discussion. A bump stock is just one of the issues that should be at least objectively and rationally discussed.

Regardless of the circumstances, or challenging statistics, the number of innocent victims of gun violence is too high. The is no statistic that is validation for not attempting to do something. That is unless unless that the deaths of innocent people is at an acceptable level of collateral damage.

The basis for the NRA not entering into any gun control law discussion is they say they believe and have pounded into their membership that if there is a one law passed to tighten gun control we will start down a slippery slope toward taking all guns from US citizens by not only laws but changes to the 2nd amendment. I see it as a strategy not something that they actually believe.
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  #60  
Old 10-12-2017, 10:51 PM
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Letter of vs essence of the law: if it's illegal to buy or retool a semi automatic weapon any reasonable person should see that adding and external device that mimics that action should be at least a special case.

The main and almost entire problem with the "less guns" crowd is the amazing level of either ignorance or deception they will use to try to convince people to come to their side of the argument

The pro gun side re; bump stocks: yes it looks like the ATF should have done it differently. We will wait to see what they come up with before we chime in because it's not our job to classify it's exactly their job.

The anti-gun crowd on the other hand eg Nancy Pelosi literally said she hopes reviewing bump stocks will slippery slope into repossession of all Americans firearms. (and they wonder why there's such a strong push to not add any gun laws: the pro gun side doesn't have to speculate about the desire of the left to confiscate our guns, they openly admit it at the highest level of government)

I partly agree about the added laws and NRA but with plenty of anti gun people who write the laws and admit they want to confiscate guns you have to lean toward NRA winning the argument that you can't trust they lawmakers.

I said it before I fault the ATF to not decide not to classify a bump stock as something inherently more dangerous.

It would make sense to for example wrap owning one into the CCW permit. If you can carry at least in Wi it permits you to carry other things like knife or pepper spray or Taser. People with CCW are a different class of

The main things desired for anti gun crowd have not shown to be helpful in any of the places where they have been implemented have failed that's why the ignorantly biased "assault gun ban" was allowed to sunset, it didn't change things.

There are a few absolutes in the pro gun side: absolutely no additional law with the smallest hint of registration is a big one and no law limiting any sane non felon from owning a gun in any location in the usa.
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