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  #41  
Old 03-19-2019, 07:31 PM
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No cure for intermittent. That said, a charger/tester like that 7002 will do as bc pointed out, run the 7002 on a battery and you are not likely to get a false test, as it will pre-trial and remove surface charge. All tools are falible that's a primary motivation for me to use common sense "have on hand" tests and solutions.

Does everybody have a 7002? Nope. Does everybody have a high beam headlight and a clock? Yep.

-awr
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  #42  
Old 03-19-2019, 08:20 PM
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Your responses and paraphrasing are not what I said. I accept I am not making myself clear even though I've tried several times. Doesn't matter.

FYI it is not necessary to load test with the 7002. The CTEK does a full analysis of the battery. If there is a problem with the battery the unit will stop the charging cycle and a red error led comes on. If that happens I try the reconditioning mode especially if the battery has been completely discharged. If the error light comes on again the battery is bad.
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Last edited by bcredliner; 03-19-2019 at 08:35 PM.
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  #43  
Old 03-19-2019, 08:57 PM
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I've gotten Walmart EverStart H8 AGM units for $149.

A great deal plus tax and $15 core fee

https://www.walmart.com/ip/EverStart...up-h8/40647529

Mike
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  #44  
Old 03-22-2019, 07:02 PM
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Bcred, thanks for your comments. If Andrewwyn had a case based on facts then it is worthwhile recording here. You may disagree (and it is worthwhile writing that) but there is the fact that equipment built for testing is only as good as the overall knowledge gone into designing it. It is not uncommon for updates to be made to equipment when new problems are discovered (igoring the operators fault). Even though equipment may have gone into years/decades of testing. I am far from the knowlege behind these but it is good to read anything out of the ordinary in these forums to assist. Andrewwyn, without seeing the total setup, method, etc. of the occurance there all we can do is take your word that it wasn’t something else but again it is more than worthwhile posting it to this forum in case someone else has the same problem. Thanks to you both and hope that I have not stood on your toes. It would be quite easy as I am 6’8” with big feet...)
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  #45  
Old 03-22-2019, 09:07 PM
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I think (and still not sure) that it came off that I said you would "have to" do some testing on your own to determine the end of life state is a battery. I was simply saying that the normal process that 95% of people will do (charge up your battery take to a battery store and get a load test done) can report a false negative (that battery is good but isn't). for *whatever* reason.

I was saying it happened to me about a year ago. I've worked a LOT with batteries including designed and built battery chargers, I was stumped so I shared my story because if it happened to me It will happen to others.

I simply said : "if the same happens to you, here is a possible route to take".
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  #46  
Old 03-23-2019, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewwynn View Post
I think (and still not sure) that it came off that I said you would "have to" do some testing on your own to determine the end of life state is a battery. I was simply saying that the normal process that 95% of people will do (charge up your battery take to a battery store and get a load test done) can report a false negative (that battery is good but isn't). for *whatever* reason.

I was saying it happened to me about a year ago. I've worked a LOT with batteries including designed and built battery chargers, I was stumped so I shared my story because if it happened to me It will happen to others.

I simply said : "if the same happens to you, here is a possible route to take".
Not challenging what happened to you and doesn't matter to me what route anyone takes or what if any charger/tester they have. In my pea brain a load test is a capacity test. https://www.freeasestudyguides.com/b...-tests-a1.html You can test it with low load for a longer period of time or a greater load for a shorter period of time. I see it as apples to apples. Both tests are on a fully charged battery and based on battery specs. If a bad battery can pass a properly done greater load for shorter period of time capacity test, why don't they do a small load for a longer period time rather than risk losing a battery sale or irritating a customer? Why would any MFG design a commercial battery tester that didn't do the slow method rather than the fast one? Don't get that at all.

If the only reason one needs a charger/tester is to see if a battery is bad every 4 years or so I can see why there is no need to have one. I wouldn't think of them as DIYers if that is the only use they have for one.
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  #47  
Old 03-23-2019, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by oldskewel View Post
How do these state of the art testers handle intermittent problems? I'll guess they can't handle all of them. State of the art does not mean infallible. Never did, never will, regardless of how much the art advances.
You are correct they are not infallible.

What intermittent problems are you referencing?
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  #48  
Old 03-23-2019, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by bcredliner View Post
You are correct they are not infallible.

What intermittent problems are you referencing?
In general, many electrical problems are intermittent. And many times there is doubt about whether it is a true electrical problem vs. a weak/old/problematic battery problem. How many times on these (or any automotive) forums do you see an intermittent electrical problem (starter, alternator, literally anything else) that results in an unneeded battery replacement as the first step?

And I actually once had a tough intermittent battery problem on my old 911. Very simple electrical system on that car, and I would have about 1/10 failure to start, randomly. Hooking up jumper cables would make it start instantly (no need to charge). Battery, alternator, everything I could measure tested fine. Removed and cleaned all ground straps, etc. In the end it was basically process of elimination and I swapped in a new battery. It was not until about 6 months of no failures that I was sure I had fixed the problem.

So in that case, it was an intermittent internal battery problem. Due to its rare occurence, one would need to be lucky to ever detect it. But it was a real problem when it happened, as you can imagine.

That experience led me toward the setup where I try to have interchangeable batteries so at the first puzzling observation, I can just swap batteries and see what changes. My X5 can swap with my Cayenne, and my 3 Japanese cars can swap. The 911 is not directly interchangeable, but I could get it done if needed.
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  #49  
Old 03-24-2019, 01:22 AM
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Battery for E53 2005 4.4i

Code:
 Battery capacity test.
Battery Capacity Test: Perform a battery load test to see if service or replacement is necessary. First determine the load by retrieving the CCA from the battery case and reducing this number by half. The discharge rate is one half of the batteries cold cranking rating. Apply this load to the battery for 15 seconds. The battery's voltage must remain above 9.6 volts at 70° F.
This is the PRECISE test my dead battery PASSED. It was the entire point of me sharing my example with the world.

(Also it's not a capacity test it's only an estimate just like the CCA "test" done at 25C is just an estimate based on test curves and math).

Example: drive your car only highway for an hour or so, your DTE will be very optimistic compared to reality when you switch to all city driving. the DTE estimate isn't "wrong" it's just not clairvoyant.

My battery put out 500A for 15 to 30 seconds and held over 9.6v.

That same battery had previously not been able to start my car (200-220A) after 25 minutes of running an iPhone.

(Hence why I went to get a load test (and they also did the quick capacity test as described above)

So, I figured I must have left something on or FSU was killing my battery until a week or so later when after leaving my hazzards on for no more than 8 minutes, again I could not start my car and I needed to use my booster pack.

(This same battery never had a problem first start every time at zero F, even a couple starts in a row without running to charge).

I literally had a 700A strong but 0.2AH capacity battery.

I am FOR CERTAIN not the only person this has happened to and will not be the last, so: again just pointing out to people that may find themselves in the identical predicament, test don't guess, even if "they swear" the battery is good, it can be end of life failed even when it passes the tests.

I only wish I still had the battery so I could test it more throughly.

If I had similar symptoms in the future, I would go get a load test (and quick capacity test) and if the battery passed I personally would do a longer test of the actual capacity as the mfgr does eg pull 1/20 of the AH rating and see how long it takes to reach the mfg cut off voltage (probably 9.6 or 10v). It's a real world and simple thing anybody can do, they just need some device that pulls a few A and some time and a voltage measuring tool.

For those that have a tool like the 7002 that's awesome for them, doesn't help the other 99%
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  #50  
Old 03-24-2019, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewwynn View Post
Code:
 Battery capacity test.
Battery Capacity Test: Perform a battery load test to see if service or replacement is necessary. First determine the load by retrieving the CCA from the battery case and reducing this number by half. The discharge rate is one half of the batteries cold cranking rating. Apply this load to the battery for 15 seconds. The battery's voltage must remain above 9.6 volts at 70° F.
Residual battery voltage is not the test. It is the rate of discharge based on a particular amp draw over a particular amount of time. Small amount of amps over a longer time. Larger amount for shorter period of time.

This is the PRECISE test my dead battery PASSED. It was the entire point of me sharing my example with the world.

(Also it's not a capacity test it's only an estimate just like the CCA "test" done at 25C is just an estimate based on test curves and math).

Example: drive your car only highway for an hour or so, your DTE will be very optimistic compared to reality when you switch to all city driving. the DTE estimate isn't "wrong" it's just not clairvoyant. Distance to empty is not a valid example. DTE changes based on the current amount in the tank and the current consumption rate, it is always an estimate. The battery testing formula is not an estimate.

My battery put out 500A for 15 to 30 seconds and held over 9.6v.

That same battery had previously not been able to start my car (200-220A) after 25 minutes of running an iPhone.

(Hence why I went to get a load test (and they also did the quick capacity test as described above) Capacity test is another name for a load test. They are the same test. The common term is a load test.

So, I figured I must have left something on or FSU was killing my battery until a week or so later when after leaving my hazzards on for no more than 8 minutes, again I could not start my car and I needed to use my booster pack.

(This same battery never had a problem first start every time at zero F, even a couple starts in a row without running to charge).

I literally had a 700A strong but 0.2AH capacity battery.

I am FOR CERTAIN not the only person this has happened to and will not be the last, so: again just pointing out to people that may find themselves in the identical predicament, test don't guess, even if "they swear" the battery is good, it can be end of life failed even when it passes the tests. 1 in 5, 1 in 1000, 1- in a trillion. What is your guess for a perspective.

I only wish I still had the battery so I could test it more throughly.

If I had similar symptoms in the future, I would go get a load test (and quick capacity test) and if the battery passed I personally would do a longer test of the actual capacity as the mfgr does eg pull 1/20 of the

For those that have a tool like the 7002 that's awesome for them, doesn't help the other 99%
I just mentioned that is what I have not what is required. You can spend as little as $30 dollars on a load tester if that is all you want to do.

Why are you suggesting to go have a load test done if you already believe the industry standard for testing is inconclusive. Just do your test and if it tests good there is no reason to go to the store, if it tests bad still no reason to have the store test it and then have to try to explain to them why their test if flawed.

Your link took me to a site to buy a printer cartridge
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