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  #1  
Old 04-02-2019, 05:45 PM
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Headgasket replacement probably not ending well.

Finally got to attached the head and torque the bolts n my Timserted 3.0 block and got mostly through the first 90% and one of the serts gave way and actually came all the way out with the bolt. Holy crap.

I suspect I didnt get the sert seated all the way in but who knows. My first timesert job.

Should I put another sert in or give up and put a different block in or?

Or just release the brake and put it in neutral and see what happens?
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Old 04-02-2019, 06:30 PM
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Wow, sorry to hear that. I know when I put the timeserts in my M54 block last summer, that the Aluminum block sure felt pretty weak. Things drilled and tapped like butter, which was nice and easy, but a little concerning at the same time. Supposedly the same heat problems that cause head warping will reduce the strength of the block.

And I remember that torquing those head bolts was one of the more stressful parts of the job, just due to concern with something stripping out.

I believe the head bolts are M10-1.5, and the timesert inserts go into a M12-1.5 tapped hole you made. So when you say pulled out, does that mean that you're left with a rough 12 mm diameter hole in that one spot? So the timesert pulled straight up and out and brought the threads with it?

Which bolt hole was it? The middle cylinders tend to have the overheating and head warping problems, so that's where you're likely to have a weakened block and also likely to really need the head clamping force to prevent future problems.

So if you've got a bare 12 mm hole, first thing I'd do is look into options for a bigger insert to re-do just that one hole. I remember seeing (and I think I mentioned it in a thread on here, maybe one of yours) a pretty cool timesert alternative by some guy selling a $300 jig on eBay. He found some shortcomings with the timeserts and made his own bigger inserts, maybe M14 outer diameter, with a coarser pitch than the timeserts.

And at this point, since it's just for one bolt, I would even consider using a bigger head bolt in that spot. It would get a little tricky trying to figure out how to torque it. One of the alternatives to timeserts that I came across when figuring out what to do myself was people using M11 - 1.5 Mercedes head bolts, just making things a little bigger. Sounded sketch to me, so I did not do it, but if it's for a single hole, it may be worth a spin. Of course with a 12 mm hole in there, you'd be looking at a bigger bolt than M11. If you go this route, you'll probably need to drill a larger clearance hole in the head for the wider bolt to fit through.
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Old 04-02-2019, 06:57 PM
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Is the timsert captive under the head or fits through the bolt hole? If you didn't get to the second step of tightening you can remove the bolts and reuse if you have to take head off to fix the timsert.

It's the type of job meant for alumaloy but not sure if you can heat the head enough to melt into the hole.

I would look into those bigger inserts and see if you just needed to get the one farther in.

Setbacks are part and parcel of rebuilding cars take it on the chin and power through it'll be that much sweeter a victory when you win.
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Old 04-02-2019, 08:14 PM
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Thanks guys

I believe its number 5 on the torque sheets. Third from the front, on the intake side.

What happened is I torque all to 28ft lbs then switched to a breaker bar to do the 90degrees . Got to #5 and heard a pop and the bolt went slack in the hole. I tried to tightened it a bit more and it spun. Unscrewed the bolt and about 3/4 in of the timesert thread came out attached to the bolt. What I suspect happened is that the Sert didnt bottom all the way out. I used the $450 kit that had a guideline on the seating tool that I lined up as instructed. Several others went a bit past the guideline before bottoming out. I suspect I may not have gone barely not deep enough to bottom and lock into place.

Later I will insert my camera in the hole to see what is there but with the head off I reInserted an original bolt in the hole and it tightened ok (not to torque specs yet) so there apparently is still thread in the hole.

I have options, none perfect. Local Indy BMW shop said I should replace the block but then told me sound blocks are hard to find. Hes willing to rent his timesert kit to me but said I was probably wasting my time. Would hope I could put another sert in the hole and it would work but nut likely.

I am considering simply putting a helicoil or something else in the hole.

Of course a mysterious fire might be my best option.....
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Old 04-02-2019, 09:01 PM
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Oh, and suspect where I might have screwed up. I meant to put a light coating of oil on the bolts to take some of the friction but forgot to do so. The Elring bolts seemed to have a coating on them so may not have made a difference.
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Old 04-02-2019, 09:47 PM
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Headgasket replacement probably not ending well.

Can't lube head bolts it will throw off the torque numbers but I have a chart to compare.

M10 bolt is properly torqued to 37 ftlb dry, 28 lubricated. Since these are torque to yield I'm not sure any improvement to lubricate since the main force is linear not angular.

5600# force when torqued as above.

I wouldn't have a problem with using helicoil or other thread replacement. If there are some original threads left can you tap deeper and use a longer bolt?
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Old 04-02-2019, 10:05 PM
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I seem to remember some using double helicoils... but father time sucks and I could be mistaken too.
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Old 04-02-2019, 10:29 PM
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Thanks

I have threads that start about 1/2 inch below the timesert lip left by the countersink. There are threads that appear stout from there to the bottom but somewhere around 8-10 of the topmost threads are gone. Id be concerned that the threads below will hold. I did hand insert and slightly tighten one of the bolts after the head was removed it and the threads catch. Enough for 37 lbs? Not likely.

If I put a helicoil in on the upper 1/2 above the existing thread, any chance or do I need to EZ out the time sert and start over?
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Old 04-02-2019, 11:08 PM
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Search "bimmerforums E39 forum" for Mercedes M11 head bolts (without the need for Timesert).
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Old 04-02-2019, 11:17 PM
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80% of the strength of in the first 3 threads but when putting steel into aluminum that's the problem.


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