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  #41  
Old 11-23-2019, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wpoll View Post
Since it's best practice to always remove the B- cable at the battery first, there's no need need to remove the B+. Just remove the B- at the battery and place it where it cannot contact the B- terminal on the battery, or wrap it in a rag etc.
Removing the B- involves removing the spare and the air suspension though, correct?

I trust my friend to remove the B+ under the hood, if that's safe for an expert to do (he has worked on cars for more than 50 years!). I just wasn't sure if the alternator wiring bypassed it, until Andrew confirmed it doesn't bypass it below.
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  #42  
Old 11-23-2019, 03:54 PM
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Confusion abounds on the wiring of that B+ jump port in the engine bay - specifically whether it is the end of the line vs. a stop on the path from the battery to the engine bay. Even BMW-supplied wiring diagrams may not be right on this.

It seems to vary between 3.0 gas vs. diesel and 4.4+. From memory (consider it a guess), it is the end of the line for 3.0d and 4.4+ (all with water cooled alternators) and in-line for the 3.0i (with air cooled alternators). Search this forum for more info if you want, or just tell your friend to measure voltage after disconnecting it to be sure it's not live.

I have a 3.0i so my engine bay jump port is in-line, and disconnecting it there would isolate the engine. But I have a quick release installed on the battery's negative post, and with no air suspension or anything back there, I can loosen it without removing the spare tire. Took me a little effort to put that in there when I first got the car, but it's convenient and I think safer in that I'm not tempted to take short cuts when I know I really should disconnect the battery but might take a chance due to the hassle.
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  #43  
Old 11-24-2019, 04:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haigha View Post
Removing the B- involves removing the spare and the air suspension though, correct? ...
I can remove the B- terminal from the battery by simply lifting out the spare - this give me enough room access to get a 10mm ring spanner onto the B- terminal. Take about 3 minutes....
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  #44  
Old 11-24-2019, 01:41 PM
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Thanks for the information, guys. I'll let you know how the procedure goes
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  #45  
Old 12-05-2019, 07:43 AM
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The first attempt resulted in making the problem worse

After replacing the voltage regulator, which took an afternoon, now when I start the engine the alternator doesn't appear to be working at all. The three times I started it, the battery light came on after scrolling to Test 8 on the dash, not even selecting it. The battery light hadn't come on before, just the other warning lights (4x4, DSC, TPFS). When I selected Test 9, voltage was around 11.2.

Questions on two things that could have gone wrong with the procedure:

1. The VR has a push down mechanism to release the brushes, after mounting it. I definitely heard a loud click after pushing it down. Is it possible to hear the click and not have pushed it down far enough to release them?

2. The B+ connector on the alternator was a pain to get off. We broke the retaining clip and couldn't find it. Is it just a plastic piece or does it have metal in it? I couldn’t find a replacement on RealOEM. We used silicone sealant to waterproof that side of the connector. It's also possible that since there was no clip, it came off as we struggled to get the alterator remounted.

Notes:

We replaced the belt even though the original had no visible wear.

I took a picture of the label on the alternator. It's still not clear to me which is the correct replacement part. The eBay listing I pointed to earlier says that TG17C027, as on my label, is the post 12/03 alternator. It also lists 2542918 (without the A at the end that's on my label). As stated earlier, I have a 10/03 build, original owner.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-ALTERNA...P/290786378197

We cleaned the slip rings. Both had a little bit of fouling. Still plently of copper.
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  #46  
Old 12-05-2019, 01:13 PM
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Trans Prog Failsafe when cool outside. Battery? VR? Alternator?

Before putting an alternator back in always test at an auto parts store for free. New doesn't mean functional. You can. Test for continuity on the field winding through the slip rings but the car needs to send an initial spike of voltage to the field winding to jump start the alternator.

I'm about to refurbish wires Valeo alternator and will take to get it tested before I reinstall. I'm not replacing the VR as I'm pretty confident it's just worn bushes and slip rings having done the same process on my car about 15,000 miles sooner than wife's.
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Last edited by andrewwynn; 12-05-2019 at 01:42 PM.
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  #47  
Old 12-05-2019, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haigha View Post
The first attempt resulted in making the problem worse

After replacing the voltage regulator, which took an afternoon, now when I start the engine the alternator doesn't appear to be working at all. The three times I started it, the battery light came on after scrolling to Test 8 on the dash, not even selecting it. The battery light hadn't come on before, just the other warning lights (4x4, DSC, TPFS). When I selected Test 9, voltage was around 11.2.

Questions on two things that could have gone wrong with the procedure:

1. The VR has a push down mechanism to release the brushes, after mounting it. I definitely heard a loud click after pushing it down. Is it possible to hear the click and not have pushed it down far enough to release them?

2. The B+ connector on the alternator was a pain to get off. We broke the retaining clip and couldn't find it. Is it just a plastic piece or does it have metal in it? I couldn’t find a replacement on RealOEM. We used silicone sealant to waterproof that side of the connector. It's also possible that since there was no clip, it came off as we struggled to get the alterator remounted.

Notes:

We replaced the belt even though the original had no visible wear.

I took a picture of the label on the alternator. It's still not clear to me which is the correct replacement part. The eBay listing I pointed to earlier says that TG17C027, as on my label, is the post 12/03 alternator. It also lists 2542918 (without the A at the end that's on my label). As stated earlier, I have a 10/03 build, original owner.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-ALTERNA...P/290786378197

We cleaned the slip rings. Both had a little bit of fouling. Still plently of copper.
Some simple questions first:
Now that you see the label on your alternator, how well does it match with what realoem tells you? Mainly for curiosity. I found mine to be different.

A little confused by your reporting on the charging light (that looks like a battery) coming on. When you put the key in and turn it to on, with the engine stopped, that red light should be on. Is it?

When you start the engine and it runs and the alternator is generating sufficient voltage, that light goes out. In the olden days, that was a simple light bulb and a wire in a very simple circuit, so the light would go out when the voltage output at the alternator matched the voltage at the battery. In modern cars, the ECU is generally involved (in everything), taking full control and adding a bunch of other things to go wrong. I'm not sure which type your car has.

Clarification on your report would help.

A failed VR (not just brushes failed, but a circuit failure) can cause that charging light to not come on when the key is in and the engine is stopped.

Regarding the VR brush release mechanism clicking into place, I'd say that is a likely concern. I forget how the one on my X5 120A Valeo works - can you slide the whole shield thing up and off and then slide it back on?

On my 120A Valeo, that nut on the B+ terminal on the alternator is a plastic cover over a steel nut. 17 mm hex head, M8-1.25 threads. 13 Nm torque spec. So it's not just a cover. It's steel, needs to be tightly clamped to the stud, and the plastic cover is for insulation, since that is live voltage there.

First thing I'd do at this point is to get a M8-1.25 threaded steel nut and torque it on there. Some tape or something would be good to cover it as a temporary insulator.

If that does not do it, I'd take the alternator out again and try to inspect the clicking into place thing. I don't know how you could electrically test for a problem with that, so it's a mechanical / visual inspection. If that looks good, you can take it off and put it back on again - a little trickier than how you do it with a new one, but possible. Then there's always the parts store free bench testing.
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  #48  
Old 12-05-2019, 01:59 PM
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When I refurbished my alternator, I never torqued the plastic insulated nut. The nut fell off and have me very similar errors as the VR not working.

So +1 on check the nut on the alternator and the B+ terminal.
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  #49  
Old 12-05-2019, 03:10 PM
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Thanks for the recommendations.

The B+ terminal is a plug with a retaining clip. I included a picture below from one of the YouTube videos. I took the bottom protective plastic front plate off just now and found the broken part of the clip. It is plastic. The negative cable is held on by a 13mm nut. My friend torqued it down by feel.


Now that you see the label on your alternator, how well does it match with what realoem tells you?


All RealOEM has is the BMW part 12317540992 (supersedes
12317525440 (09/01/2003 — 08/09/2004)).

https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/par...&q=12317540992

Neither part corresponds to anything on the alternator label. There wasn't any other label that I saw. I've asked the eBay seller about the compatibility and sent them a copy of the label. I'll update if I hear back from them.

A little confused by your reporting on the charging light (that looks like a battery) coming on. When you put the key in and turn it to on, with the engine stopped, that red light should be on. Is it?


I never noticed that red battery light coming on. Maybe it only comes on when it detects the alternator isn't working on the N62? It only came on the three times I started going through the tests and hit #8, on the way to #9. It has never been on, that I recall, in the pre-VR swap part of this saga. I'll test whether it comes on with the engine off when I get it off the jack stands.


Regarding the VR brush release mechanism clicking into place, I'd say that is a likely concern. I forget how the one on my X5 120A Valeo works - can you slide the whole shield thing up and off and then slide it back on?


It's a push down mechanism, but there's a cover over the VR (with the label in the picture in my previous post. I don't think I can remove the cover without taking out the alternator. With the undercarriage plastic shield off, I can see the alternator cover from the bottom but it's not going to be possible to remove the screws of the cover, from what I can tell. I can see the negative cable attached, but not the B+ connector.

I left the Battery Tender Jr trickle charger on overnight and it wasn't green when I checked it 14 hours later. It was 13 V measured at the B+ terminal at the firewall, so it appears to have charged somewhat.

I learned several valuable lessons and now the one about taking the alternator to be tested
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Last edited by haigha; 12-05-2019 at 06:06 PM. Reason: clarity
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  #50  
Old 12-05-2019, 03:42 PM
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Update to my responses below:

I just started the engine again and let it warm up.

I guess I don't pay attention because in the second position, which I rarely pause on, the battery light is on (as well as many others). I think because the alternator was kicking in immediately after cranking, I didn't notice.

The connection between the test #8 and the light coming on seems to have been a coincidence (3 times in a row). This time I started without going into the test menu and the light came on after about 10 seconds and remained on solidly. Voltage bounced around from 11.5 to 11.8.

I also did a scan with my Foxwell and got the following fault codes:

28D7
Not present
DME: Communication with Alternator


27DA
Present
DME: Alternator fault


The eBay seller confirmed that this is the correct alternator based on the photo of the label I sent (and included below):

ebay.com/itm/290786378197


EDIT: I was also able to spot the B+ connector on the alternator from above. I used the end of a wooden yardstick to try to press it down further. It seemed to be on solidly already, I didn't feel any movement in it.

Last edited by haigha; 12-05-2019 at 05:16 PM. Reason: scanned with Foxwell, not "DME"
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