Yet Another 3.0 Head Gasket Thread

[Effduration]

Originally Posted by Russianblue

@effduration

so...about how long does it take to TimeSert 14 holes? depending on if the head is damaged, and the time commitment extends, i wouldn't be against doing all 14. The additional monetary cost is negligible.

it takes me about 15 mins per hole with kit 1090..

You have to unbolt, center, and re-bolt the jig for each hole.
When I drill and tap, I pull the drill bit and tap out 3x per hole to clear alum chips as I go - if you don't you will damage bit and tap and not have a good hole, because chips have no where to go.

I use wd40 as my cutting fluid every hole or so.

I have compressed air and shop vac handy for chip removal.

You will need a 1/2 inch chuck drill to do this. The standard 3/8 chuck drill won't work. You will also need to rent a right angle 1/2 inch chuck drill from home depot or lowes for 4 hours to do 2-3 holes near the rear that you can't access with a regular drill.

you get the picture.

But man it IS satisfying when that engine starts up, runs, and doesn't consume oil or coolant after you have done a head gasket.

[Russianblue]

I actually didn't test compression. the shop told me it was fine though. car was actually running just fine before i took it apart. i've already got the coolant lines on my shopping list along with several other things. good call.

did you mean to include a link?

[oldskewel]

Originally Posted by Russianblue

this is the crux of it. the BENZ bolts would seem to take a lot less time to implement. I do have a bit of time pressure here unfortunately. but not a TON.

i'm not finding much detail on the Mercedes solution though. among other things... which bolts to use and obviously a verified TTY method. i mean, if you are stretching those bolts to spec, it's going to take a good bit more torque than the stock setup. now you've got two bolts clamping harder than the others. i was originally thinking just use the MB bolts in the repair holes but that might be a bad idea. would probably need to do all of them. so the TTY issue might be a deal breaker in that it takes as much time as timeserting 3 or 4.

so...i suppose the next step is to torque those head bolts again tonight. 40NM + eyeball 90 + eyeball 90. I know i am missing a washer btw...good catch. it disappeared somewhere under the car. I'll find it.

after that, lift the head off and check block and head for warpage. i think this budget is only gonna work out if my existing head is repairable and i can get it skimmed and tested for $200-$300, which i THINK i can. i know i can prob find a junker head for cheap and put all my parts on it but i've rebuilt a 12 valve M20 head before and that's no fun at all.

btw oldskewel, i tried to PM you yesterday to ask you some questions about your experience (namely, re-timing the cams/vanos) but your mailbox is apparently full! i'd love to hit you up with some questions.

Regardless of the repair method you choose, I'd do the same thing to all 14 holes, keeping things symmetric. That will also make it less critical regarding how you torque them.

Somewhere on this forum, I think there was a little discussion about what the resulting torque (e.g., 60 Nm as a guess) on the stock bolts following the TTA sequence (40 Nm + 90* + 90*) would be. If you know that number, and the bolts have been TTY'ed (that strain hardens them), you should be able to then reinstall them to the same torque, in theory.

Considering the M11 bolts, if trying to replicate the stock setup, I'd aim for the same final torque - i.e., the 60 Nm number, as that should give the same clamping force. Any yield will be different, and maybe they won't even yield at all due to the extra diameter. The thread pitch (1.5 mm) is the same for the stock M10 or the replacement M11, so the relationship between final torque and final axial tensile force on the bolt (= clamping force) will be close to the same.

The M11 vs. M10 means each bolt will then be a 20% stiffer (121/100 approx area ratio) clamping spring, so the desired compliance in the design will not be there - one reason to use TTY is that the strain hardening means you can get the same strength from a thinner bolt, and the thinner bolt means (easier to fit, but also ...) it is more compliant, which is needed to keep even clamping pressure as the engine fires and thermally expands.

The fact that so little (only that one thread) of block threads came out, you're in much better shape than most for trying the M11 solution. For threads that pull out full segments of block material, the hole is already at least 10mm wide, leaving not much room at all in those areas for an M11 thread to grab into.

I would not underestimate the time required for TimeSert. And it is not a slam dunk. @ahlem reported problems doing it the first time and came in and re-did things with the BigSert alternative, I think. No doubt that @Effduration can do it as he says, but that's specific skills and experience vs. someone doing it the first time.

Slight difference in your plans vs. what I did - I took the option to remove the exhaust manifolds with the head in place. Then my kids helped me lift the head off. No Hazard Fraught engine thing for me when you've got helpers.

I did get an email notification about your message bounce, so I cleared a few messages. Feel free to try again. Sorry about that.

[Russianblue]

to be perfectly honest...this looks like pure misery (timesert process)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpHDBW74kIo

i could handle 2-3 of these per evening after work. i'm gonna have to get my arms around the idea.

[Effduration]

Originally Posted by Russianblue

to be perfectly honest...this looks like pure misery (timesert process)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpHDBW74kIo

i could handle 2-3 of these per evening after work. i'm gonna have to get my arms around the idea.

Yeah he took his time. Which is the right way to do it. The first few are slow, but it gets better as you get used to it. I like how he occasionally pulled the drill bit and tap to clean out chips.

I would get a medium to large tap handle (t-handle) or use a ratchet not an open end wrench like he did during the tapping process.

I would clean the entire block surface (not final clean, just remove gasket material) and tape the whole block surface with clear packing tape. That way you can see what you're doing better.

OP, I am not sure what you are doing with the engine bar you bought. It won't help you much lifting the head with the exhaust manifold. You could remove the manifold and lift the head by hand, but that's a big hassle -removing the exhaust manifold. Lifting the head and manifold together with an engine hoist is the best way. But you could also remove the hood (easy) and rig up a come-along or similar to lift the head and manifold straight up.

[Russianblue]

Originally Posted by Effduration

OP, I am not sure what you are doing with the engine bar you bought. It won't help you much lifting the head with the exhaust manifold. You could remove the manifold and lift the head by hand, but that's a big hassle -removing the exhaust manifold. Lifting the head and manifold together with an engine hoist is the best way. But you could also remove the hood (easy) and rig up a come-along or similar to lift the head and manifold straight up.

While this is a little hairy, this is how I'd planned on doing it.

https://youtu.be/BGv_emMJ2cw?t=687

If this isn't gonna work, I will have to revisit this entire effort. I suppose i could go buy an engine hoist.

[Effduration]

Yeah I really like 50’s kid videos but that one was a real cluster$&%!!

Very little lift from the bar and no control getting it out of the engine bay..
I suggest you beg, borrow, or rent an engine hoist..I am willing to wager somebody near you has one..

[Oldmactech]

Be very diligent installing time serts. One of mine failed on re-install (probably something I overlooked) but replaced with a helicoil so I’m 12k miles in with no problems.

Exhaust manifolds are a pain in the ass.

Redoing the timing is a little confusing and I almost learned the hard way that you need to rotate the crank when you think you are done before startup or you’ll run a piston into a valve…..almost.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Effduration]

Originally Posted by Oldmactech

Be very diligent installing time serts. One of mine failed on re-install (probably something I overlooked) but replaced with a helicoil so I’m 12k miles in with no problems.

Exhaust manifolds are a pain in the ass.

Redoing the timing is a little confusing and I almost learned the hard way that you need to rotate the crank when you think you are done before startup or you’ll run a piston into a valve…..almost.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Good advice...an M10x1.5 24.5mm "Big-sert" will also work to fix a failed time-sert installation in an engine block

[Russianblue]

i just finished all the timeserts this weekend.

tellin' ya right now if any one of those timeserts fails....

hello make a wish foundation, we are donating a nice X5!