Yet Another 3.0 Head Gasket Thread

[ahlem]

The stuff the race engine guy uses is different than the Stop Leak snake oil option.
It was actually addressed in a technical service bulletin for one of the major auto makers, I think it might have been Ford but I don't remember for certain. Maybe someone else might know or I can ask next time I'm in there.

[ahlem]

Did you get the cam trays and caps at the same time as the cams?
I bought a set at our local LKQ and on the forums etc. it's mentioned they are a matched set made from bearing material. I suppose you could mike everything and determine if it's within spec if you mix and match.

[oldskewel]

Originally Posted by Russianblue

Correct. It's got to be one of those things. Unfortunately, those are all deal breakers save the head bolt torquing which is PRETTY much a deal breaker. i do have a spare set of head bolts but i have used 98% of my allotted time for this project.

is it possible there is on obstruction in the system somewhere? Namely, the expansion tank? could that cause these symptoms?

I'm usually the last guy to say something is not possible, but ... a simple blockage would not cause the suction without other things happening.

The air from the expansion tank air gap must be escaping while the engine is running. So if not from an expansion tank cap overflow, or an external leak, it must be an internal engine leak, which fits your other symptoms. But as I said in the earlier post an external leak that you can't see right now could be it.

I read your earlier posts about the destroyed water pump. So if there is a blockage or continued pump failure (but no other problems) that causes overheating, that would lead to a rise in temperature, which would also raise the coolant pressure. When that reached 2 bar (about 30 psi), the expansion tank cap would vent the excess pressure, letting liquid coolant, water vapor, and AIR out of the cap. Then the loss of air would lead to the suction thing when it cools down. Since you do not see the cap venting, it is very unlikely or impossible that a cooling system blockage is causing the suction.

BTW, I was way over 300% on allotted time when I finished mine.

[oldskewel]

Originally Posted by ahlem

The stuff the race engine guy uses is different than the Stop Leak snake oil option.
It was actually addressed in a technical service bulletin for one of the major auto makers, I think it might have been Ford but I don't remember for certain. Maybe someone else might know or I can ask next time I'm in there.

I don't think that would help @RussianBlue's situation, but here's something that might be what your friend is talking about:

Subaru had some problems with their 4 cylinder boxer engine head gaskets. My parents had one of them, so I helped them out and learned about this.

Subaru did a recall that extended the warranty on them and also prescribed a "coolant conditioner" as they called it. It was a little ~4 oz blue bottle, I think, got from the Subaru dealer, and I think it was simply re-branded Bars Leaks or something like that.

It is made from *ginger root* which has the magical property that it will not swell when wet (which might clog things internally), but will swell when it is wet and then is exposed to air (or I'll guess actually just that it is not wet any more). So it is supposed to plug holes that are actually leaking, but not holes that are wet on both side.

[Russianblue]

So here is an update. Yesterday morning I did a full, proper bleed of the cooling system, until the little pee stream was solid. I THOUGHT I had done that the night I cranked it for the first time. Maybe it wasn't fully done.

I also swapped the expansion tank cap from my other car.

In any case, I drove it yesterday in blazing 93 degree weather with stop and go city traffic watching the digital temp gauge.

Not sure which one of these was responsible (if either) but there was no hose suckage, and this morning, the coolant level stick popped right up.

Mind you, I am still getting a Low Coolant warning.

One thing I might note is that this radiator (which was replaced within the past 24 months) as well as the Expansion tank (replaced in January) drains quite slowly compared to earlier drainings with this car and my other Xer. it also FILLS slowly. you really can't pour a lot in at one time and the stick just CREEPS down. the coolant level sensor was also replaced fairly recently. That's what kinda had me thinking maybe there is a blockage somewhere.

also of note, to effduration's point about coolant being burned out of the exhaust post overheating....the steam seems to have subsided greatly from the tailpipe.

so the problems to sort:

1. is the engine eating coolant internally
2. verify oil leak location and see if it can be remedied - to inspect will require (drum roll) draining the coolant and removing the tstat so I can see.
3. massive screeching noise from accessory belts - I was working on this this morning and can NOT get my serp belt back on. I am going to make a separate post about this. I am absolutely dumbfounded.
4. Service Engine Soon light - cleared about 20 codes yesterday and realized my vanos wasn't plugged in...which is why the engine felt very weak while driving at times.
5. fill with proper 5w40 to see if it will quiet some of the engine clattering noises (of which there seem to be many clicks and clatters and squeaks)

[oldskewel]

That's all great to hear.

The coolant was the biggest concern, so if there is an explanation for that, the others may be solvable one at a time. The serious under-filling could cause the suction due to a big hot air pocket that was in there when you put the cap on (the air needed to be hot). When that air cooled, it would shrink - not as dramatic suction as condensing water vapor (where the volume basically goes to zero), but could produce what you saw.

On the belt -
are you 100% sure it is routed properly?

Fan pulley nuts (the 4 small ones) on tight?

You previously mentioned the Power Steering - when I did mine, the PS system stayed closed the whole time, and it and the AC were basically untouched while I worked around them. But I did not do anything special to protect them. Hosed everything down, etc. If you did not open any hoses, I doubt you could have caused a problem.

I did have a couple of minor belt squeaks after my HG work - partially fixed by a new drive belt tensioner and then fully fixed when I put on a special belt designed to handle slight problem situations. I guess when you touch enough old stuff, it's not unexpected to throw a couple of things off.

[Russianblue]

Originally Posted by oldskewel

I put on a special belt designed to handle slight problem situations.

Spanx for cars. lol!

So it's possible I now have the serp belt and coolant situation sorted. The big one is the oil leak.

I have a theory here.

here are some pics of the leak location.
the "good" thing is that this is looking like a timing cover leak.

the "better" thing is that it is POSSSSIBLE that I may have actually NOT INSTALLED the long E8 torx bolts on the front corners of the cylinder head. don't ask me why i think that. just...thinking back....i don't have leftover bolts but i remember putting two in a bag with the tensioner and i seriously don't remember seeing those other two again. but my memory is terrible nowadays anyway so i have to go check regardless.

if i did install all four, it is possible that i torqued them incorrectly. i think i remember torquing them to 5 or 6 ft lbs. can't remember where i got that. one of the youtube guides maybe. apparently the torque numbers for these bolts is a tad elusive. anybody have the correct torque? 10 NM ?

if it is a torque issue, i would certainly think a few more inch-pounds applied DIRECLTY on that location (which i know is under-torqued) might pull up that section of the timing cover just a few thousandths. maybe that would help with the seal.

the location of this leak coincides with the top center of the timing cover housing.

[andrewwynn]

Get in there with inspection camera and you will find it it’s hard to find a UV dye. not as low as the chain
tensioner?

[Russianblue]

another straight up embarrassment to our kind.

I found the two bolts I ostracized.

nutshell: the reason the timing cover is leaking is (I purport) bc I did not install two of the head bolts.

got that? extra screws from a big job. you've all done it! but not with the friggin cyl head!

I opened the valve cover and plain as day...missing the front corner bolts that go under the vanos unit, one of which is DIRECTLY above the spot that's leaking.

so I GET to remove the vanos again. I LOVE the oil spill that goes along with that. I just am not a big fans of messy fluids.

anyway, I am still searching for the official torque values but can't seem to find them.

does 10NM sound reasonable? that's pretty standard for M6.

[andrewwynn]

You mean chain guide cover bolt not head bolt.

10 N·m normal for m6 into aluminum. I'm sure that was close to what I've used for all the bolts holding the chain covers on the m62tu. I would maybe err on the side of caution and use 9.

Also did you use permatex in any corner and the gap under the valve cover? (If like the m62 the VC bridges over the head into the guide covers. Prob any ohv engine does this)