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  #12691  
Old 09-14-2020, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewwynn View Post
With absolutely no doubt!

For the exact same reason they work on packed snow. The sipes that grip on ice get through the oily surface that large tread blocks of summer tires float right on top of.

Summer tires are terrifying to me in Chicago. The roads are covered in oily film all the time.

If I had to estimate I have at least twice the traction. I right now have 3-season tires on wife's car I'll do some g-force and distance braking tests to explain better what I'm talking about but basically it's nearly impossible for me to get abs to kick on in my car on dry pavement but with wife's car just a good job on the pedal will do it.

In tire tests, typically the winter tire has significantly less grip in hot, dry conditions than either summer or all-season tires. I have never been to Chicago, but I generally don't expect that it's that much different from other places.



For reference, on the entire spectrum of tires, the stickiest racing slick won't have twice the traction of the crappiest chinese all-season. I don't disagree with your statement, but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you've probably have had an experience with a bad summer tire -- something chinese, something not made for performance (they certainly exist) or something worn out or abused. Some very good winter tires might be better in hot/dry conditions than some very bad, perhaps worn out or aged summer tires, but generally you will be hard pressed to find any situation where this would be true.



Again, I don't disagree that your tires provide decent grip, but I would be exceptionally surprised to see them out-pace a good summer tire in warm, dry conditions. Read through this article if you haven't seen it before. The snow tire takes significantly longer to stop and has lower lateral grip than either the summer or the all-season tire. (And the summer tire in this test was not even really a performance tire, either, just a family car tire with a summer compound.)



https://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/...vs-summer.html



(Source: mechanical engineer who studied vehicle dynamics in Formula SAE in engineering school)
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  #12692  
Old 09-14-2020, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Bdc101 View Post
What max performance summer tire do you run on your X? I don't know of any that make them in the 17" sizes.

I'm running Michelin Pilot Sport 4S on my 4.8is (20 inch) and my wife's e70 (19 inch) we're running Bridgestone Dueler H/P Sport. Continental Extremecontact Sport is what I run on my e38 (18 inch). Only reason I mention the Conti is they make an equivalent 20 inch for my 4.8, and I do like the way they handle on my e38, but wanted to try the Michelins.



I'm not sure what 17 inch tire ratio they would offer though.
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  #12693  
Old 09-14-2020, 02:57 PM
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Man, you must have a yearly tire budget larger than some small african nations!
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  #12694  
Old 09-14-2020, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Bdc101 View Post
Man, you must have a yearly tire budget larger than some small african nations!

It is fun to have these different vehicle choices to drive... until it comes time to pay the piper. Then it does sting a bit. But what I have to tell myself is that having winter/summer tire combos allows me to get 8 years out of 2 sets of tires. Or thereabouts.
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  #12695  
Old 09-14-2020, 03:42 PM
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Yep, same here. Unfortunately I've found that sometimes I don't keep vehicles for that long, so I don't always get to take advantage of it. It's funny how life seems to change and make your vehicle needs very different sometimes. That may just be my stage in life though. Currently, I live so close to work that we only drive about 10k miles per year between both our cars, including summer road trips -- so that makes tires last very very long.



Both of my current vehicles (my X and a 2015 Mazda 6) I have gone with 17" winter tire wheels for cost savings. The Mazda came with 19s which look great, but frankly the 17" wheels are so much more comfortable, and surprisingly they are so much lighter that you can feel a difference in acceleration too.
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  #12696  
Old 09-14-2020, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Bdc101 View Post
...the 17" wheels are so much more comfortable, and surprisingly they are so much lighter that you can feel a difference in acceleration too. AND CHEAPER

FTFY
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  #12697  
Old 09-15-2020, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Bdc101 View Post
In tire tests, typically the winter tire has significantly less grip in hot, dry conditions than either summer or all-season tires. I have never been to Chicago, but I generally don't expect that it's that much different from other places.



For reference, on the entire spectrum of tires, the stickiest racing slick won't have twice the traction of the crappiest chinese all-season. I don't disagree with your statement, but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you've probably have had an experience with a bad summer tire -- something chinese, something not made for performance (they certainly exist) or something worn out or abused. Some very good winter tires might be better in hot/dry conditions than some very bad, perhaps worn out or aged summer tires, but generally you will be hard pressed to find any situation where this would be true.



Again, I don't disagree that your tires provide decent grip, but I would be exceptionally surprised to see them out-pace a good summer tire in warm, dry conditions. Read through this article if you haven't seen it before. The snow tire takes significantly longer to stop and has lower lateral grip than either the summer or the all-season tire. (And the summer tire in this test was not even really a performance tire, either, just a family car tire with a summer compound.)



https://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/...vs-summer.html



(Source: mechanical engineer who studied vehicle dynamics in Formula SAE in engineering school)

You missed the critical point that makes my argument;

I'm pointing out, that in a worst case summer scenario, ALL summer tires absolutely suck.

I could literally tow any similar weight car with all four wheels locked across an oily wet pavement.

Nobody does this test, but I have experienced it first hand with very high performance summer tires.

The very thing that makes summer tires excel is their pitfall: surface area!

When I say double the traction I am being literal, I may be off by a factor of two and it's only 50% better but I'll take it.

I am saying that where fantastic summer tires might achieve 0.25g braking on oily wet pavement I'll be able to achieve 0.5g. I'm not kidding and I have done some testing on slush where I was able to achieve 50% of dry road g force with my 235s.

Just comparing the 235s vs the 255s, same tires, my x with the 235s could drag the other across most winter surfaces. I'm saying the same can be said for summer tires and worst case summer roads; an urban road like downtown Chicago when it first rains after a 3 week spell of no rain makes the roads literally more slippery than snow.

This is one of the conditions where I will literally have twice the traction of a summer tire. The large contact patch of a summer tire just petro planes over the surface where my "studless" tires works their way through to asphalt.

The other condition where they excel is wet leaves which also are slippery as snot. (40-50,000 miles on a motorcycle you learn exactly what is slippery or not and just how slippery) I would rather ride a mc over snow than wet leaves.

"The testing" I've seen has never included either of these hazards and I'm well aware that a 1 season tire will beat my 3.9 season tire at least 40 or 50 days a year. My entire point is that when the shit gets dicey in real world drivng, I have far more control because my tires will grip better than 95% of the tires on the road in the conditions where it matters.

I just stumbled into it by accident. The auction where I bought my car got in a bit of a bidding war that consumed the entire budget so I was stuck with winter tires that it came with, I'd have never done on purpose.

However, I noticed pretty quickly that my car amazingly out performed my wife's nearly identical X5 in every way.

For a long time I thought it was because I had sport suspension, but when I got a new set of tires, I put my old ones with about 1/3 tread left on wife's car and it instantly had similar performance to mine!

Where I first noticed the difference was wet leaves; where I had to be cautious with the Z28 around corners I found that I could go quite a bit faster than the Z with the X if there were spotty areas of wet leaves. I could just ignore and drive normally (means no brake left turns at city speeds) with the X,. And that behavior would put me in the ditch if I tried that in the Z.

I know how hard I can brake with my tires and I can't brake anywhere nearly as hard with 3-season tires if there is even a hint of oil on the road. I'm aware of are least three times I've been able to stop in an emergency that would have resulted in a collision had the only difference been 3-season tires vs winter tires. This is my public service announcement; if you are more safety for you and family than absolutely maximum performance on clean dry hot pavement, than look into the unadvertised safety factor of year 'round winter tire use.

I understand that lots of people don't drive in urban areas, don't drive where the weather can literally swing 90 in 24 hours, and these concepts don't apply.

If you drive where there is a lot of traffic, where it doesn't rain every day to clear the oil, winter tires will give you more grip than 3-season tires at least 300 of the 365 days of the year.

When I drove a friend's X5 that had relatively new duelers on it, I was shocked that I couldn't go 45-50 up an on ramp without drifting. I could have easily gone 5-7 mph faster with my X.

When I had my Z, it came with eagle GS-C: asymmetrical and unidirectional. On clean dry pavement the grip was absolutely insane! The way I take left corners in the city (off throttle to the apex, no brakes), I could do the same with right turns in the Z, in fact on 4-lane roads I didn't have to drop the throttle: 35 mph right turn only required a sharp 90 turn of the steering wheel no other input necessary. (well maybe a quick jab of the left elbow and knee to stay somewhere close to the center of the seat). So; yes I'm quite aware of good summer tires, also aware of their limitations; about 8 wet leaves and that right turn described above would end up in at least a 180 spin.

Wife's car has summer tires on it, as soon as I get a chance I'll figure out a way to do some g-force testing to demonstrate with some objective values to back up what I'm saying. (will have to be soon before I put Winters back on).
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  #12698  
Old 09-15-2020, 08:57 AM
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andrewwynn, I don't have the experience with oil on the road, but a few decades ago when I couldn't afford another set of tires I was forced to drive my winter tires through the summer. I know exactly what you're talking about with the increased grip but I seem to recall the wear rate on my Hakkas was concerning enough that I only got 2 years out of them IIRC. That was on my 86 Volvo wagon. Not even a beast like the X5. BUT I was commuting 2 hours each day.
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  #12699  
Old 09-15-2020, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by absolutezero273c View Post
andrewwynn, I don't have the experience with oil on the road, but a few decades ago when I couldn't afford another set of tires I was forced to drive my winter tires through the summer. I know exactly what you're talking about with the increased grip but I seem to recall the wear rate on my Hakkas was concerning enough that I only got 2 years out of them IIRC. That was on my 86 Volvo wagon. Not even a beast like the X5. BUT I was commuting 2 hours each day.


You have to balance as with anything. I drove about 8000-9000 miles a year and can get about 3 winter out of a set of tires If I time It right. It's a little more expensive (faster wear) but not much. The up front cost of duplicate set of rims and two sets of tires not to mention storing the opposite season. Easier to run one set of tires, replace the couple that wear out and extend the run. (fronts get worn out faster how I drive so I will usually find a half worn pair on eBay after about two years to put on the front to get a full 3-4 years. Yeah cheating a little but $220 for a pair of used $270 tires and be able to to run the backs down to nubs. (with any luck getting through winter with 5-6 32nd left and run out the rest of the tread though the year. New tires in fall is my preference
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  #12700  
Old 09-16-2020, 03:05 PM
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Replaced the rigged coolant overflow hose with a new hose and replaced the power steering filter/reservoir with a new one. Found out years ago that these reservoirs also acted as a filter with a fine mesh screen inside. Good to replace at 150k!
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