Transmission Flush - Do or DON'T??

[mejim707]

I'm the second owner of the X5. It's a 2008 with 252k on the clock. I'm chasing down a shudder issue I'm experiencing only after the car is warmed up after bout 20 minutes of driving and typically only manifests itself in stop and go traffic. Primarily the issue is when the car shifts from 1 to 2 this is followed by a shudder / loss of power. If I press the gas more the transmission kicks down and it accelerated without issue. Also, I can't typically eliminate the issue by switching the car into sport mode.

The transmission fluid has never been changed because I was told not to at around 125k by local shops and the dealer. They said flat out don't do it because the friction material would be lost and the transmission will slip. So, I didn't.

It's been great until recently where this shudder is becoming annoying. It's not horrible, but I would like it gone.

Now this could be fuel system, coils, spark plugs, vanos, injectors or valvetronic motor, eccentric shaft sensor, or torque converter or transmission related.

I've already ruled out vanos, check valves, spark plugs and coils. I've tested end stops on the valvetronic motor and it seems to be working. I'll be testing the injectors and fuel pump today.

My next course of action is as follows.
1. Replace the valvetronic motor because it could be failing as it heats up and degrades in performance. Others have seen this and it's very difficult to diagnose but it results in the same issue as I'm having.
2. Add Lubegard Instant Shudder Fixx to the transmission.
3. Drain and change the transmission fluid and filter and while in there inspect the seals and other parts replacing if needed.
4. Do everything in step 3 but also add Lubegard Instant Shudder Fixx.

Does anyone have any experience with this and could offer some insight / advice?

Thanks in advance!

[crystalworks]

You looked at transfer case actuator?

If the problem does indeed turn out to be trans related. At your mileage, servicing it could be the nail in the coffin. I wouldn't use a machine to flush if you were going to go forward.

Does that 3.0si use a ZF 6HP?

[mejim707]

Originally Posted by crystalworks

You looked at transfer case actuator?

If the problem does indeed turn out to be trans related. At your mileage, servicing it could be the nail in the coffin. I wouldn't use a machine to flush if you were going to go forward.

Does that 3.0si use a ZF 6HP?

Thanks for the reply!

I don't know the exact model number of the transmission but I can get that for you today with a peak at ISTA.

I did replace the transfer case actuator gear a while back as well as the case fluid. Everything was pretty much mint at the time. I tested the case and reset adaptations / calibrated it recently as an attempt to fix this issue. I used ISTA+ but it made no difference. When I did the flush on the case fluid the fluid looked to be in very good condition.

I'm thinking that the case isn't the culprit but, I've read posts about disconnecting the actuator cable and going for a drive to see if this helps. I haven't tried this yes but I'm willing to.

Something else I'm thinking of doing is remove the transmission fill plug to allow a little fluid out and have it tested.

[DEADF15H]

No shop wants to change the transmission fluid because most people don't change it until issues pop up. Then the change gets blamed when it finally seizes or reverse goes out.
ZF will tell you to gravity drain and change the filter no matter the mileage. Don't use a flush machine.
My E46 with a ZF has a Lifetime Fluid sticker on it but I actually emailed ZF and they said to change it. It now has 265,000 mi. with one of the worst transmissions put in a BMW. It's due for another change.
My E70 is overdue. The transfer case got done when the oil pan gasket was replaced at 185,000.
There may be some solenoids and seals that should be replaced while you have it open. I'm not sure. There are kits and documentation for the E46. I assume someone has it for the E70.
This may get into a long drawn out discussion on whether to or not to change, but there's no way transmission fluid keeps all its lubrication properties after 100,000 miles. I understand the argument about ports getting clogged, but that's really rare. It's normally the torque converter.
It's lifetime fluid because when the tyranny goes it cost more to replace than the value of the car.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[crystalworks]

Have you done your differential fluids? Front/Rear? Not sure it fits your symptoms, but that front diff sees a lot of heat and the fluid gets really nasty.

As far as the trans. If it is a 6HP. You could attempt a service but just a drain and fill. Do not machine flush. If you are sure it's the trans causing your issue, I'd do the 4 tube seals, the bridge seal, and then fill it up with Valvoline Maxlife ATF (has to be multivehicle). Be sure to follow the fill procedure.

^ But that's only if you have exhausted other possibilities. If the trans dies (mine did when I threw a hail mary at it after the E clutch bushing failed), paying someone is very costly, if anyone even wants to touch it. Shops act as if ZF transmissions are magic black boxes. I did it myself to replace on my wife's diesel and it still cost near $1200 in parts. More if you include the "while I'm in there" parts list.

[mejim707]

Originally Posted by crystalworks

Have you done your differential fluids? Front/Rear? Not sure it fits your symptoms, but that front diff sees a lot of heat and the fluid gets really nasty.

As far as the trans. If it is a 6HP. You could attempt a service but just a drain and fill. Do not machine flush. If you are sure it's the trans causing your issue, I'd do the 4 tube seals, the bridge seal, and then fill it up with Valvoline Maxlife ATF (has to be multivehicle). Be sure to follow the fill procedure.

^ But that's only if you have exhausted other possibilities. If the trans dies (mine did when I threw a hail mary at it after the E clutch bushing failed), paying someone is very costly, if anyone even wants to touch it. Shops act as if ZF transmissions are magic black boxes. I did it myself to replace on my wife's diesel and it still cost near $1200 in parts. More if you include the "while I'm in there" parts list.

So, if I bought a tube of the shudder fixx stuff, and put that in without loosing fluid, that would tell me definitively if this is from the transmission or not wouldn’t it? It seems like that would be a very easy and inexpensive thing to rule it out.

If that tells me this is from the trans, maybe at that point it would be safe to change the fluid? Thought on that?

Thank you!

[josiahg52]

It depends on what the shudder fix purports to fix, how it does that, and if your transmission is actually experiencing that failure mode. It might do nothing and it shouldn't need an additive like that to operate somewhat correctly. If it does something, how long will that effect last and what does it mean diagnostically for your transmission? What are your planned next steps then? Fact is, your transmission has 252k miles on it with probably zero service events which isn't half bad. All that to say, I don't think the shudder fix is a good discriminator for a transmission with this many miles on it.

ETA: Do not flush it.

[mejim707]

Originally Posted by josiahg52

It depends on what the shudder fix purports to fix, how it does that, and if your transmission is actually experiencing that failure mode. It might do nothing and it shouldn't need an additive like that to operate somewhat correctly. If it does something, how long will that effect last and what does it mean diagnostically for your transmission? What are your planned next steps then? Fact is, your transmission has 252k miles on it with probably zero service events which isn't half bad. All that to say, I don't think the shudder fix is a good discriminator for a transmission with this many miles on it.

ETA: Do not flush it.

Yes, in fact I have ISTA and scanned the entire car and there are no fault codes whatsoever in the transmission module.

My thinking was that this additive won't do harm to the transmission if it is in fact performing properly. But, if it's not performing properly, and the fault is with the clutches or torque converter, it will be an immediate and apparent improvement in drive dynamics and I'll know at that point that the transmission / clutch are at fault.

If I add it and nothing changes I'll continue to dig. But if it makes an improvement or "fixes" the issue then I would target my efforts on a fluid change followed by a transmission replacement if needed. I can do the work myself.

This car is so smooth and feels new. This is the only issue I'm facing. Low speed -> Mild throttle -> Shift -> Shudder -> Hesitation

[crystalworks]

Originally Posted by mejim707

Yes, in fact I have ISTA and scanned the entire car and there are no fault codes whatsoever in the transmission module.

My thinking was that this additive won't do harm to the transmission if it is in fact performing properly. But, if it's not performing properly, and the fault is with the clutches or torque converter, it will be an immediate and apparent improvement in drive dynamics and I'll know at that point that the transmission / clutch are at fault.

If I add it and nothing changes I'll continue to dig. But if it makes an improvement or "fixes" the issue then I would target my efforts on a fluid change followed by a transmission replacement if needed. I can do the work myself.

This car is so smooth and feels new. This is the only issue I'm facing. Low speed -> Mild throttle -> Shift -> Shudder -> Hesitation

The additive could "fix" the trans, or it could grenade it. No way to tell before doing it. It shouldn't... but we all know how that goes.

No codes at all eh in the EGS? If you are sure the trans is the source, and you are comfortable doing the work, and you really want to keep this X5, then I'd follow:

Step 1: Replace tube seals, bridge seal, mechatronic sleeve, trans pan/filter, and fill with Valvoline Maxlife multivehicle. Clear adaptations.

Step 2: If the above doesn't help. Or it hurts and makes it worse. I'd have the valve body rebuilt w/ Sonnax zip kit. ~$750 service, or $300 in parts if you do it. I paid WorldWideSpecialties to do it for me. Clear adaptations.

Step 3: If above fails. Source low-mileage transmission w/ torque converter. Found mine for $800 shipped with 88k on the clock. Confirmed by getting VIN of vehicle it came out of and running it. Install your rebuilt valve body into it with original EGS (so no coding involved). New seals, pan, etc and clear adaptations.

Those are the steps I went through with our 35d and it shifts/drives like new. All in with PM parts (motor mounts, trans mount, vacuum lines, DPF cleaning, rear main seal, etc) I think it was ~$2000. We have 168000 on the truck. Remember, logically your truck is only worth $4000 at that mileage and with that issue. With a totally crapped trans... worth even less. So make sure to factor that into the value proposition. Ours is pretty nicely equipped and I couldn't send it to the scrap yard. But holy crap did it cost me time and back aches.

Note: Anytime you clear the trans adaptations it will drive like absolute dookie for 10-20 miles while it figures things out again. Mine bucked and even failsafed once. Just restart and keep driving. After a few miles it will get smoother and smoother.

[mejim707]

Originally Posted by crystalworks

The additive could "fix" the trans, or it could grenade it. No way to tell before doing it. It shouldn't... but we all know how that goes.

No codes at all eh in the EGS? If you are sure the trans is the source, and you are comfortable doing the work, and you really want to keep this X5, then I'd follow:

Step 1: Replace tube seals, bridge seal, mechatronic sleeve, trans pan/filter, and fill with Valvoline Maxlife multivehicle. Clear adaptations.

Step 2: If the above doesn't help. Or it hurts and makes it worse. I'd have the valve body rebuilt w/ Sonnax zip kit. ~$750 service, or $300 in parts if you do it. I paid WorldWideSpecialties to do it for me. Clear adaptations.

Step 3: If above fails. Source low-mileage transmission w/ torque converter. Found mine for $800 shipped with 88k on the clock. Confirmed by getting VIN of vehicle it came out of and running it. Install your rebuilt valve body into it with original EGS (so no coding involved). New seals, pan, etc and clear adaptations.

Those are the steps I went through with our 35d and it shifts/drives like new. All in with PM parts (motor mounts, trans mount, vacuum lines, DPF cleaning, rear main seal, etc) I think it was ~$2000. We have 168000 on the truck. Remember, logically your truck is only worth $4000 at that mileage and with that issue. With a totally crapped trans... worth even less. So make sure to factor that into the value proposition. Ours is pretty nicely equipped and I couldn't send it to the scrap yard. But holy crap did it cost me time and back aches.

Note: Anytime you clear the trans adaptations it will drive like absolute dookie for 10-20 miles while it figures things out again. Mine bucked and even failsafed once. Just restart and keep driving. After a few miles it will get smoother and smoother.

I have a little update. Yesterday on a trip out to get some much required pizza I noticed the car was shifting and driving much smother. It wasn't perfect, I'd say it was about 80%. But that's a step up form like 50% prior.

Today I took it for a long country drive under pretty much all driving conditions. The shudder only happened a few times on the entire trip and the trip was extensive with stop and go, hills, traffic, smooth country roads, dirt country roads and highways. I wanted to cover everything.

I'd say the car felt like 95% - 100%. I had reset the transmission adaptations a few drive cycles back so this maybe the adaptations are getting sorted out? Regardless, it is improving a lot.

I pulled the codes when I got back and I noticed a few new interesting ones.

2CFB and 5F78. Both have not occurred in the last number of driving cycles and both only happened once since resetting all transmission and engine adaptations and codes. You can see the faults and frequencies in the images attached. The one about the DSC I think was due to recently changing out my tire pressure monitors on all 4 wheels with new ones. The others were not working. I'll monitor and see if the DCS code comes back.

The other code about the throttle position adaptations struck my interest since I've seen others speak about that module failing in the pedal and causing a shudder issue. I'll keep monitoring that as well and report back with finding if it comes back.

One other concern is the engine temp. I grabbed a few screenshots form IMPA and the engine temp is in the green but near max after that long drive. Thoughts on this?

I'm also including a few others for the "Mechanical adjustment range VVT ​​from learning routine" and the DME Voltage. The battery was changed many years ago and at the time I didn't know about registering the battery so it was never done. Pep Boys sold the battery to me and didn't say anything about this while they helped change it in their parking lot. So I'm wondering if perhaps it's too close to overcharging?

Any thoughts on these things would be awesome! Thank you!

Throttle Adaptation Error 2CFB



Can't Read DSC Error 5F78



Injector Smooth Running Operation Values - LOOKS GOOD!



Motor Temp - Looks Sketchy!



DME Voltage - Looks Skethcy!



Valvetronic VVT Value - I Have No Clue...