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Old 01-25-2021, 10:20 AM
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Religious Differences – Does it Really Matter?

I think that this can be an interesting new thread topic since I know a number of you have very strong feelings about religion and its place in our country and the larger world. Some of us have written posts in other threads about our feelings about our own religious beliefs and what we think of other religions. The older I get, the more I see that many people are very ignorant about their professed religion, let alone about other religions. Many people just accept the tenants of the religion of their parents without really giving it much critical thought until they are much older. I agree with the basic realization that in our world’s history, more blood has been shed in the name of religion than any other reason. Misunderstanding different religions may be a major contributing factor to so many of the problems in not just our country, but around the world, throughout history.

We know that the 1st amendment of the U.S. Constitution forbids the establishment of religion, (i.e. either a state or national religion), hence known as “the establishment clause”. This means that no government agency, including public schools, can impose or promote a religious doctrine, including creationism.

But public schools may teach about history of the world’s major religions including ancient Greek and Egyptian religions, how one lead to another, how they compare, along with the history of atheism and agnosticism. I believe that it is naïve to pretend that the major traditional religions do not have important lessons to teach all of us. For many centuries, religion was a huge part of most people’s lives forming their cultures and had an enormous impact on the development of human society, including important aspect of ethics and morality. IMHO, it does not make any sense to just pretend that religion is not important or never happened, for the sake of overzealous secularism.

I believe that public schools in the U.S. should offer religion as part of the curriculum starting around age 15 or the 9th grade. Such a classroom study should include a broad survey of the major world religions, including Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Taoism, etc. as well as non-religious ideas of atheism and humanism, without any sense of imposing any particular belief on the students. The teachers should discuss, in an open-minded and vaguely Socratic way, what the articles of faith are for each religion, without making any judgment as to the truth of one or the other or endorsement.

I did not have that exposure to in-depth religious education in high school and foolishly, elected not to take any religious history courses in college, for which I deeply regret with 20/20 hindsight. So, I have made up for it by reading and listening to audio books on different religions to learn about them. I strongly believe that in this day and age especially, with so much of the strife in the world predicated by age old religious beliefs, prejudices and disputes, it is vital that America’s youth, (and adults), proactively learn and gain a basic accurate knowledge and understanding of the world’s religions and their associated beliefs, values, practices, traditions and as importantly, their influence on individuals, communities, societies and cultures.

Once students have had this education and can then reflect upon the experiences and the mysteries of life and the various contributions, (both positive and negative), that religion has played throughout history up to present day, then they hopefully will appreciate what is different and what is the same about all of us. Then and only then, will they be in an ideal position to consider and form their own feelings, opinions regarding religion and decide what they believe.

If you are interested in this topic, please share your thoughts..

AVB-AMG
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Old 01-25-2021, 10:22 AM
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FYI - my mother was raised Catholic and my father was raised Lutheran and when they married they decided to meet halfway in religious doctrine and compromise and became Episcopalians. For them, as Christians, they clearly did not have absolute devotion to a particular denomination branch of Christianity. Therefore, theologically, I was baptized, raised, educated and confirmed as an Episcopalian. Years ago, I gave up contributing money to that church and instead have been giving to charities that I believe truly help people, where most of my donation actually goes towards their stated cause and not to support or perpetuate their bureaucracy.

As a result of my ongoing quest to explore different cultures and being exposed to different ideas, and thoughtfully considering them, I would say that I am currently more closely aligned with the natural beliefs of Deism. Essentially, the belief in reason and nature leading to the acceptance and existence of a supreme being, that I call God, who was the creator, who got everything started, but does not intervene after that, does not answer prayers and is indifferent. I find that I am more sympathetic to the deist beliefs than all of the rules and teachings of the other traditional, main line religions of including Christianity, Judaism, Islam and Hinduism. I still need to learn about Buddhism before I can form an opinion about it. I also accept the scientific understanding of the evolution of life and also believe that in my lifetime that I (we), will never know the answers to all of life's larger questions. I would also be comfortable being referred to as a rational secular humanist who has an ongoing urge to continue my education, learning new things, before I form my opinion.

I know that friends of mine who are very religious say they think that they are happier than our mutual non-religious friends. I can see how that might be the case in that with their absolute faith, they do not question many of the larger world/universal questions that we/(I) do, since they believe that they have already been answered according to the scriptures of the tenants of their religion.

For what it is worth, if you are not aware of Deism, you may want to check out the web site links below and see what it is all about. FYI - some of America's founding fathers were said to be deists or at the very least, had deist leanings, and included Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and George Washington>

http://www.deism.com/deism_defined.htm

http://www.deism.com/deistamerica.htm

What religion, if any do you subscribe to?
If you are not religious, are you spiritual in some form?

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Last edited by AVB-AMG; 01-25-2021 at 10:32 AM.
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Old 01-25-2021, 10:24 AM
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Today, and for the past 15+ years, I do not attend church services and have been questioning more and more, all of the canonized "rules" associated with various religions. I will admit that I have always enjoyed and still do, many of the traditional Christian hymns and music, especially when performed with an organ and choir in an acoustically marvelous large church or cathedral.

I do find it rather cynically amusing how many Americans of various religious faiths, have decided to rationalize and compromise many of the dogmatic tenants of their faiths, to “have their cake and eat it to....”. Many of us know of and have American Catholic and Jewish friends who selectively decide what teachings and rules of their religion they consider sinful or not and chose to abide by or disregard in their lives on a daily basis, (i.e. contraception, abortion, living with a partner outside of marriage, gay/lesbian marriage, eating only Kosher meals, observing the Sabbath, etc…).

FYI, I respect that people can and should chose to believe whatever they want as long as they do not impose or force their beliefs on me. To be clear, at this point, I really do not care for most traditional organized religions, and have a particular disdain for those who are fundamentalist, orthodox believers of any faith since they are usually the least tolerant of “others”, of any different faith or belief/non-belief. Essentially it also comes down to the whole litany of silly rules that I object to. I believe that one does not need to be religious to be a good, moral and ethical person.

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Old 01-25-2021, 11:35 AM
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Religious Differences – Does it Really Matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AVB-AMG View Post
Today, and for the past 15+ years, I do not attend church services and have been questioning more and more, all of the canonized "rules" associated with various religions. I will admit that I have always enjoyed and still do, many of the traditional Christian hymns and music, especially when performed with an organ and choir in an acoustically marvelous large church or cathedral.

AVB-AMG

Remember, The Bible Never Mentions A Building Called ‘Church’
By John

Recently, I wrote this piece, encouraging people who love God but who for any number of reasons find themselves outside of a traditional church.

A number of Fundamentalist Christians objected. So I thought I’d take a few moments to share why the Church as a building was never the point to Jesus and the early Church:

Jesus teaches Kingdom, not building. The Gospel biographies are filled with evocative, vivid parables, all about the Kingdom of God. They were Jesus’ central teaching. But this kingdom He speaks about is not a where but a when.

It is the state of the world when people acknowledge God; when God is honored and worshipped and respected—the Kingdom is present.

Throughout the Gospels, you can find Jesus teaching on the characteristics of His Kingdom people as they reflect the character of God in the world. The Church was never about brick and mortar. It was always greater than that. It was about a way of being in the world.

Jesus tells Peter he is the rock of the Church. He affirms His disciple Peter’s faith and character, and says that he will be the foundation of the Kingdom community as it grows.

Jesus isn’t hiring Peter—a fisherman by trade—as a subcontractor to erect a building with a steeple. He only notes Peter’s devotion, and tells him to continue the Kingdom work he’d already begun. He is to steward the people of God: no building campaign, no weekly services.

How the Church Is Built. People are the building blocks.

Jesus feeds the 5,000. A crowd has been listening to Jesus teach on a remote hillside, and the nearest Chick-Fil-A is still 2,000 years away. The gathering there is a mix of the invested, the curious and the skeptical. No sanctuary or liturgy; only Jesus speaking about God in real-time and then sharing a meal with those gathered on the hillside.

That would be the model throughout the New Testament: Gather. Eat. Share. Remember me. Live.

The book of Hebrews says that we don’t need a middle man. Writing to Jewish believers in Jesus, the author makes it clear that a human high priest is no longer needed as a liaison between ourselves and God—that God was not encountered only in the temple.

Jesus gives us each direct access to Divinity.

I grew up Catholic, believing the priest was an intermediary for me and that a variety of saints gave me special connection to God. This isn’t what the New Testament teaches. The priest, rabbi, minister or pastor is not magic. They can be helpful, but they’re not essential and they’re not supernatural. And yes, because of this, you can have access to God wherever you are—no matter how modest or ordinary the surroundings might be.

The Church grows without a building campaign. The early believers were essentially in-house churches, where immediate family, extended family and friends were already living in deep, meaningful community together. They didn’t have to rent out space and a sound system and start service planning.

They were already living life together organically and so they didn’t need to create a destination to foster community. These groups absorbed the new converts, but there is no evidence of the healthy evolution of these communities into organized churches. The only mention we have is in the book of Revelation, where large, opulent churches are being chastised for their corruption and apathy.

God With Us
Jesus says where two or three are gathered He is present. Two or three—not 40 or 150 or 6,000. Not an auditorium with a speaker, a band and dozens of rows of chairs.

This is Emmanuel “God with us.” Jesus never promises that with size or organization that there would be more of His presence. He didn’t leave building instructions or establish an organizational structure or provide liturgical templates. He affirmed that his people and his presence were the only necessary ingredients. They would come to the table together, and He would take a seat there with them. Your kitchen table, a bar in a tap-room, a bench at the park, a coffee shop. He is present there.

He said so.

The Apostle Paul tells us we are the Temple. In his letter to the Corinthians, Paul writes to tell Christians in that city that God’s presence is not just above and around them but within them. They are the very “Body of Christ” on earth, they are the “temple of the Holy Spirit”—living, breathing sanctuaries.

The idea of them needing to visit a specific place to have proximity to God was now ludicrous. They were the place. They needed only to go inward. This is the heart of the Church then. It still is; not where they gather, but as they gather.

Jesus tells the disciples to remember Him. At their final meal before His death, Jesus offers bread and wine as a symbol of his coming sacrifice. He then asks them to remember him when they break bread together in the future.

He is not telling them to establish a weekly worship service or to create a rigid liturgy or to institute a sacrament. He is commanding them not to forget Him; to live together and to eat and to remember. No sanctuary is necessary for this. This is a fully portable experience.

The truth is Jesus was teaching something very different from what the word “church” means to us today. We’ve grown up in the building and the system and the tradition, so we believe that this is the Church. But the Church as a place you visit for an hour on Sunday where God shows up, or where community can solely be found—simply isn’t Biblical.

Jesus’ ministry was about de-centralizing religion, so that the people carried it, not the synagogue or temple or the sanctuary.

Again, you may find that building comforting or edifying, and you may find inspiration and wisdom there. That may be spiritual community for you. But don’t assume that this building has the market cornered on any of those things, and don’t cheapen the spiritual journey of those outside of the building, by acting as if everything found there cannot also be found beyond it. It can. Over and over the Bible makes this clear.

Jesus and Rest

A Christian guy sarcastically called out a quote from my previous piece saying, “Oh, I get to grow closer to God, just by taking a nap? Cool!”

I reminded him of the disciples finding Jesus asleep in the back of the boat in the middle of the storm, about the many times he withdrew to the solitary places to rest, about Peter hearing from God in a dream, and of the words of the 23rd Psalm where the writer describes God’s provision:

The Lord is my shepherd, I lack nothing.
He makes me lie down in green pastures,
he leads me beside quiet waters,
he refreshes my soul.
In other words, “What I most need is God to tell me to trust and take a nap.” I think that’s a holy directive.

So yes, this Sunday, you might be in a building somewhere in a traditional worship service.

You might be talking faith and life with a group of friends in your home.

You might be taking a nap alone on a grassy field by a steam.

You might be with a couple of people, breaking bread and remembering that God’s presence is promised there, and living life with reverence and gratitude.

All equally sacred. All equally holy. All you being the Biblical Church.

Maybe we shouldn’t be so cavalier or so quick to debate people’s understanding or experience of Church—especially when it so closely matches Jesus’.
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Old 01-25-2021, 11:43 AM
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I believe that you are expanding what was said in the 1st Amendment with the letter written by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association (very common) hence the misguided belief that say schools cannot be religious or that something in the vein of the 10 Commandments are prohibited from display on public lands.

By the way Thomas Jefferson's letter is where people get the the phrase separation of church and state a phrase not found anywhere in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights.

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Old 01-25-2021, 11:53 AM
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Happy:

Thank you for your eloquent assertion, using Christian biblical examples, to promote the argument that one does not need to have or be inside a physical structure of a religious building in order to practice one’s religious faith or to commune with a higher being, (God). You and I agree on that point.

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Old 01-25-2021, 12:07 PM
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Religious Differences – Does it Really Matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AVB-AMG View Post
FYI, I respect that people can and should chose to believe whatever they want as long as they do not impose or force their beliefs on me. To be clear, at this point, I really do not care for most traditional organized religions, and have a particular disdain for those who are fundamentalist, orthodox believers of any faith since they are usually the least tolerant of “others”, of any different faith or belief/non-belief. Essentially it also comes down to the whole litany of silly rules that I object to. I believe that one does not need to be religious to be a good, moral and ethical person.

AVB-AMG
Christian, yes.

Orthodox, yes.

Non denominational, yes.

Fundamentalist, no.

You should not despise what you don’t know.

I do not believe it is right to force one’s beliefs on another, and I am very tolerant of others beliefs, whether I agree with them or not.

Matthew 7:5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

This scripture is a perfect example. I personally have enough of my own problems, to be worrying about what my neighbor is practicing. However, I will help my neighbor in any way possible to the best of my means and abilities.

For me there are two rules/commandments that I follow,

Matthew 22:36-40

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’

38 This is the first and greatest commandment.

39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’

40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Loving someone whether their a Christian or not is not an option for me in my belief.
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Old 01-25-2021, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AVB-AMG View Post
Happy:

Thank you for your eloquent assertion, using Christian biblical examples, to promote the argument that one does not need to have or be inside a physical structure of a religious building in order to practice one’s religious faith or to commune with a higher being, (God). You and I agree on that point.

AVB-AMG

You’re welcome. That’s the amazing thing about God, he brings peace to his creation through his Son.

I as well, do not approve of politics in the (body of Christ) church either. There’s no place for it!

Now, the political forum... Thats a different story. LoL...
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Old 01-25-2021, 01:17 PM
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Good luck having a religion or theology class being permitted in public primary education. People don't have the tolerance for that sort of thing.

I was raised Catholic, attended Sunday school, and had a couple years at a Catholic School (5th and 6th). Rest of schooling was public through about 6 different schools (military brat). I am very grateful for the couple of years at that Catholic school. They were strict, but very good academically. And most importantly, emphasized exposure to other religions. We went to temples, mosques, and cathedrals for field trips. Now I'm atheist/agnostic, but the exposure was great in terms of instilling a tolerance for others beliefs. Almost a disregard, but in a good way. If it helps you be a better person, more power to you as long as you're not pushing those beliefs on me.

Our kids are being raised Christian (wife's religion). I help teach my daughter's bible study every day while she's home schooled, after which she'll go back to a Christian private school. She will have the same ability to choose for herself as she matures as to her beliefs.

As with political beliefs, differences in religious beliefs don't change that we are Americans and that we have to coexist. A certain level of respect towards people should be expected but has been lost it seems.
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Old 01-25-2021, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crystalworks View Post
Good luck having a religion or theology class being permitted in public primary education. People don't have the tolerance for that sort of thing.

As with political beliefs, differences in religious beliefs don't change that we are Americans and that we have to coexist. A certain level of respect towards people should be expected but has been lost it seems.
crystalworks:

Sadly, I have to agree with all three of your stated assumptions. Maybe we should start slowly and advocate that we all should follow the Golden Rule, then see if we can progress from there.

Happy:

At the risk of coming off as glib, in many respects today, for many people: politics is the new religion....

AVB-AMG
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