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  #21  
Old 10-12-2021, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by ard View Post
Hmm. So a couple of points....


Lets say this was ebola- with a 98% death rate and highly contagious.... I assume you would fully support no restrictions, no masks, kids n school- full 'freedoms"? Yes?
Please reread my post. I believe in choice. In your theoretically situation with ebola I would continue to support choice. A business can choose its restrictions and people can choose to shop from that business. That being said, it would be in the businesses best interest to impose certain restrictions that would align with public opinion. Else, they would loose many costumers. I'll also explicitly state that discriminatory restrictions would not be allowed under any circumstances. The government can impose restrictions on government property such as public schools.

Question: Do you think restrictions based on the covid vaccine should be considered discriminatory? What are your thoughts on the "my body, my choice" movement?

I am not trapping you with those questions as I do not know the answers.

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Originally Posted by ard View Post
and speaking of hypocrisy... Twitter, facebook- all private businesses and can fully decide who gets to 'go' into their businesses, right? You fully support them dropping, say, every elected republican? Hypothetically speaking. Or kick out Christians. Or drop anyone that doesnt check a box saying "I believe in vaccines".... Or whatever zuckerburg wants, yes? (just a quick hypocrisy check...)
As long as they're not discriminating against race, colour, religion, national origin or disability then I wouldn't have an issue.


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Originally Posted by ard View Post
and (still checking) you would be 10000% against any government rule that forced Facebook and twitter to allow anyone in? Governemtn has no role, only private businesses should have full unfettered control of who uses their private 'space'.
Yes. That being said, they cannot be discriminating and they must have valid a reason to exclude someone. Violating Facebooks terms of service has consequences and although I may not agree with these terms I accept that Facebook has the right to deny people access onto their website. If there is a dispute regarding a section of the terms then the issue should be addressed by the courts and not the government.

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Originally Posted by ard View Post
Next point....

This insistence that we 'politely debate' anti-vax morons, and the evil pieces of crap that work hard to undermine our societies with these lies is quite something. They are liars, they are seeking to kill people and destabilize our societies for their political, financial purposes. (international groups are driving this conflict in liberal democracies- canada, Australia, US...EU... Russia? Or just the criminal oligarchs that live outside over governmental constraints??)



Your thinking is that we should treat everone as a confused but totally rational fellow citizen- we just pull up a chair and get them gently educated? I mean this might work for a misguided youth or confused aunt.... but this is far from that. IMO when someone is taking hard antivax positions online- posting it, repeating it, THEY are part of the problem!
I can tell you're passionate about this topic and that's great. Personally I have a tough time understanding what's going on as I'm constantly bombarded with contradiction information from people who claim to be professionals and experts. I'm sorry if you feel I'm trying to destabilize society as that's not my intention.

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Originally Posted by ard View Post
And the third point.



Speaking of kinder and gentler....
Your theory on vaccine mutations is incoherent and -if I get what you are saying- insane. You seem to be saying that vaccinated people are creating a unique risk since- if there is a mutation 'in them'- it will 'get around' the vaccine and be some kind of superbug?!? Seriously? Where do you get your science? Facebook?!? This feels like anti-vax BS that tries to leverage the efficacy slippage w/ Delta to undermine the whole vaccine effort. and toss in a bit of 'lets blame the vaccinated' (hint- viruses do not respond to vaccines like antibiotic resistance superbugs.) But really, this is some utter nonsense. If you have a link, would like to see where this nonsense is coming from. Disinformation in its finest.


(and I am serious on this last point, Id like to see where this comes from..)
We know (feel free to correct any of these statements):

- The purpose of covid (and any virus) is to spread to as many people as possible. This is necessary for its survival. The more people infected with covid the less like to go extinct.
- Being highly infectious can sometimes result in a death. This is not good for both covid and the human. If the human dies covid dies.
- mutations occur. Mutations that are not feasible do not transmit (i.e too deadly, not infectious enough etc etc)
- The optimal situation for covid is high transmission with low fatality.

Can we agree on these points?

Now, introduce Pfizer into 70% of the population. After the Pfizer jab you'll be more immune to covid. The key problem is you're not fully immune. This results in breakthrough cases among the vaccinated population. With these cases come mutations and there is a chance covid could mutate against the Pfizer jab. This could result in covid being more infectious in the vaccinated population. This is fine for the vaccinated people as covid's intention is to spread among as many people as possible. Now, there's a chance this mutation could be much more severe among the unvaccinated population because as we agreed the unvaccinated people have a weaker immune system.

Let me know what you don't understand and I'll do my best to explain it. If you think the virus will act differently in the vaccinated population I'll also do my best to understand. I welcome you to prove me wrong and acknowledge the fact that I could be incorrect.
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  #22  
Old 10-13-2021, 12:51 AM
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Like you E53Envyy, I am very pro choice on an individual and corporate level, with exceptions in both cases of course.

I am against seat belt mandates for adults, I am against the mandates for companies to require vaccination, and I am against governors (like mine in Texas) punishing companies who choose to require the vaccination. Employers (non-gov't) should have a choice, and employees should have the choice to work there or not. Schools have always been able to require shots for students, the pfizer vaccine is now fully approved, that should no longer be a point of contention. If a parent does not like the requirement, pull your kid out and enroll them in another school, or (as we have) home school them.

That said, anyone choosing not to the get the vaccine is rolling the dice and taking a chance they will not have bad symptoms or hospitalization as a result of getting infected. Which they will. At some point, we will all be exposed. But the fact that the vaccine, in most cases, reduces infection by a large factor, and then by a higher factor reduces severe symptoms, and then an even higher factor reduces hospitalization is, I would hope, proven by now. Anyone denying that is a zealot for some reason or another, whether it be politics, religion, etc. The only valid reason, to me, for not taking the shot is those afraid to take it because it might have long term effects. Which we won't know for decades. But again, they are risking their health and possibly lives on that. Which is their right. If anyone says that is their chosen reason, then I have no issue. Only time will tell who made the right call in that regards.
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  #23  
Old 10-13-2021, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E53Envyy View Post
Please reread my post. I believe in choice. In your theoretically situation with ebola I would continue to support choice.

Sorry, Im not going to sacrifice society- or large portions of society- for the pyrrhic victory of "i supported free choice".



If you honesly believe 'government has no right to prevent individual from spreading ebola if they so choose' you are -frankly- nuts



Quote:
Originally Posted by E53Envyy View Post
A business can choose its restrictions and people can choose to shop from that business. That being said, it would be in the businesses best interest to impose certain restrictions that would align with public opinion. Else, they would loose many costumers. I'll also explicitly state that discriminatory restrictions would not be allowed under any circumstances.


Im fine with that if it is simply their policy around free bread sticks or unlimited refills.

Spreading contagions isnt something we can allow 'the marketplace' tor work out



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Originally Posted by E53Envyy View Post
The government can impose restrictions on government property such as public schools.

So the government can mandate vaccines and masks in schools? We agree.


Quote:
Originally Posted by E53Envyy View Post
Question: Do you think restrictions based on the covid vaccine should be considered discriminatory?
No I do not. You have free choice to decide which group you are in. (and I consider someone with a BONA FIDE medical condition that prevents vaccination to be exempt from vaccines


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Originally Posted by E53Envyy View Post
What are your thoughts on the "my body, my choice" movement?
I think the government should be able to kill babies in utero.


But seriously, apples and cardboard. A womens choice affects ONLY herself. And unborn fetus- prior to X weeks- is not a 'baby'. her choice.


Its only when someone decides the feotus is a 'child' at, say, 6 weeks, that there this becomes problematic.


I am troubled by abortion, slightly. But I have the luxury of intellect to not have to approach everything in life with a fundamentalist absolutism. Being an atheist may help too.





Quote:
Originally Posted by E53Envyy View Post
Yes. That being said, they cannot be discriminating and they must have valid a reason to exclude someone. Violating Facebooks terms of service has consequences and although I may not agree with these terms I accept that Facebook has the right to deny people access onto their website. If there is a dispute regarding a section of the terms then the issue should be addressed by the courts and not the government.

Wait. The courts are an arm of our government....



Quote:
Originally Posted by E53Envyy View Post
I can tell you're passionate about this topic and that's great. Personally I have a tough time understanding what's going on as I'm constantly bombarded with contradiction information from people who claim to be professionals and experts. I'm sorry if you feel I'm trying to destabilize society as that's not my intention.

Cool


There are some topics on which I dont need to fully trust professionals and experts. Medicine, clinical trials, virology and public health being some of these. But I feel I am in a minority.


Might I offer this? Id be happy to say YOU are not seeking to destabilse society, if you could allow that it appears that there ARE forces that are seeking to do so? back when the tea party arrived with their "we're gonna brun it all down" approach, I just ignored this. But now, we have a good many people saying civil war/secession may be inevitable. We've never seen it this bad....congressmen saying they may need to take up arms against heir fellow man.




Quote:
Originally Posted by E53Envyy View Post
We know (feel free to correct any of these statements):

- The purpose of covid (and any virus) is to spread to as many people as possible. This is necessary for its survival. The more people infected with covid the less like to go extinct.
- Being highly infectious can sometimes result in a death. This is not good for both covid and the human. If the human dies covid dies.
- mutations occur. Mutations that are not feasible do not transmit (i.e too deadly, not infectious enough etc etc)
- The optimal situation for covid is high transmission with low fatality.

Can we agree on these points?

Yes, only slight quibbles.


Keep in mind that atibuting purpose and intent to a virus- while handy and attractive- can be wrong.

For example, the virus may 'make a mistake'- and become 100% lethal. Wiping out inslef and humanity. It cannot 'decide' to not do this.

We are, in many ways, lucky it is only ~1.6% lethal.


[QUOTE=E53Envyy;1211190]Now, introduce Pfizer into 70% of the population. After the Pfizer jab you'll be more immune to covid. The key problem is you're not fully immune. This results in breakthrough cases among the vaccinated population. With these cases come mutations and there is a chance covid could mutate against the Pfizer jab. This could result in covid being more infectious in the vaccinated population. This is fine for the vaccinated people as covid's intention is to spread among as many people as possible. Now, there's a chance this mutation could be much more severe among the unvaccinated population because as we agreed the unvaccinated people have a weaker immune system.[quote]


Ive seen this (wrong) theory espoused in quite a few places.

You are confusing 'antibiotic resistant mutations' into a vaccine. very different thing.


1. All vaccines are less than 100%. You only think policy, diphtheria and others are '100%' because we have=- largely- eradicated these diseases. Pfizer will be fine once we have (1) 90% coverage or (2) a vaccine that is 95% matched to delta with 70% coverage.


2.The wild card is/was delta. Delta changed everything. If we had gotten 4-6 more months before detla took over, life would be different.


IN FACT, covid DID MUTATE 'against' the pfizer jab. not because of the jab. It mutates in people with the jab and without. having the jab WILL NOT increase the odds of it 'learning how to avoid the jab'.





Quote:
Originally Posted by E53Envyy View Post
Let me know what you don't understand and I'll do my best to explain it. If you think the virus will act differently in the vaccinated population I'll also do my best to understand. I welcome you to prove me wrong and acknowledge the fact that I could be incorrect.

Well, hope I did.


Remember the vaccine doesnt 'block' the virus directly. It isnt a chemical compound that- when present acts on the viruse to revent it from replicating.



It simply tells your body 'kill THIS thing'. there is utterly NO interaction between the virus and the vaccine, so the virus cannot mutate 'around' it by using it's presence as a template or aid. (It *can* mutate around it by chance, and has and will. But this is just a numbers game. every person that gets the jab is one LESS chance for a viral infection to mutate. or more accurate, 100 million less chances. Each replication is a chance. And even if the vaccinated person does get an infection, every reduction in replication- full blown infection or not- is a lowered chance of a mutation that will escape the vaccine. So a light case of covid that throws off 100,000,000 viral particles is better than a long heavy case with 10 billion replications.





Finally, lets hope they get a vaccine for all coronaviruses. Not just covid19, but every one. The mother of all. I think we will see this, in our lifetime. 4-5 years.
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  #24  
Old 10-13-2021, 04:10 PM
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In April of 2020, I was discussing this with someone...


I am very much a data/privacy nut. Like extreme. (Sued an health insurer (and won) to prohibit their collection of my SSN. So dedicated.)


But I realized that we had a way of using technology to create 'automated track and trace'. The cost to our privacy would be extreme, but perhaps the benefit to all of us in society would be on balance a good thing. Was it possible to get buy-in to this?



Then some of the asian countries began this- china, korea.



I came to realize it was a non-starter here, but had I foreseen the anti-mask, anti-vaccine lunacy, Id have realized how moronic my musings really were.
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  #25  
Old 10-14-2021, 08:43 PM
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Has any of you conversating here been infected with covid?
Haven't had COVID19. I have followed the CDC guidelines faithfully. I got vaccinated as soon as it was available to me and have had the booster shoot. I still wear a mask in any place I can't social distance. I still don't go out as much as I did pre Covid and it doesn't bother me.

Early on I lost my brother-in-law and a friend not that long ago. Neither had not been vaccinated.

I will never understand those that still don't accept getting vaccinated is the best thing they can do for themselves and their loved ones.

There are times when we know just enough to be dangerous and don't know we are. Sometimes one should trust the experts, those that have spent years specializing in infectious diseases. I have lots of education and the best result is I know how little I know and when it is best to trust an expert.
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  #26  
Old 10-15-2021, 02:25 PM
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Whether a virus is alive or not is an ongoing debate among Microbiologists. It's easiest to understand, as laypersons, that they are alive. The key difference in the two points of view is a virus must have a host to replicate, therefore, if it must have a host to replicate it isn't alive.

To be considered alive depends on the definition of life. It may be a moot point if the road to treatment, vaccine and eradication are the same for all viruses, but it is one indication of the challenges of microbiologists and where we are on the learning curve.

A new virus has no history so countermeasures start from scratch. In the meantime the best line of defense, currently and historically, has been the wearing of masks, avoiding crowds and social distancing. Since the current rate of infection is not under control those historical initial measures are still applicable.

By current statistics states dominated by republicans have highest rate of infection which strongly indicates the political bias of following the guidelines and getting vaccinated. In addition, Florida and Texas show high rates of infections and those are two of the states where governors have implemented executive orders stopping businesses and schools from implementing guidelines. Those are real, on the ground facts that are easy to understand and conclude what causes high rates of infection and what we can do to stop the spread.

In short, as laypersons technical data is easy to blow holes in but we don't know enough about the details to draw those conclusions. When we don't know enough about an electrical problem we call an electrician, when we have a plumbing problem beyond our capability we call a plumber. But when we surely don't know enough about COVID19 we make our own decisions and openly disagree with the experts. Where is the logic in that?

A forum is an example of both avenues. I applaud when someone takes the risk to ask for help because they recognize it is time to find an answer from someone that knows more than they do. On the other hand there are those that immediately draw a conclusion and advise what parts to buy when it is only from their personal experience rather than expertise. Do you have the expertise to draw your own conclusions about COVID rather than ask and follow the input of experts that know tons more about what to do to end the COVID health crisis than you do?
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  #27  
Old 10-15-2021, 03:06 PM
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My whole family had it before the vaccine was available. I would define our symptoms as flu like symptoms which we all fully recovered from with no hospitalization or doctor visits. We monitored our vitals and especially oxygen saturation due to becoming winded after walking up some stairs. Saturation always stayed above 96%. My 70 yr old mother had little to no symptoms outside of loss of taste and smell. This is just my experience. I still take precautions as needed. Overall, I think people aren't against the vaccine but are more against the attempt to mandate. If you decided to get the vaccine to protect yourself than the discussion should end there. You made that choice in an attempt to protect yourself from the virus.
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Old 10-15-2021, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Purplecty View Post
My whole family had it before the vaccine was available. I would define our symptoms as flu like symptoms which we all fully recovered from with no hospitalization or doctor visits. We monitored our vitals and especially oxygen saturation due to becoming winded after walking up some stairs. Saturation always stayed above 96%. My 70 yr old mother had little to no symptoms outside of loss of taste and smell. This is just my experience. I still take precautions as needed. Overall, I think people aren't against the vaccine but are more against the attempt to mandate. If you decided to get the vaccine to protect yourself than the discussion should end there. You made that choice in an attempt to protect yourself from the virus.
Glad you experience was not serious. I assume no one was vaccinated? Was no one eligible or why did they make the choice not to be vaccinated?

The isn't much difference between a law and a mandate. For example, if a governor issued a mandate that if one was caught going 40mph in the left lane of a freeway then would go to jail for 30 days, how many people would defy the mandate intentionally because they are free to do as they choose? And how many would say it is about time, their freedom put me at risk? Mandate or law the rationale is to protect those potentially being negatively impacted by another's decision or those driving 40 in the passing lane from a dangerous choice.
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  #29  
Old 10-15-2021, 03:48 PM
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The Vaccine was not available at that point. I dont like to debate about it. Just stating my experience. Im reluctant to get the vaccine myself after fully recovering and I honestly don't plan to get it since I have a high anti body count. That's my choice to make and I will live or die with it. Would I tell anyone to get it or not? Nope! that is their decision to make!
I also never get a flu shot and am strong as a bull throughout all seasons!
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  #30  
Old 10-15-2021, 04:20 PM
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The Vaccine was not available at that point. I dont like to debate about it. Just stating my experience. Im reluctant to get the vaccine myself after fully recovering and I honestly don't plan to get it since I have a high anti body count. That's my choice to make and I will live or die with it. I also never get a flu shot and am strong as a bull throughout all seasons!
No intent to debate, just wondering.

Again wondering. Having had COVID in your family, knowing what you know now, if the vaccine had been available prior, would any of the family have gotten vaccinated?.

FYI, experts have not determined how long the antibodies are sufficient protection and not all that have been infected have antibodies. One study found that 88% showed no evidence of antibodies. Current recommendation is to get vaccinated even if one has already recovered from being infected.
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