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-   -   55plate 3.0d Vacuum issues... (https://xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-forums/x5-e53-forum/109324-55plate-3-0d-vacuum-issues.html)

Clunk84 11-25-2018 04:42 PM

55plate 3.0d Vacuum issues...
 
Hi guys new to the site so firstly thanks for having me!!

I was wondering if anyone could tell me what the vacuum pressure should be supplying the wastegate control valve..

when mine gets to -18 psi it causes massive hesitation and lack of power it also makes the turbo howl a little even at idle and the wastegate control valve struggles to actuate..

at the moment there is a "T" fitted prior to the valve which goes to a check valve which requires approx. 7-8 psi to pull open thus regulating the vacuum to -11 psi.. all being said this is a bodge and I'm not happy leaving it like it as there must be something wrong. im struggling to find any info on the vacuum system i.e what components if any regulate it...

this all leads from my exhaust manifold leaking for a while which I was putting off changing then all of a sudden I noticed a huge drop in power it wouldn't even change up gear and I was getting diesel slap through lack of air so I presumed the manifold had split to a point where it wasn't spooling the turbo up enough...

anyhow new manifold fitted and still sporadic power loss issues so new maf sensor, new wastegate control valve and another pressure sensor I cant recollect which one and also a new diesel filter and still the problem remains , the only thing which cured it was dropping the vacuum pressure, but I have still since experienced a power cut-out at 100 when I held my foot to the floor and it changed up to 6th I then began to slow right down to 85 until I let off and on again....??? ( on private marsh roads of course!!) its almost as if I lost all torque or the ecu cut the fuel....

sorry for running on its just I'm at the end of my tether with it and I'm £1500 down and still have a car I cant trust!:(

Any help or ideas would be much appreciated and thank you in advance

wpoll 11-25-2018 08:47 PM

Firstly, your turbo doesn't have a waste-gate. The turbo is a variable geometry turbo. The vacuum actuator controls the turbo boost via changing the geometry of the turbine inlet.

Have you checked the pressure converter? This controls the vaccum to the VGT actuator.

https://static.schmiedmann.dk/Produc..._30349_big.jpg

Clunk84 11-26-2018 03:35 AM

thank you for your reply..

I questioned that with my mechanic and he said it was a wastegate?!! I asked him if it was variable but he was quite adamant its a wastegate.

I believe that is the part that has been changed yes it controls the plunger on the side of the turbo and moves it in or out about 12mm.

we hthought it was this as the plunger was previously moving slowly due to the soot build up on the filter of it due to the manifold leak.....

wpoll 11-26-2018 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clunk84 (Post 1147223)
thank you for your reply..

I questioned that with my mechanic and he said it was a wastegate?!! I asked him if it was variable but he was quite adamant its a wastegate.

I believe that is the part that has been changed yes it controls the plunger on the side of the turbo and moves it in or out about 12mm.

we hthought it was this as the plunger was previously moving slowly due to the soot build up on the filter of it due to the manifold leak.....

So I'm guessing a "55 plate" car means it was first registered sometime between April and September 2005? This make is an M57TUD30 engine, which was fitted with a Garrett GT2260V turbo charge, which is definitely a VGT - no waste gate. I don't think BMW have used a waste gate on a diesel in a long time...

https://turbocentras.com/shop/5815-l...-753392-18.jpg

The vacuum actuator does move a rod (a plunger) but it opens and closes a set of direction vanes inside the the turbine, called a nozzle ring. This nozzle ring CAN become fouled with carbon - although this is not likely to be the result of a cracked manifold.

https://turbocentras.com/shop/5381/g...ng-gt22-90.jpg

I've very recently replaced my cracked manifold (on my 2005 M57TUD30) and I checked the vacuum actuator etc prior to putting it all back together.

http://i66.tinypic.com/5cx3ia.jpg

See this post....

https://xoutpost.com/1142332-post39.html

There's a few items in the vacuum system that need checking and the pressure modulator is the first thing I'd check, if you haven't yet done so. I've dealt with similar symptoms on a turbo diesel engines in the past and this pressure modulator was the fault. Not saying your is, but you'll want to verify it is working correctly.

You'll also need to confirm you have no boost leaks in the intercooler pipework etc.

Diagnosing issues like this can be very tricky - I hope your mechanic is very experienced with BMW turbo diesels... ;)

Clunk84 11-26-2018 04:09 AM

hi thanks I'll check that post out now,
I was concerned that a flake of metal was missing from the inner skin of the manifold at the point at which it would meet the turbo probably about 10x13mm but he said he had checked the turbo for damage and it wasn't and it all span freely and all was ok ... I'm now thinking is this piece jammed in the nozzle ring somehow... it is however boosting hard when all is well and at them moment I only feel the loss of power top end and the howl when cold and at idle when the vacuum hit -18

also vacuum hoses have been replaced and apparently intercooler and exhaust checked for blockages/leaks.

my gut feeling is that it the turbo and I'm really fed up as I only changed this about 3yrs ago / probably 28,000 miles! and also if it is it could have been replaced easily and with the same labour cost as when the cam cover was off and the manifold out!

wpoll 11-26-2018 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clunk84 (Post 1147225)
hi thanks I'll check that post out now,
I was concerned that a flake of metal was missing from the inner skin of the manifold at the point at which it would meet the turbo probably about 10x13mm but he said he had checked the turbo for damage and it wasn't and it all span freely and all was ok ... I'm now thinking is this piece jammed in the nozzle ring somehow... it is however boosting hard when all is well and at them moment I only feel the loss of power top end and the howl when cold and at idle when the vacuum hit -18

also vacuum hoses have been replaced and apparently intercooler and exhaust checked for blockages/leaks.

my gut feeling is that it the turbo and I'm really fed up as I only changed this about 3yrs ago / probably 28,000 miles! and also if it is it could have been replaced easily and with the same labour cost as when the cam cover was off and the manifold out!

Pretty frustrating to have done all that and still have issues. :(

If there is a piece of manifold missing, then where is it? It sounds too big to have passed through the turbo... You might be right about it jamming the nozzle ring, although if the nozzle ring was jammed the actuator rod (plunger) wouldn't move.

That's the exact reason I changed my manifold as soon as the cracks started - they are known to fall apart if left too long. :confused:

In my vacuum test, it took about -15psi on the VGT actuator to move the actuator to it's full limit. My measurements weren't exact but it all works very well. I wouldn't think -18psi would be an issue. In fact too much vacuum in itself cant cause any issue, as the nozzle ring will just hit an end stop and not move any further.

What CAN cause issues is too much vacuum at the wrong time. And the amount of vacuum applied to the actuator is only controlled by the pressure modulator, hence why I think it needs to be checked out.

The vacuum supply is from the vacuum pump, via the main vacuum manifold, to the vacuum reservoir through the pressure (vacuum) modulator and then to the actuator.

The correct way to check this system is to check the DDE for errors related to charge pressure control deviation. Any errors noted should be followed as per the diagnostic steps provided by BMW.

There's some ore info. on turbo issues here...

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...ntrol/EIDTjVEl

and here...

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...ntrol/EIXiL8xM

HTH... ;)

Clunk84 11-26-2018 05:11 AM

at the moment I have rigged a vac gauge inside the car and if I defeat the check valve installed (block it) the vac increases to -18 to -20 and at that point you can hear the turbo start to howl then when you drive the car is very sluggish upon accelerating and the vac bounces/stutters a little and the car matches said bounce until it manages to get to about -14 and then it takes off and pulls hard with the vac dropping off to near zero at high rpm. its like the solenoid valve cant release when the vac gets that low... it would be interesting to find out what the actual vac pressure should be but I can't find the value noted anywhere.

where about physically is the pressure modulator you mention? I'm sorry for all the questions but with short daylight hours and work its a real pain to get anything done at the minute.

thank you for all your help :thumbup:

wpoll 11-26-2018 05:32 AM

I've been calling it a "pressure modulater" but the correct name is pressure converter.

The pressure converter (as shown in the image in my first post above) is about 3" in front of the turbo, and sits in the vacuum line between the vacuum reservoir and the turbo variable geometry actuator.

Here's the spec. for the turbo vacuum...

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...tuator/XcGISOp

Clunk84 11-26-2018 05:45 AM

I believe that part has been replaced with a brand new genuine one .. does it have a gauze filter to allow atmosphere in when actuating as if so this is definitely the part what was replaced..

the pressures stated in your link i assume are the output side of this modulator and what the "plunger" requires to activate... as far as im aware there hasn't been any fault codes showing at all since day one ..:dunno:

wpoll 11-26-2018 05:56 AM

Yes, the pressure converter has an atmospheric filter. Sounds like you have eliminated it, although it is controlled electrically and could still be your issue. It seems likely a fault would be recorded in this case though...

Here's the vacuum line routing info.

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...-valve/Bty4zsn

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...-valve/AXdsYr2

And yes,, the pressures stated are post the pressure modulator and should result in the movements specified.

BTW, the new actuator (plunger mechanism) might need to be calibrated.. It has an threaded adjustment on the shaft...

Clunk84 11-26-2018 07:02 AM

thanks so much for those diagrams are really helpful I've struggled to find anything like that that makes sense so that clarified things a fair bit!

I went out in my break to have a look but it quite hard to see without taking the washer bottle and other plastics off and I only had 15 mins

I closed off the check valve so made it as standard and the vac dropped to -20 and then when revving the engine at a couple of times it made it vibrate to what seemed like near stalling so I don't know whether or not that's too much or too little air and I couldn't rev it and see what the actuator was doing ... id like to think this would throw up the engine management but it doesn't seem too...

the actual plunger itself hasn't been changed just the valve controlling the vacuum..

I also found a video on youtube with a chap testing the vacuum control valve and he refers to there being 25 inches on the primary of it so if anything mines lower than that!

Clunk84 01-29-2019 06:08 AM

Hi guys thought Iíd post to say I finally got it sorted ! The first garage sent me down the wrong path blaming vacuum etc. Took it to an old school garage said what had happened and that I suspected possible turbo damage to to missing parts of the manifold so after removing the turbo which the first garage was reluctant to do and separating the turbo hot side we discovered the missing bit of metal in the sidewall of the turbo wedged in with the vg veins! And also hot side impellor fins all bent and damaged... so new turbo and all bodges removed and back to normal at last! I just canít understand how the first garage didnít see the damaged impellor when changing the manifold??!!

wpoll 01-30-2019 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clunk84 (Post 1153573)
Hi guys thought Iíd post to say I finally got it sorted ! The first garage sent me down the wrong path blaming vacuum etc. Took it to an old school garage said what had happened and that I suspected possible turbo damage to to missing parts of the manifold so after removing the turbo which the first garage was reluctant to do and separating the turbo hot side we discovered the missing bit of metal in the sidewall of the turbo wedged in with the vg veins! And also hot side impellor fins all bent and damaged... so new turbo and all bodges removed and back to normal at last! I just canít understand how the first garage didnít see the damaged impellor when changing the manifold??!!

Great to hear you are sorted but sorry to hear it cost you another turbo! :rolleyes:

There's no easy way to see turbine damage like you describe when changing the exhaust manifold - that task may not involve opening up the "hot side" of the turbo, so it would be easy to miss. I suppose it depends on how the manifold was changed - either from over the top (after removing the valve cover) or from underneath (after removing the the turbo). Of course, I did neither and went in from the side! :D

But there's two important take-aways from all this: -

1. When installing the first turbo (28,000 miles ago?) the garage should likely have replaced the exhaust manifold at the same time. It would have had small cracks at that point - they go bad slowly. The extra cost would have been minimal (about 60 quid for a good cast manifold). I would NEVER bolt a new turbo to an old stainless manifold on an M57TU.....

2. When the garage discovered the old manifold was missing a piece of material, they should have searched deeper for it - it was clearly too big to pass through the turbo so it had to be in there.

Re. point 2. though - I guess the damage was already done (to the "new" turbo) so the only saving there would have been time and labour costs. But still... :rolleyes:

At least you're rolling again. :thumbup:

Clunk84 04-23-2019 08:13 AM

yeah cheers wayne.

thats exactly what i said to them to be honest and i did ask them when they changed the turbo the first time round if it was worth changing out the manifold and he said no it was all good.. hindsight hey if only id done a little more research before hand !! same old story!!


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