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-   -   Need input from Timesert gurus (https://xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-forums/x5-e53-forum/112562-need-input-timesert-gurus.html)

ahlem 11-03-2020 09:02 PM

The Timesert people want to sell me a kit with the guide bushing plate and 14 big serts for $477. They said the torqueing of the head would be uneven if I didn't change all 14. It's a PITA to remove the two that only partially fell out so I don't relish the idea of doing 14. Anyone use Big Serts with the kit without the plate? Any part numbers on the kit? I was under the assumption that torque is torque and not subject to whatever you are torqueing against, kind of like horsepower.

Effduration 11-03-2020 09:26 PM

I said I would rent you my big-sert kit.

The kit I have is kit# is time-sert 1090BS

I havenít installed big-sertís without the jig in kit 1090BS. But the engineering data shows what drill would be needed. I think it shows the size of the tap as well.

I would feel comfortable big-serting only the holes that pulled.
Although I would would want to be sure which pulled and which didnít.

ahlem 11-04-2020 02:44 PM

My thought is to use a 1/2" steel plate and shorter bolts and test torque all the locations to 50-60 ft-lbs (or the spec) and be sure nothing else is going to cut loose when I reinstall the head. I'm thinking I will run a tap into the two partially failed timeserts and then get a larger washer and use a 1/2" drive impact socket and thread a bolt into the partially failed timesert and pull it the rest of the way out by tightening down the bolt. Then I will decide about acquiring or renting the Big Sert tools to remedy things. Does this sound like a reasonable plan?

Effduration 11-04-2020 03:06 PM

I like testing the remaining inserts to 50-60 lbs

But I don't like tapping and pulling the partially failed inserts. Pulling them seems like it might damage the hole unnecessarily- even though a big-sert would likely fix it.. Time-sert says they can be removed with a spiral point screw extractor (unthreading the insert) or they can be drilled out.

Any idea how this happened to begin with? These time-serts were not pulled out during an overheat..

oldskewel 11-04-2020 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahlem (Post 1194239)
My thought is to use a 1/2" steel plate and shorter bolts and test torque all the locations to 50-60 ft-lbs (or the spec) and be sure nothing else is going to cut loose when I reinstall the head...

Really sorry to hear of the problems you're having with this. I feared this same thing on my M54 and consider myself at least a little lucky to not have had any problems. Decision making here must be tough, so I won't try to give advice on the major decisions here, but on a specific issue ...

Regarding "the spec," I just want to point out that the 40 Nm + 90* + 90* (this is the spec) will be accurate only if a new (not yet stretched) head bolt is used, and also the height of the bolt head above the cylinder head is the same as when the head is installed. So you'd need to put a spacer in there matching the depth of the head, if you want to try to do it to that spec. Probably not worth trying to do all that carefully.

Better to just torque to a set torque value, without the additional angle. Yours + @Effduration's 50-60 ft-lb suggestions sound good to me.

From my notes, the Bentley, page 020-4 says an M10 class 10.9 bolt has a torque spec of 66 Nm (49 ft-lb). So that's the torque before any yield occurs. When the actual head bolts are torqued, they do yield, so it will be higher than that. So that's why I think 50-60 ft-lb sounds good. It should definitely hold at 50 ft-lb, and you might worry a little as you turn it up to 60.

Definitely worth testing every existing insert like that before proceeding. You want any problems to appear now vs. later.

I agree with @Effduration's other comments.

And BTW, what you're going through here is exactly why I would have gone straight to the BS inserts if I had known about them, gladly renting @Effduration's kit with the jig, etc. Of course checking on proximity to cooling channels, but I figure TimeSert and others would have blown through those if it were a likely problem here ... vs. the known problem of weakened block material, and the imperfect precision in TS installation that will happen when you do it with the block in the car, without a jig (how I did it), vs. out of the car and on a milling machine. I don't know how close I was to having the problems you are, but I might have been very lucky and right on the edge.

On the sizes, the head bolts are M10, the TS inserts are M12, and the BS inserts are M14, all with 1.5 mm pitch. From that youtube proof testing video I posted a few posts up, the BS inserts were far stronger than anything else. "The ringer" as the video guy called them.

ahlem 11-04-2020 06:03 PM

The M54 ran a total of 5 minutes and peed coolant. I used Victor Reinz head bolts on the first reinstall and they were all over the place in the torque measurements. A couple never got to the first torque setting. I didn’t start the car but replaced the head bolts with stock new. I was concerned about 4 and these are the ones that failed. I suspect the engine overheated at some point way back when since the head gasket was cracked between cylinders in two locations when I first disassembled it.

ahlem 11-23-2020 08:25 PM

Update... I spoke to a pretty knowlegable person at the Big Sert dealer, Mechanics Tools and Bits. He suggested it was a good idea to replace all 14 inserts which is my plan. He agreed that the test torquing idea was a good one. I plan on using a steel plate plus a spacer plus a washer or two and bolt through and torque to the first torque specification before the +90 +90. I could probably use an impact socket as the spacer or a drill bushing or other fairly precision part as the spacer. I may try using one of the original BMW had bolts for the torque test since I have a good selection of them available. He also said I should be able to drill out the regular Timeserts with a correct sized drill bit. I would be curious to know if anyone here has drilled out a regular timesert and what you used. I did see a Youtube video of someone who chuckd a round tapered file in a cordless drill and left handed it for a while and the timesert came out. I'd rather not do the file method but may use the drill jig from my 1090BS kit I bought. Thoughts?

Effduration 11-23-2020 10:23 PM

You want to install 14 Big-serts ? Okay...Remove the remaining, regular timeserts and then drill, tap, insert the 14 big-serts.

I don't know why or what your torque test is. I thought that was supposed to determine which of the remaining time-serts can handle the torque..If you are replacing all 14, who cares?

I don't like using the time-sert or big-sert drill to remove old time-serts. That is a special tapered, notched drill bit - more than $125 if you want to replace it, So I would save it for drilling the aluminum block for the big-serts. Do not use it to drill out steel inserts.

This is what I would do to remove the time-serts

1. screw extractor
2. reverse threaded drill bil
3. regular drill bit* - but not the big-sert drill bit

* The major diameter of a regular M10 x 1.5 timesert is 0.474. So, I suggest you get a 15/32 drill bit (0.469), and then finish the hole with the Big-sert drill bit which is 31/64 or = 4.84

ahlem 12-23-2020 01:25 PM

3 Attachment(s)
An update.
I had to pause to take care of a home repair project before winter kicked in.
Of course now I get to do this in the cold.
The Bigserts drill will require a larger chuck than the regular Timesert. On the exhaust side rearmost two head bolts there is interference between the inner fender parts and a straight shot at the head bolt geometry. I am using the Bigsert kit with the plate since I plan on doing this project a couple times on M54 motors. I wouldn't suggest trying this without the plate. I currently have 8 of the 14 holes Bigserted. Three very good tools to make this fairly reasonable are included in the photos.
First, I made a steel insert bushing that fits inside the Bigsert alignment bushing with an 11mm ID to guide a carbide tipped drill bit to drill out the regular Timeserts. I am getting good alignment and it's doing a good job of drilling out the regular Timeserts.
Second, I made a chuck adapter to attach a 1/2" chuck to my 3/8" air ratchet to use as a 90 degree close quarters drill set up to drill the back two holes on the exhaust side. Used chuck, Home Depot bolt that got the head cut off that matched the threads on the chuck and a 3/8" drive socket of the same diameter as the threaded stud I made by cutting the head off welded into an assembly.
Third, a ratcheting tap handle from Harbor Freight. Indispensible.
I hope to get a couple more holes replaced this evening before we get a white Christmas.

ahlem 12-27-2020 01:13 PM

Another update...
I installed 14 new Bigserts.
I placed a spacer of the correct dimension on a fender washer and test torqued all 14 to 40 foot pounds. I used a used head bolt for that.
Is 40 a good number or should I repeat with the first specified torque setting? I'd have to double check that in my Bentley Manual but I believe its 49 foot-pounds.


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