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-   -   I CAN FINALLY SEE! Installed Aspherical Mirrors (https://xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-forums/x5-e53-forum/90719-i-can-finally-see-installed-aspherical-mirrors.html)

Qsilver7 12-29-2012 11:16 PM

I CAN FINALLY SEE! Installed Aspherical Mirrors
 
Well, my auto dim/heated/wide angle (aspherical) side view mirrors arrived from Riga, Latvia (thank you eBay & Volodja Borovik) the day after Christmas...and I finally got a chance to install them. It was really easy to remove the mirror glass once you find the sweet spot that allows you room to lift upward on the glass.

http://www.bimmerboard.com/members/q...structions.jpg

I wanted to get some good side by side comparison shots...but it snowed over night and recovered the parking lots & drives that I was using to give some visual markers & perspective of the increased visibility the aspherical mirrors give.

The original "convex" mirror on the passenger side, has the same reflective ratio as the aspherical mirrors...until you get to the line on either the far left (driver's side) or the far right (passenger's side) of the glass which "bends" the reflection out a little further. Plus there's no warning to tell you that the "objects in mirror are closer than they appear". :rolleyes:

Since they are so expensive...one could really just replace the one mirror for the driver's side...it is what really made me cough up the dough for the wide angle mirror...the increased visibility is awesome. I can now see straight down both sides and across 3-5 lanes of traffic easily. I took the pics sitting straight in the driver's seat with the camera in front of my face as to emulate looking into the mirrors from the driver's point of view.
Side mirror site line:


(driver's side - can see from the front door handles back)

(passenger's side - can see from the front door handles back)
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/697...almirrorps.jpg



(original driver's side mirror has 1:1 reflective ratio)

https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/24...roroedscms.jpg

(wide angle driver's side - the black line in the snow (the curb) is actually straight all the way across...it just looks curved due to the "bent" mirror section on the right side of the dotted line in the glass)

https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/24...rorwadscms.jpg


(original passenger side "convex" mirror)

https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/24...roroepscms.jpg

(wide angle mirror passenger's side - it snowed overnight & covered the drive...but you can use the telephone poles/street lights/trees for comparative perspective)

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/797...rorpswacms.jpg





Dark5yde 12-30-2012 02:23 AM

Wow that is one hell of an improvement.

SlickGT1 12-30-2012 03:17 AM

Totally awsome. I can't wait to get a set.

TerminatorX5 12-30-2012 03:19 AM

I loved them on my E34 and E39... the only that stopped me from getting them for the 4.6 was the price - $354 just for the left one...

how much was yours? I dealt with Balstic sellers before, it is possible to get very rare items for the BMW from them...

Ozmoziz 12-30-2012 08:34 AM

Hello :) that looks nice, from were did you by them ?
Happy New Year to you :)

upallnight 12-30-2012 10:47 AM

Wow now you can cut over two lanes of traffic instead of just one and can see that jerk driving in your blind spot.

I brought a mirror from this eBay seller before for my Audi. I notice that he has mirrors for the E53. The mirror quality is not OEM, but it just a mirror and the heating element worked on my Audi and that was the reason for replacing the mirror.

00 06 BMW x5 Series E53 Heated Left Driver Door Mirror Glass | eBay

epdarks 12-30-2012 11:35 AM

Would love to do the mod but isn't the cost something like $400 per side?

Qsilver7 12-30-2012 12:23 PM

Hopefully I answer everyone's questions. :)

These were used oe BMW mirrors purchased off eBay from a seller in Riga, Latvia (bmwelshoplv - Volodja Borovik ). I paid a handsome some of $268 (incl S&H & after the monetary conversion from GBP $168) for the L/R set...whereas the cheapest I could find for new was approx $359 for a single mirror.

Upallnight, yes...now I can cut thru traffic (being the stereotypical BMW "prick") with impunity...actually "seeing" all the people I'm cutting off...on purpose. :nanana:

IMHO: if anyone is really considering or interested in this mod but the cost of the mirrors is hard to swallow...don't feel bad if you just do the driver's side only. The original "convex" passenger side isn't that much different than the "aspherical" mirror...in fact, the reflective ratio appears to be the same with only the smaller "bent" portion at the far left or far right of the aspherical mirrors being the major difference between the two. Swapping the passenger convex mirror out could easily be done at a later time...or not even swapped at all if a good deal can't be found.

And if your X5 doesn't have the Electrochromatic (EC -auto dim) side view mirrors...then the cost of just the heated/wide angle mirrors is much less. BMW exacts a king's ransom for the auto dim feature. :rolleyes:

Lexicon740iL 12-30-2012 12:42 PM

Nice mod Q ! It looks like quite an improvement in line of sight. And great price on OE also. I seem to remember the aspherical lenses coming to my attention when you did a retrofit on your e38 or touring in the past.

Def. Added to my list of future projects :)

Thanks for the informative post and awesome pics man!

Qsilver7 12-30-2012 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lexicon740iL (Post 914282)
... I seem to remember the aspherical lenses coming to my attention when you did a retrofit on your e38 or touring in the past. ...

Thanks...and yes, having become accustomed to aspherical mirrors on the e38 & e39...I was skittish about changing lanes in the e53...I always felt like I might be getting to side-swipe somebody.

Imy 12-30-2012 03:14 PM

Have a look at uk eBay, i bought a pair for £25 or $42. Really good quality as well. Not sure how you guys live without these mirrors, the convex come fitted as standard in uk

upallnight 12-30-2012 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imy (Post 914314)
Have a look at uk eBay, i bought a pair for £25 or $42. Really good quality as well. Not sure how you guys live without these mirrors, the convex come fitted as standard in uk

But will the mirrors be different since they drive on the wrong side of the road?

Imy 12-30-2012 09:07 PM

No mirrors are exactly the same.

Qsilver7 12-30-2012 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by upallnight (Post 914317)
But will the mirrors be different since they drive on the wrong side of the road?

:bustingup:bustingup:bustingup Not sure if you were serious or joking...but thanks for the laugh just trying to figure out which. :) I was even going to jump in and ask if the interior rear view mirror was different as well...because it needs to tilt to the right since ours tilt to the left. :D

The passenger side convex mirror (#3) with "objects in mirror are closer than they appear" written on it isn't used in most markets outside North America...especially if they are RHD. They use (#2) convex mirror on the passenger side or the wide angle/aspherical (#1) mirror. So as Imy mentions, and as you can see in the pics I posted...it doesn't matter as long as you install a left & right mirror glass on the appropriate side in either plain, convex, or aspherical style.


(the different mirror glass that are available they all have either left or right part nbr)

#3 convex & #4 plain is used in the USA
#1 wide angle & #2 convex & #4 plain is used in Europe


http://www.realoem.com/bmw/diagrams/p/i/33.png

JAXX5 12-30-2012 10:11 PM

that was one heck of a mod...

Ricky Bobby 12-31-2012 12:28 PM

I bought my mirrors from the seller from Latvia a year ago for either 60 or 100 dollars, I forget.

Mine were exactly the same as the OP but they are blue tinted and they are not the auto dim mirrors. I love the aspherical mirrors, they help me see so much better. I only bought them because I bought the car with a cracked right side glass so buying the aspherical pair on ebay was cheaper than OE glass from the dealer

Cisc0 08-02-2013 12:46 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Sorry to revive this old thread but I am switching back to OE mirrors and just purchased a set of euro's but don't remember which side is + and which is - for the heated connections. Looking down at the mirrors can someone tell me which side is which:

TerminatorX5 08-02-2013 12:50 PM

i am just speculating but i think in this particular application the polarity does not matter - the connection is NOT keyed as most of the other connections (like the electrochromatic connection is done via a connector).

However, best bet is to consult the WDS...

can't see on the picture - do those little metal "knobs" have numbers marked next to them? like 1 and 2?

Cisc0 08-02-2013 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TerminatorX5 (Post 949669)
i am just speculating but i think in this particular application the polarity does not matter - the connection is NOT keyed as most of the other connections (like the electrochromatic connection is done via a connector).

However, best bet is to consult the WDS...

can't see on the picture - do those little metal "knobs" have numbers marked next to them? like 1 and 2?

No numbers markings that I am aware off. At work right now and do not have mirror in front of me.

romeokc10 08-02-2013 01:09 PM

So where can you get auto dimming convex side mirrors?

TerminatorX5 08-02-2013 01:36 PM

i got mine on ebay

Cisc0 08-02-2013 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by romeokc10 (Post 949674)
So where can you get auto dimming convex side mirrors?

Just got mine from ebay.uk Paid $100gbp shipped for both.

Ricky Bobby 08-02-2013 01:51 PM

FYI for those that have mirrors that are all scarred and scorn from the heater being stuck on it (mine were when I bought the X), I replaced the stock mirrors with the blue version, non auto-dim mirrors for under 100 bucks from Latvia, they were aspherical, blue tinted, and I've been very happy with them since.

Great alternative to OE!

Qsilver7 08-02-2013 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cisc0 (Post 949667)
...I am switching back to OE mirrors and just purchased a set of euro's but don't remember which side is + and which is - for the heated connections. Looking down at the mirrors can someone tell me which side is which:

Ditto what TX5 said...the 2 connections for the heated mirrors doesn't matter...and if I'm not mistaken...both wires are black, aren't they? From memory I can't remember...and in my pic...both wires look black:

http://imageshack.com/scaled/large/8...orwiringre.jpg

Cisc0 08-02-2013 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qsilver7 (Post 949710)
Ditto what TX5 said...the 2 connections for the heated mirrors doesn't matter...and if I'm not mistaken...both wires are black, aren't they? From memory I can't remember...and in my pic...both wires look black:

http://imageshack.com/scaled/large/8...orwiringre.jpg


Thanks for the help guys. Yes both wires are black on mine also (big dummy I am, that was a given from the start)

Qsilver7 08-02-2013 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by romeokc10 (Post 949674)
So where can you get auto dimming convex side mirrors?

I got mine from ebay as well...if you go back to post #8 (on the 1st page)...I gave the name of the eBay vendor (from Riga, Latvia). They have an eBay store (at least they used to)...and frequently put up e53 parts for sale.

Latvia is one of the small countries off the Baltic Sea...located south of Estonia and north of Lithuania and west of Russia...it's the country highlighted in burnt orange in the map below:

http://baltic-ireland.ie/datnes/2008/06/map_lv.jpg

Cisc0 08-02-2013 03:21 PM

Here is the seller's store where I got mine. Send him a message and they will send you a paypal invoice for £50 for one or £100 for two. Price includes shipping to the US:

JDM Honda CRX DEL SOL items in TAGA JDM honda car parts store on eBay!

PropellerHead 08-02-2013 05:11 PM

I have been itching to scratch my mod bug for a few months now. Picked up left and right heated + auto dimming. :thumbup: Says it won't be here until early Sept! :yikes: Does anyone know if the rt hand (US) mirror glass needs a connection for auto dip? Don't really care if it doesn't work. It rarely returns to the correct position anyway.

ROFL- Got my confirmation of PayPal Payment to "[email protected]"

Yyyyikes! :yikes:

PropellerHead 08-14-2013 08:53 PM

Woohooo! Received and installed today! Only took ~12 days! They look GREAT! Auto-dimming works and heated- well... we'll have to see. Thanks for the leads on the Ebay mirrors from Latvia! :thumbup:

Qsilver7 08-15-2013 12:25 AM

Great...glad everything went well. Now...where's the pics? :)

Sent from my SGH-T989 using BimmerApp mobile app

PropellerHead 08-15-2013 02:38 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Qsilver7 (Post 951786)
Great...glad everything went well. Now...where's the pics? :)

:rofl: I had so many local nerds that wanted pics, I went out and snapped some with my phone. Not very clean, but they're on!

Qsilver7 08-15-2013 04:48 PM

:thumbup:

Clockwork 12-03-2015 09:33 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Propellerhead, I assume those are the wide angle aspherical, adn not the convex correct?
Still heating and auto-dimming fine?

attached is a pic from Realoem showing part numbers for the Heated, Auto-Dimming Wide Angle Aspherical glasses for a Left Hand drive vehicle

Ricky Bobby 12-04-2015 10:39 AM

Mike I've had the same as Prop for almost 4 years (from Latvia, blue tinted heated and non-auto dim) and they have been working flawless. They are aspherical. I think I paid $65 shipped on Ebay back in the day.

SlickGT1 12-04-2015 11:38 AM

too bad the price jump for them with auto dimming is so nuts. I really want a set too, but don't want to lose a feature.

Clockwork 12-04-2015 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlickGT1 (Post 1060531)
too bad the price jump for them with auto dimming is so nuts. I really want a set too, but don't want to lose a feature.

thats my problem, I need the Auto-Dimming feature so the cost goes way up.
I DID however find a used set for a $165 CAD (approx $4.50 USD these days)

PropellerHead 12-04-2015 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clockwork (Post 1060483)
Propellerhead, I assume those are the wide angle aspherical, adn not the convex correct?
Still heating and auto-dimming fine?

I think so. I am not sure ab how to tell the difference. But yes. They are still auto-dimming and they heated through last winter without trouble.

I really do like them. I noticed them again today thinking how much I like them. Really something I use every time I drive. :thumbup:

In a related note, I asked my shop to do the auto-dip fix from a thread here. They were so impressed with the process that they didn't charge me for it. They're going to offer it as a service to others who don't want to have to pay for a new mirror assembly. Now I'm all ready for the annual South Florida Christmas trip! I leave next week! :wavey:

Qsilver7 12-04-2015 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clockwork (Post 1060483)
Propellerhead, I assume those are the wide angle aspherical, adn not the convex correct?
Still heating and auto-dimming fine?

The convex mirrors (2, 3, & 5 in the diagram) do not have the "line" going thru the glass where the mirror's reflection "bends" greater than the other part of the mirror. We can clearly see the lines in the wide angle aspherical mirrors. :)

BTW...sorry for the missing pics in post #1...but apparently I've suffered image loss by imageshack.com. They changed things on their website (pay to store pics instead of free) and they apparently dumped some of the pics and changed all of the URL addresses. :rolleyes: I guess I got what I paid for...similar to the Cardomain.com fiasco..but not quite as bad. I replaced the ones I could find...but I got rid of a lot of them after uploading them to a site that promised to keep them. :(

kevinkay 12-06-2015 03:04 PM

I Just changed out both sides to what I think is the "aspherical", they have the line/bend and both left and right are skewed so that "objects appear further then they are".
If I got the same ones you are all talking about, YES I feel you gain more visibility when driving.

BUT, was just in a circumstance where I was stopped and had to pull into highway traffic. I just didnt feel confidant enough gauging it with the mirror (if i had enough time/space to jump in). Had to open the window and put my head out. I only had the mirrors on a couple of days, Do they take some getting used to?
thanks!

Clockwork 12-06-2015 03:10 PM

mirrors are a great second check to any situation where you could/should turn your head for a direct line of sight firstly.
I just ordered a gold tinted set from Latvia myself. Heated, Auto Dimmed Asphericals.

Qsilver7 12-07-2015 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevinkay (Post 1060727)
I Just changed out both sides to what I think is the "aspherical", they have the line/bend and both left and right are skewed so that "objects appear further then they are".
If I got the same ones you are all talking about, YES I feel you gain more visibility when driving.

BUT, was just in a circumstance where I was stopped and had to pull into highway traffic. I just didnt feel confidant enough gauging it with the mirror (if i had enough time/space to jump in). Had to open the window and put my head out. I only had the mirrors on a couple of days, Do they take some getting used to?
thanks!

Yes the aspherical mirrors can take some getting used to since their reflective ratio is different than what you had before. How long varies from individual to individual and their personal propensity to adapt. :)

Remember to use your rear view mirror, too...since its reflective ratio is 1:1...you can usually tell how far things are behind you with no problem. Use it to learn how far things are from you in the wide angle mirrors...and you can always turn your head as well before changing lanes until you get accustomed to them.

Clockwork 12-19-2015 05:11 PM

k I just installed mine and I too LOVE them. GREAT viewing angle.
for abouta year I have had the stick on round fisheye mirror on top outside corner of mirror surface and they work great but are a bit ugly, so I stepped up to these gold color OE (bought used from Latvia) mirrors and they are just as good as having those stick on fisheye mirrors but these OE mirrors look a LOT better... especially in gold color on my kalahari beige x :)

BUT I do have to ask a question...
Has anyone ever measured the resistance values of the heating elements from a new pair/
I have three pairs of heated auto-dimming mirrors and all mirrors had same values... LH side vary between 10-16 Ohm, and RH side vary between 48-60 Ohms.

I would have figured both mirrors should have had the same resistance values...

Reason I ask, is I rarely have to worry about mirrors fogging up, but after installing these today I did, by chance, go into a very hot/humid parking garage despite it being -12° C outside.
The LH side mirror (remember 10-16 Ohms) fogged up fora quick 10 seconds then went perfect, yet the RH side mirror fogged up and took many many minutes to finally defog.

I am thinking either the wiring in the mirror harness has cracked (after so many years of the mirror dropping down when put into reverse, or from mirror being power folded in...) OR the heating elements on the RH side go bad faster (hence why all three RH mirrors had 3-4 times as high of a resistance as the LH sides).

I'd like to see others thoughts

Clockwork 12-21-2015 11:45 AM

the more I drive around with my gold mirrors, I have come to realize I will never own a car again without gold color mirrors. Such a nice reduction in glare, over top of the auto-dim feature...

bcredliner 01-31-2016 07:53 PM

Have a couple of questions

Have passenger side tilt mirror glass removed and having difficulty getting it back in place. Anyone know where I can find instructions?

Can't seem to find a blue aspherical glass replacement for the passenger side tilt mirror on Ebay. Any idea? The back side of the passenger tilt mirror is entirely different from the driver's side.

admranger 01-31-2016 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcredliner (Post 1067680)
Have a couple of questions

Have passenger side tilt mirror glass removed and having difficulty getting it back in place. Anyone know where I can find instructions?

Can't seem to find a blue aspherical glass replacement for the passenger side tilt mirror on Ebay. Any idea? The back side of the passenger tilt mirror is entirely different from the driver's side.

I had to pry mine down with a trim removing tool (or pad the hell out of a big screw driver). It'll snap in there assuming you have the clips all lined up.

kevinkay 01-31-2016 08:16 PM

I bought mine on Ebay,
Pair Door Wing Mirror Glass Heated Anti Blind Left Right for BMW x5 E53 99 06 | eBay

listing shows photos of the back, mine were identical left and right except different shapes. You have to line up clips and push down and in - you almost hear a "click".

anyone removing the passenger side that has "auto dip" I HIGHLY recommend reading this post -
http://www.xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-foru...d-writeup.html

Qsilver7 01-31-2016 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcredliner (Post 1067680)
Have a couple of questions

Have passenger side tilt mirror glass removed and having difficulty getting it back in place. Anyone know where I can find instructions?

Can't seem to find a blue aspherical glass replacement for the passenger side tilt mirror on Ebay. Any idea? The back side of the passenger tilt mirror is entirely different from the driver's side.

Hmmm...both my mirrors had the same mounting design:


bcredliner 01-31-2016 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qsilver7 (Post 1067703)
Hmmm...both my mirrors had the same mounting design:


Driver's side is as pictured. Passenger side has 4 pronged in a plus pattern with a center ball and socket. Not anything like the driver's side.

kevinkay 02-01-2016 03:58 AM

You should look at the "mirror dip" write up, It sounds like you have separated the motor body.
http://www.xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-foru...d-writeup.html

Qsilver7 02-01-2016 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcredliner (Post 1067706)
Driver's side is as pictured. Passenger side has 4 pronged in a plus pattern with a center ball and socket. Not anything like the driver's side.

Ditto what KevenKay wrote above...it sounds like you removed the entire mounting parts that mate (which is visible in the pic below and in the instructions)

Check your passenger mirror to see if you have the circular part you can see mounted to the motor assembly in the mirror housing in the pic below. As Kevin wrote...if you remove the mounting part that's attached to the mirror housing in the pic below...you will see how that piece is secured to the motor...which looks like what you describe (4 prong mount in a cross pattern):


tmv 02-01-2016 11:58 AM

Replace the mirrors recently. They are mounted the same way, both sides.

bcredliner 02-01-2016 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevinkay (Post 1067715)
You should look at the "mirror dip" write up, It sounds like you have separated the motor body.
http://www.xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-foru...d-writeup.html

Oops, that's what I did, thanks! and also Qsilver7!

Clockwork 02-01-2016 03:24 PM

BC, while you have that extra piece attached to your mirror, I'd recommend you clean up the metal terminals for the auto-dip feature on the motor, as good maintenance. It's sooo easy to do now that you have the hardest part off by accident

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

bcredliner 02-01-2016 04:25 PM

Yes, thanks, I did that, wasn't bad but didn't look like new.

Clockwork 04-12-2020 03:42 AM

Hi all.
So my x5 is due for.new mirrors again. I have aspherical, heated, electrochromatic (auto-dim) with auto-dip (not sure why that feature matters (s430A option code) and upon buying from eBay again from a reputable seller, they Re asking at least $200 CAD and most will not check k the resistance of the heater element on the right.mirror (which always happens to be the mirror which stops heating) so buying used is very risky. So I was thinking if I was to skip the Auto-dim (electrochromatic) feature And just get the blue lenses, is that a decent trade off? Have others done it with minimal difference to usage yet saved so much to get heated aspherical mirrors?

crystalworks 04-12-2020 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clockwork (Post 1181274)
So my x5 is due for.new mirrors again. I have aspherical, heated, electrochromatic (auto-dim) with auto-dip (not sure why that feature matters (s430A option code) and upon buying from eBay again from a reputable seller, they Re asking at least $200 CAD and most will not check k the resistance of the heater element on the right.mirror (which always happens to be the mirror which stops heating) so buying used is very risky.

If your buyer protections on eBay are the same in Canada as in the US buy them anyway. Test them yourself. If they aren't functional ask seller for a refund. If the seller refuses, file a case with eBay. You'll have your money back within a week. :thumbup:

Edit: the above only applies if it's listed as fully functional. If it's listed "as is" then skip it.

Clockwork 04-12-2020 12:24 PM

Ohhhhh, thanks Crystalworks!!!

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

Qsilver7 04-12-2020 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clockwork (Post 1181274)
...I have aspherical, heated, electrochromatic (auto-dim) with auto-dip (not sure why that feature matters (s430A option code) ...

Just an FYI...”auto-dip” is what BMW calls “auto-dim”. It’s something that goes back to the mid to late 1980s when the 5 & 7 series had optional motorized interior rear view mirrors that would auto-dip when the sensor in the mirror detected headlight glare. This was supposed to be a step up from having to manually flip or twist the knob below the interior rear view mirror to diminish headlight glare from the mirror. But these auto-dipping mirrors failed big time...and mostly under warranty. Fortunately, the technology for the “auto dimming” electro-chromatic mirrors were right on the heels of the auto-dipping mirrors...but BMW never changed the description and we still see it listed as “auto-dip”. Many people also confuse this to mean the auto-tilt feature of the passenger mirror when the gear shift lever goes into reverse...but they are not the same thing. :)

And just another FYI...BMW (in their selective wisdom) has in the last couple of years...removed the auto dimming mirror from the passenger side. If you get this option now...only the interior and driver’s side exterior rear view mirrors dim. :rolleyes:

Clockwork 04-13-2020 01:57 PM

Thanks QSilver7. I have noticed over the years you are quite knowledgeable about many items BMW related and 2ven the mirrors in specific as years ago when I got my gold electrochromatic mirrors I did a bit of research and yep you had a detailed thread started on them :)
So I'm on the fence on whether to buy a used set of them again or just skip the Auto-dip (again thank you for the history on that naming as I had no idea) and go with the blue mirror but I'm not finding them super cheaply either (tho they are new compared to used).

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