DIESEL: Is the 4k worth it? It depends.....
 

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A.)
Using hypothetical numbers
Diesel
Cost of fuel (e.g. $4.49/gal) = $0.13 per mile
miles per gallon (e.g. 33mpg)


Premium Gasoline
Cost of fuel (e.g. $3.99/gal) = $0.17 per mile
miles per gallon (e.g. 23mpg)

For 15,000 mile diesel fuel cost = $0.13 X 15,000 = $2,040

For 15,000 mile gasoline fuel cost = $0.17 X 15,000 = $2,608

Over a span of 3 years the resulting saving is around
$1,800 and if diesel prices come down, the savings will
only increase. In addition the diesel driver enjoys the
convenience of having to fill-up less often as well as the
environmental peace-of-mind in knowing that the diesel
emits around 20% less CO2 than a comparable gasoline



so basically no.. acording to the document...
F ITTT!!!! 4.8i gas all the way!!! :drunk: :drunk: :band: :drunk: :drunk:

I will trade my e70 X5 diesel for a 4.8 soon, even though diesel fuel cost 40% off premiun gas and it represents a big advantage in savings over the gasoline models.

I can't stand my diesel engine. It really stinks while parked with the engine running, but even worse than the smell, is the noise - the engine sounds like a gasoline engine that is just about ripe for scrap – I mean it's simply not pleasant/esthetical, Not for a BMW, Nothing can compare to the sweet exhaust notes coming from a 4.8.

Just an opinion.

Folks, the 3.0sd is not really supposed to be an alternative to the V8, rather the 3.0si I6, which is frankly, a bit soft on torque. Compared to the N52, the diesel consumes less fuel, gets similar if not better acceleration around town, and is especially designed to be quieter for the NA market. Honestly, I never saw the point of a 3.0si model.

right on.....! :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:, aldough it has lots of torque, (i test drove a armored x5 DIESEL3.0 level III, and it moved like if it had nothing)

3.0i GAS in the other hand, is so slow, its like a minivan imo.....:stickpoke

I agree 100%. I drove the X5 diesel during an event in the BMW factory and the 4.8 is a far superior than the diesel in almost all situations. The only reason to buy the diesel is fuel savings.

I agree 100%. I drove the X5 diesel during an event in the BMW factory and the 4.8 is a far superior than the diesel in almost all situations. The only reason to buy the diesel is fuel savings

That's why I'm going to purchase one if they ever let us know when the new I drive will be available. Diesel here is .46 per gallon more than BP premium.
The only thing I can think of, BMW had some of the old I drives left over and decided to put them in to get rid of them for cost savings.

Craig

:) :thumbup:

Depends which diesel you are talking about. 3.0sd (twin turbo diesel) beats the 4.8 hands down. Far superior real world performance performance due to extra 20% torque (at much lower and more useable revs), 40%+ better fuel economy, 40%+ longer touring range. What's more, you can drive the diesel as hard as you like and the economy only goes up by a small percentage, but drive the 4.8 hard and it guzzles fuel at an alarming rate. I've driven both back to back and for me there is no contest. The only place where the 4.8 is better is on the dragstrip and then it's only marginal. According to BMW's own figures, the 4.8 does the standing start kilometre in 26.6 seconds while the 3.0sd takes 27.3 seconds.

Here are the comparo pages.

Thanks, not a big savings, but I want the power of the diesel. The 4.8 uses too much fuel, or I would already have one. I didn't think the 30i had enough power. That's why I want the diesel. I also like having something different...

Craig

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What? Never heartd of al twin turbo diesel ,x5...

With gas so cheap now what's the point?

Do you have a 35d? My understanding is the new diesel is quieter with emission odor. I test drove a GL320 and it was almost as quiet as a gas engine and had zero odor at the tailpipe.

If you can afford the gas for the 4.8 and don't care about carbon footprints, I'm sure you will be happy with the 4.8.

Why did you choose diesel for your current X5?

Maybe in Australia. The 3.0sd I drove at the factory for US spec does not compare to the 4.8 in almost all driving situations. BMW gave us a score card and all people who participate in the test gave a far superior score to the 4.8. That is the reason the 4.8 is more expensive isn't it? If BMW believes people would prefer the 3.0sd vs. the 4.8 the 3.0sd would be priced higher than the 4.8i or you think BMW management do not know how to price their cars according to demand? Are they stupid? I do not think so. It is all about price & benefit. More benefit more expensive. ;)

yeah but that sounds like saying the 335i is better than the M3- higher revving and more gas, but more HP at the end of the day. Subjective, but I do see your point.

The 3.0sd has better torque, hence better real world performance than any 4.8 petrol. 428lb / ft and 286 bhp = the best X5 by far. Here in the UK and i think most of Europe the petrol is all but dead, diesel is the fuel of choice and it is not down to counting the pennies on fuel, it is due to the driving experience. In Europe almost 50% of all BMW's are now diesel, 20 years ago BMW in the UK did not sell any diesel's now it is the fuel of choice, common rail and sync turbos may have a lot to do with the aceptance of derv.

Besides all the torque/hp charts and the anecdotal "how it feels", the
US customer will probably vote with their wallet...gas/diesel price per
gallon, anticipated "keep car" time, lease or buy, towing or not, etc.;
all will play a big part in that gas vs. diesel decision, imo.

Meanwhile, other than 1st adopters and dieselHeads, I doubt there will
be a big line to actually buy the diesel in the next several months,
at least here in the Colonies...but, maybe the car buying public has more
$80Gs and/or big lease payment funds available than I have considered.
GL,mD

I would have to agree, here is Australia the popularity of diesel has grown enormously over the last few years for the reasons stated above. The benefits of the extra torque with better range per tank & gas milage is a huge plus for the SD, also the price difference here is Australia between the 3.0SD and the 4.8 is huge and the real world performance between both models negligible, so it's very hard to justify the purchase of a 4.8 in Australia.
I do agree though that the NA market is different and there are many other market factors that will not make it easy for the diesel over there. interesting to see though. :popcorn:

Perhaps the 'Blue Performance' emissions tech added to the US models has a negative effect on performance/drivability etc. This emissions tech is not on the Australian model 3.0sd (aka 35d). I've driven every engine variation of both the E53 and the E70 (that amounts to the four different diesels, the four petrol V8s and both 3.0-litre petrol sixes) and the twin-turbo diesel is the pick. BMW, like all manufacturers, price according to what they think the market will pay. Given that the 4.8 produces the most top-end power it is pitched (and equipped) as the premium model. The trouble is that better top-end power does not necessarily equate to better real-world performance. Don't get me wrong, I think the 4.8 is a great drive, it's just that the twin-turbo diesel as we get here in Australia is a better one. And, the more demanding the driving environment (mountain roads etc), the better it gets.

Fraser, I agree with you. The 35d is only .5 sec slower 0 -60 than the 4.8 and gets 40% better mileage. It is also considerably less expensive than the 4.8. We haven't seen the lease residuals yet, but if BMW follows Mercedes, the 35d will be about 4% better than the gas models. So for people leasing, even though the msrp is higher than the 3.0si, the payments will be very close. All I have left to do, is wait for my dealer to get one for me to try.

Please let us know how your negotiations go.

Tim

It won't be too complicated; 5 - 6% off MSRP (I think they have 9% + some back end that we don't see).

I'm just waiting to see what the MSRP will be. If I decide to go ahead, I'll be ordering for the first production slot available with the new iDrive system.

I thought it was 7%. I agree, we will never see any hold back money...
As far as I know, BMW hasn't released the cost to the dealers...

Craig

9% is what the wholesale service I use for my commercial vehicles says. There used to be an additional 2% to the dealer for a delivery survey that ranked 10/10, but I don't think that program is still around.

I've had a 3.0sd since early april. Yes it's a little noisy at idle (only from outside) but apart from that the noise is a non-issue. The exhaust fumes smell absolutely nothing like diesel - they smell almost mildy bleachy - a kind of nothingness smell. Hard to explain. The US model should be even better, here in AU we don't get the adblue exhaust treatment.

Performance, well in most actual day-to-day driving situations you won't miss anything from the V8 except maybe the sound. In fact you'll often accelerate faster than the V8 in traffic. The 3.0sd has a nice sound of it's own anyway.

I've just hit 20,000km's. The computer says service is due in another 14,000, and my average fuel consumption over the life of the vehicle so far is 9.5L/100km (24.7mpg) - 4000km's were highway/roadtrip, the rest were city driving to and from work each day and I give it plenty of gas pedal
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I believe both engines has pros and cons depending on the use you will have for your X5: The gasoline V8 showed less vibration when I drove the US spec in the BMW factory, it is more fun to drive in both city and highway and it has that great V8 sound. Choosing between a gas or diesel engine comes down to what you'll do with the X5 and where you live. If you use your X5 like a car, desire quick, quiet acceleration, rarely haul a heavy load, and you don't plan on keeping it past 100,000 miles, you may want to consider the V8 gas engine. However, if you use your X5 for towing, value good fuel economy, and plan on racking up loads of miles, diesel is for you. Also take into consideration the price per gallon of the diesel in the U.S. is still quite high compare to gas. My V8 is averaging 17mpg with a mix 60% city 40% highway. Assuming the diesel makes 26mpg it represents 52% better fuel economy, but the price per gallon of diesel is also 40% more expensive here in Colorado ($2.80/diesel vs. $2.00/premium) so it is only 8% savings or equivalent to say the diesel mpg drops from 26 to 18 miles per gallon in comparable dollars. Not great of a solution in the U.S. as you can see. Good luck with your decision.

So, 80% city driving yields 9.5L/100 average. I think that is great mileage considering the size, performance and utility of the X5. Is the 3.0sd the same engine (minus the adblue) that North America will get (i.e. twin turbo)?

Yes, it's the same engine with twin turbos. We get a 265HP version. Europe/ rest of the world get a 286HP engine. They also don't have all the emission controls we have in the U.S. The U.S. version should't be as loud as the ROW engine from what I've heard...

Craig

Long time lurker...first time poster. I am desperately waiting for the twin-turbo diesel. I am currently in Germany and torn between a good deal on a stock 3.0 or waiting for the price list for the 35d. I have the benefit of using the military car sales channel here and we should be getting the diesels here by the end of Feb/early March. I, like everyone else am interested to see if the packages differ than the 3.0si. I haven't driven the diesel over here yet but of the X5s I do see, they are mostly diesels (Euro versions that is).

Well said. I will still drive the diesel to compare versus the V8, but in the U.S. I believe the V8 is still the king of the hill. The fuel consumption is only slightly better taking the price per gallon difference into consideration. Thank you for the information. This forum is great.

Where I live, premium fuel is currently 1.009/liter and diesel ranges from 1.029 - 1.169. By my calculation, for someone who drives 50 km/day in the city (1,500 km/month, or 18, 000 km/year), fuel savings will be about $800CAD/year. The more you drive, the more you will save.

I admit that $800.00 doesn't sound like allot, but based on the above, I'd onl have to stop and fill up every 15 days in a 35d, but would have to stop every 9 - 10 days in the 4.8. That means I can pick up diesel at that discount place at the other end of my town, when I am in the area and pay 1.029/liter instead of 1.109, making my savings closer to $1,100CAD/year. :)

I've decided that for me, the 4.8 uses too much fuel. The 3.0si doesn't perform well enough. I'm hoping the 35d is "just right", with better performance than the 3.0 and better fuel economy than the 4.8. What could be better than that? :)

Point taken, but where I live (West Coast) I am still seeing diesel 30% to 35% more expensive than premium gas. Are you sure about the prices you posted? Also I am not sure the 35sd will perform better than the 4.8. My firend has a V8 and it is "the ride". Let's wait for a test drive, but I am leaning towards the V8.

I agree with you Grover. Now, if they ever come out with the new I drive...

Craig

Diesel is .56 more per gallon here than Premium at BP. 2.099 for premium and diesel the last time I checked was 2.659...

Craig

The rumor is March production. I've noticed the secification for the 35d are up on the BMW Canada website. I'm expecting pricing this week.

Thank you Craig. Therefore the price gap is around 30% like I said. I guess it depends where you live. I would love to know the "real life" mpg of the diesel so we can make the comparison. 26mpg vs. 17mpg (posted by Barcius) seems a little high to me. 24mpg vs. 17mpg would put the difference around 40%, which does not convince me to buy the diesel specially because when the economy starts growing again so will the demand for diesel and a wider gap versus gasoline.

I'm not sure about Europe, but here in Australia the 3.0sd (aka 35d) is rated at 200 kiloWatt, or 268 horsepower using the conversion of 1kW = 1.341hp. In the X6 as sold in Australia, the power of this engine has bumped up to 210kW, or 281hp.

You are doing well getting 17mpg. Either, you are a very smooth driver or, you are very light on the throttle. My experience tells me the 4.8 is more like a 15mpg engine and can easily become a 13mpg engine, or worse without too much provocation. The diesel engine doesn't make the X5 into some sort of crude, long-haul truck, best used for towing. The massive bottom end and mid-range thrust makes for plenty of fun and more instantaneous acceleration than the 4.8.

You missed my point. I believe, in the US, the diesel does not add to a lot of savings. Price per gallon here is substantially higher than gasoline (the price gap may increase as the economy rebounds) and the fuel economy difference is big, but does not put a lot of $ in your pocket as it may in Australia. Also taken into consideration that here in the US it is not common to have gas stations that sell diesel mainly in city areas. Therefore, in my opinion since I have driven both US diesel spec and the 4.8, the V8 is the winner in this side of the pond. No vibration, smooth as silk, V8 sound, super fast acceleration etc. However, it may have a niche for diesel here if use the X5 primarily for towing and you may want to keep it for more than 100,000 miles since the diesel is well known for its durability.

Agree. Here in America diesel will be a niche market. I am not sure why an Australian is trying to understand more about this market than us Americans. :banghead:

Let's look at it this way. Forget the fuel savings arguement. The 35d will be .5 secs slower to 60 than the 4.8 and cost about $7,500CAD less (assuming a $4,000CAD option cost). It will be $,4,000 more than the 3.0si and 1.0 sec quicker 0 - 60.

BMW tends to price cars by performance, so I think the 35d is a pretty good value, compared to the 4.8. It is reported to have better low end torque than the 4.8 making it great for city driving. Also, given fuel mileage reports from owners of 4.8's that "drive" them, fuel mileage can be as bad as 12 - 13 mpg. Diesels just seem to perform better when pushed than gas engines and with 450 lb. ft of torque, I don't think you'll be pushing the 35d as much as the 4.8.

I'm looking for efficient utility. If I just wanted to go fast, I'd get a 5 series.

Agree 100% in Canada, the diesel price way to high in Quebec, more then other province to make a justifictaion on fuel savings, plus don't forget, it needs that new low sulfur diesel, not the common diesel

Grover. That's great argument.:bustingup

Just read an interesting article about the future of diesel cars in the US: " As a number of European vehicle manufacturers push ahead with plans to market more diesel cars in the US market, GM's global head of product development Bob Lutz told just-auto that there are significant problems for diesel that will hold back its market penetration there.
"Here's the problem for diesels and, as Europeans [automakers] are about to find out, Euro 5 is much more expensive than Euro 4 and Euro 6 is going to be more expensive still," Lutz said.
Lutz maintains that federal emissions regulations in the US will be expensive for diesel engines to meet.
"In the US we have Bin 5 Tier 2 and that is more severe than Euro 5 and is about the same as Euro 6. So, the emissions hardware required in the US for diesels starting in 2010 is extremely expensive. You will be paying a very substantial price premium even over today's diesels," he said.
"You will have the privilege of paying another $3,000 to get a 20% fuel saving to buy a fuel that is 20% more expensive per gallon than normal pump petrol. You have to start asking yourself, where's the benefit?"
Lutz also pointed out that differential taxation rates helped diesel to take-off in Europe, something that isn't present in the US."

I drive a X5 SD since a few months and i have to say this a fantastic car. This is my first diesel BMW. Until now i only had BMW and all with 6 cylinders petrol engines. I have to admit, i was very sceptical about this engine, but i was wrong: lots of power and acceleration. Here in belgium they sell 95% of the X5 with diesel engines. There is simply no reason to buy a 4.8i (in belgium) unless you really don't care about money. Apart from the engine sound (which is really important for me i have to say) i see no reason to choose the 4.8i over the SD.
Apart from the engine, i'm really impressed by this car: active steering and adpative drive is really impressive.

Good post, MrX...I had seen versions of that also.
And, back at the Refining Ranch, diesel demand worldwide,
(even with the current oil demand pullback), is on a major
upswing vs. refining ability or, fulfillment.

As I posted before, it will take a great leap, both wallet-wise
and faith in the diesel car process to make diesel cars cost
effective and "work" here in the US, imo.

The upcharge and the perennial fuel cost difference make it
a tough sell for the "average" buyer, imo.
GL,mD

Agree 100%. The question here is not about the diesel capabilities. It is probably much better than the 3.0si and challenge the V8, but does it work in the US market? The diesel price gap versus gasoline will get wider next year, which will make the better mileage of the diesel probably disappear or worse. I will still drive the diesel when it hit the showrooms, but the V8 seems the logical choice here in the US. Moreover, a discount on a diesel will be probably much less than compared to the V8, which is out much longer since 2007.

I'm interested in how you took fraser's comment as 'trying to understand more about the US market'. He simply made a couple of factual comments about some characteristics of the two engines which have nothing to do with any market in particular.

Isn't Mr. Lutz talking about the difficulties his company will face bringing diesel vehicles to the North American market? BMW and Mercedes already have Bluetec engines that meet Bin 5 Tier 2 which is required for emission regulations in 2010. So the cost of diesel emission equipment for these two companies will not go up.

The change to Bluetec by Mercedes (2008 to 2009) resulted in a 1L/100km fuel consumption increase and the 35d has already been rated, so there should be no additional costs related to fuel economy, moving forward.

As for diesel fuel costs, this is of course the wild card. At this point, the drivability of the diesel puts it close in performance to the 4.8, with lower monthly fueling costs (considering better mileage but higher diesel cost).

If BMW introduces the gas TT in the X5, it would have similar performance to the 4.8 with slightly better fuel economy. The X6 35i uses 15.7 L/100 cit and 11.8 L/100 hwy. I would expect the X5 to be similar. This compares to the 4.8 at 16.8 City/12.4 hwy. Not a huge diference, but the option cost should be no more than the diesel, which, in Cnada would mean a savings of $7,000 on the purchase price of a 35i X5.

Of course the 35d would be the vehicle of choice ofr me. In my area, if I hunt around, I can buy diesel for about the same as premium fuel (that's today, who knows about tomorrow). Given the uncertainty, I'd be inclined to lease an X535d rather than purchase.

I guess there is no free lunch when it comes to fuel economy. the same thing is happening to people who buy hybrids. You save at the pump, but you have to pay thousands more for the technology. After8 years you need to buy a new battery for $7,000. If you trade before then, you have to deduct this cost from value. In addition, ou face the uncertainty of future value of your hybrid car/suv as emerging technologies are likely to obsolete your hybrid (in terms of technology) with better, cheaper and more efficient hybrids. It's the early adopter cost we are paying with those vehicles right now.

I'm starting to think Honda Civic .....

Thanks for the support. I'm not "trying to understand the US market" nor am I trying to predict whether the X5 diesel will be a success in the US. All that will play out in due course.

When diesel power first arrived in the X5 in Australia (in early 2003 in the E53) many people were sceptical that buyers would accept diesel in a luxury vehicle. But the diesel engine, and the subsequent diesels in both the E53 and the E70 (we have now had four generations of diesel engines in the X5 in Australia) have proved a run-away success despite the fact that we pay anywhere between 10% and 25% more for diesel than petrol (it varies all the time). And, like the US, not all fuel stations (especially in the cities) sell diesel. For most diesel buyers it's not simply a matter of relative fuel costs and economy, it comes down to the diesel's superior real-world drivability.

Good analysis Grover432. He was indeed saying about GM, but my point is the future price gap between diesel and gasoline. Like you said, there is no free lunch. I am more inclined to get a V8 this year because I think it still drives better than the diesel and I could get a nice discount off MSRP when compared to the diesel since the diesel has just been announced. I will wait to drive the diesel to make my final decision.

Fraser, I do get your point, but each market is different. I do not know much about the market where you are, but I understand the V8 and the diesel versions of the X5 are much more expensive in Australia compared to the US. Therefore the price of admission is very different. For us on this side of the pond, it is probably a harder choice to make. With regards to the diesel performance versus gas, I am still skeptical about it. It is difficult to imagine that a V8 gasoline will not crush the diesel in real-world drivability. Reading what Barcius posted, he test drove both US spec cars in the factory here in the US and most of the drivers voted for the V8 as the better/superior car in most aspects. I believe BMW took the results and priced the diesel accordingly. I can give you my impression once I drive the diesel. I've been racing for years here is the US so I can give a honest and professional feedback once I drive it.

Why do you think the price gap between diesel and gas would widen?

Tim

There are a couple amazing assumptions here (belonging to Lutz, not MrX) -

The only reason anyone would buy a diesel is for for fuel savings and that savings must result in a lower TCO for said auto or there's no reason for a consumer to buy a diesel. Personally, I tow a boat and I want an engine that will last hundreds of thousands of miles.

Assumption #2 - Execs at GM are still credible (ya, cheap shot - I know).


Tim

I work for a company with a fleet of thousands of sales vehicles. We recently bought 10 Jetta diesel to test their durability and performance over the next 4 years. I have been reading a lot of opinions about why the price gap of diesel versus gasoline has widen over the last couple of years. The consensus is that it will continue for several reasons:
1. Demand for gas in the US has decreased, but diesel demand remains strong
2. Demand for diesel in Europe continues to grow fueled by government incentives on diesel cars
3. As refineries cut gas production to meet demand it negatively impacts diesel production too
4. Oil industry is postponing investment in diesel refining capacity despite record profits.

Make sense?

I think that everything in Australia is more expensive than the US! Current X5 Aussie pricing is:

3-litre six-cylinder petrol: $86,635
3-litre six-cylinder single-turbo diesel: $88,541
3-litre six-cylinder twin-turbo diesel: $105,490
4.8-litre V8 petrol: $121,908

Aussie dollar is currently worth 65 cents US. Six months ago it was close to parity (97 cents).

As for relative performance between the 4.8 and the twin-turbo diesel, in Aussie spec the 4.8 is 0.7 second faster to 100 kilometres per hour (6.5s v 7.2s) and 0.7 second faster over the standing-start kilometre (26.6s v 27.3s). For your reference, 1 kilometre = 0.62 mile.

However, these figures don't tell the whole story. I've driven both the 4.8 and the 35d back to back over an extended period (not just at a customer clinic) and the V8 simply can't match the diesel's huge bottom-end and mid-range power and needs all the revs that it can muster to see off the diesel. By 1200rpm the diesel is already making more torque than the 4.8 ever produces, and the diesel's peak torque is some 20% better than the 4.8 and is produced from 2000rpm whereas the 4.8's peak torque doesn't come on stream until 3400rpm. As a racer, I'm sure that you will appreciate that performance is not just about peak power, but power spread and power delivery. I can't really comment on Barcius' comments because all my experience has been with the Australian models and your models (both petrol and diesel) may be significantly different.

I don't know enough about the fuel industry to disagree but it did make me think of something. I had always assumed the price disparity was due to taxes since diesel used to be considerably cheaper. Now I'm wondering if it's more because it's ULSD. Which leads to the follow up question - do European gov'ts subsidize diesel or are they possibly burning the old non ULSD that requires less refining (making the price cheaper than gas)?

Tim

Fraser, thank you for the info. There is a huge difference between the biturbo diesel and the V8 in Australia. Here in the US the difference is approximately only $6K according to the sticker, but can be actually less expensive in real life assuming the dealers are currently heavily discounting the cars in stock. I will take your word about your experience with the diesel versus gasoline. Like I said, it is very hard for me to picture a gasoline BMW V8 engine losing to a diesel, but I will defer the decision after I drive both vehicles. My friend has a V8 with the sport package and the drive is absolutely fantastic. Can not wait to buy one. I drove a 3.0si gasoline at the dealer and it is not the engine I would choose to move this monster. I will keep you posted. It may be true that the US spec is not as good as the Australia one.

It looks like I'm going to place my order for the diesel tomorrow. I haven't driven the diesel, but have driven both the 4.8 and 3.0. I didn't feel like waiting another year for the new I drive. I should have it around the first of the year...

Craig

Graig, please let me know the price you pay. My dealer is not discounting the diesel, but it is willing to go invoice + $2K on the V8 if I order it or invoice if I get one from their stock. I just want to drive one soon so I can make my decision. I would hate to miss the deal on the V8 right now.

As much as I am a converted 'diesel head' ( I love my X5 diesel and would never go back to V8 petrol power) I suggest that you drive the diesel before you buy. Diesels have a different 'feel' to a petrol engine and some people just don't like them.

MrX, I sent you a private message. Fraser, I've driven the diesel Mercedes ML and other than not having enough passing power, found it drove fine. I don't feel like waiting any longer for a test drive. I've waited two years for the diesel.

Regards,

Craig

Two years is a long time! I can understand your position.

That deal just tells you where the dealer and BMW think the value for the V8 is going to be once the 35d gets here. As for performance of the diesel vs the V8, I can believe the Aussie review above. Top Gear tested a BMW 535d and I believe if beat an M5 to 40 mph. Most vehicles seem to have either high HP (they are blisteringly fast once they get going), or high torque (and they move incredibly fast off the line. At some point the two designs intersect. So, off the line and to say 40 mph the 35d will likely outperform the 4.8, after that the 4.8 will pass the 35d and keep going.

Don't laugh at this comparison, but my only experience with diesel was a 2004 Dodge 3/4 Ton Ram pickup. It had something like 525 lb. ft of torque and 285 hp. I'm not one to race from stoplight to stoplight, but when I wasn't pulling a trailer and found myself in the curb lane waiting for a light to turn green - cars parked in the curb lane ahead - I never got beat to 35 mph by anything that was stopped to the left of me (OK, Porsches, etc. not included). And the truck did it effortlessly. My only gripe? Turbo lag.

I'm reserving judgement until I drive the diesel as well. But having come from one, I'm expecting great things and as far as usable performance, I totally understand where the Aussie is coming from.

Thank you Grover432. Good points except for the point above. I do not think the dealer and BMW think the value of the V8 will suffer following the introduction of the diesel. It is because the V8 has been around since 2007 so they have in stock and are ready to deal. The diesel is a novelty for now and it attracted a lot of attention because it finally made to the US shores after being acclaimed worldwide. I believe when the dealer starts getting them more frequently it will get discounted too. It happened to a colleague from work who purchased an M3 from our dealer just after its introduction and now you can find the same car at a discount and low APR. Patience and do not get emotional are the secret here and in many other financial decisions including real estate...:thumbup:

This is kind of off-topic, just offering it simply for info - in AU the bulk of the extra cost in the V8 is due to several extra options being standard. When I was buying my 3.0sd I worked out that if you deducted the cost of the things which are standard on the V8 but are optional on all the other models here, there's only a couple of thousand dollars difference.

Similarly, once I'd specced up my 3.0sd with a bunch of goodies, it came out very close in price to a V8 specced up the same way.

MrX,

In my neck of the woods, SUV's in general, have fallen out of favor. It seems that people were scared by the high fuel costs of last summer and although fuel prices have dropped, most people believe they will eventually head back to where they were. the SUVs that use the most fuel are sitting on lots the longest and are being discounted the most. Take for example the Mercedes GL550; US dealers have them piled up on their lots while the GL320 Blutec is selling reasonably well. If you look at the lease end values (36 months) on those 2 models, you will see a 4 - 6% difference. This is a clear indication of where MB expects to see future values of these gas guzzlers.

It is no different with BMW. If the dealer has allot of them, it's because they ordered too many, or people aren't buying them; hence the deeper price cuts. My local dealer has 3 X5 (3.0si) left over from 2008 and zero 4.8's. Why? They scaled back on ordering 4.8's 6 months ago and only brought them in on order. Maybe our smaller market dictates a different strategy, but I think the trend is following in larger markets as well.

I agree that discounting on the 35d will be less in the initial period, however unless BMW holds back production, by spring when SUV sales slow anyway, customers will be able to get a much better deal.

I guess we'll have to wait and see. :)

With the 35d, turbo lag, or anything that counts as turbo lag, just doesn't exist. Unlike the twin turbo diesels from Audi, VW, Land Rover, Toyota, or Jaguar, where each of their equal size turbos feeds a bank of either four or five cylinders in their respective V8 or V10 engines, and therefore work in independently in parallel, not helping each other, the twin turbos in BMW's 35d straight six work as as a team, sequentially. There's a small turbo (with little inertia) that gets things going off idle, and a big one (that can blow hard) that takes over once the things are underway. The two seamlessly interact, or that's at least as the Aussie spec twin-turbo diesels work.

I don't disagree with your comment that there is no perceptible turbo lag with the 35d, but it isn't because of the sequential turbos, it is because of careful turbo matching and design. Try driving a 35i, which has a parallel turbo arrangement, and you will find no turbo lag.

All of this discussion about the 35d having more torque and being much more drivable than the 4.8 is missing the mark, in my opinion. People are comparing naturally aspirated engines and turbo engines, and concluding that the differences are due to the gasoline or diesel fuel, when the differences are in fact due to the turbos. Look at the torque figures for the 35i compared to the 35d; the gasoline engine has peak torque at 1300 rpm, instead of 1900 rpm. That makes it more drivable than the diesel, and better suited for towing. No, it doesn't have the same peak torque, but if that is what you need then look at the 4.4 twin turbo.

I assume you are talking about the engine in the 335i (X6)? Doesn't it also have sequential turbos? It only has 300 lb ft. albeit at 500 rpm lower, as opposed to 425 lb. ft. I believe the difference in the seat of the pants will be noticeable. Also, when you compare the fuel mileage of the 2 engines, the 335i is rated at 14.7L/100 City, which is much higher consumption with the diesel. There is no question that the 35d produces the torque it does because of the turbos, but that's Ok with me, as long as it has the torque.

As for pulling, I'll take the higher torque number at +500 rpm. You'll never notice the difference in where the peak torque is when the difference in peak is 500 rpm. Also, I think you'd have to take a look at the torque curves. I'm betting the 35d is producing more than 300 lb. ft. at 1,300 rpm.

This diesel is a great development - now if the cost of diesel didn't wipe out the economics ...

Diesel here is only about 45 cents more per gallon than premium unleaded.
It looks like I'm the only one that has one on order. I hope I don't end up with a lemon.

Craig

My 35i is in a 535, not a 335, but it is the same engine. No, the petrol 3.0 twin turbo does not have sequential turbos, it has parallel turbos as I said above (one for each three cylinders).

No argument that the 35d produces the torque because of the turbos, but if you take that one step further it is not because it is a diesel. Twin-turbo petrol engines have similar characteristics.

If you want more torque than the torque peak of the 35i (at 1300 rpm) then look at the 4.4 twin turbo, as I said.

Would be interested if you have a torque curve for the diesel, and not just the peak torque figure.

I disagree, diesel produces more torque because of the greater compression ratio, look back at before all diesels were turbo'd. A Gardner ( a great British engine) produced loads of torque compared to power. A 6XLB was rated at 180 BHP and 600+ lb ft of torque, all down to the high compression ratio and that derv has a higher callorific value than petrol.

I think you americans should stop fantacising and wait until you have driven a 3.0sd, having had the engine in first a 535d Sport and noe a X% 3.0sd, i can tell you that the driving experience delivered is far superior to anything a petrol of ant configuration can deliver. Why is almost all UK and Europe's for that matter diesel powered, it is not that we are all misers but we know a good drive when we have experienced it.

I notice also on the sister X6 forum that there is concern about warm up time on diesels. This may have been a factor in the past due to the greater thermal efficency of the diesel engine, (less heat is wasted to the coolent) but with thermostasic fans and BMW's efficency Dynamics wher the grill is close untill cool air is needed, i would sugest this id now no longer a problem.

I disagree, diesel produces more torque because of the greater compression ratio, look back at before all diesels were turbo'd. A Gardner ( a great British engine) produced loads of torque compared to power. A 6XLB was rated at 180 BHP and 600+ lb ft of torque, all down to the high compression ratio and that derv has a higher callorific value than petrol.

I think you americans should stop fantacising and wait until you have driven a 3.0sd, having had the engine in first a 535d Sport and noe a X% 3.0sd, i can tell you that the driving experience delivered is far superior to anything a petrol of ant configuration can deliver. Why is almost all UK and Europe's for that matter diesel powered, it is not that we are all misers but we know a good drive when we have experienced it.

I notice also on the sister X6 forum that there is concern about warm up time on diesels. This may have been a factor in the past due to the greater thermal efficency of the diesel engine, (less heat is wasted to the coolent) but with thermostasic fans and BMW's efficency Dynamics wher the grill is close untill cool air is needed, i would sugest this id now no longer a problem.

The greater torque isn't because of the compression ratio. It is because of the longer stroke (which also limits the rpm). That long crank arm is what makes the torque. You can use a short stroke, and a smaller combustion chamber, to achieve the same compression ratio, but then you wouldn't have much torque.

I know something of the Gardner engines, but I would struggle to put them in the 'great' category in a current (modern day) discussion. You like the Mirlees Blackstones as well?

If you are referring to heating value (calorific value) then petrol is higher than diesel, as I recall. It is just that a diesel engine can extract more energy due to the higher compression ratio.

Almost all UK vehicles are diesel because of government tax structures on diesel fuel, not inherent superiority. That tax structure has encouraged manufacturers to further develop automotive diesels, and they are efficient appliances, no doubt. They just have no soul IMO.

PS: If you call me an american, I will come and hit you with both my Canadian and UK passports :stickpoke

JCL

As i recall when i was at college 1 gallon of derv had more callorific value than i gallon of petrol.

I stated that Gardner was an engine of the past, a Great British one only to state that diesels without turbos have a much higher torque to power ratio, the turbo only multiplies this both power and torque due to more air being forced into the cylinder so more fuel can be injected hence more power.

As for your argument regarding tax, RUBISH, the diesel X5 makes a much better drive than any petrol, it would probably be cheaper to fuel a petrol one here in the Uk at the moment petrol being 15p a litre cheaper than derv and Alister darling would only want another £120 a year in Road Fund over 12000 miles a year there would be something or nothing in the economics of running either, just the diesel and the sync turbo sd is a much better car and i sugest you try one that has at least 6000 miles on before making any judgements.

since things are heating up.....

Unless you want to drive 30 miles in some random direction to find the cheapest fuel, we're at 60 cents here in the Atlanta area, which is better than it has been but still pretty sucky (premium compared to diesel). Personally, My reasons for wanting a diesel have nothing to do with the cost of fuel but paying that much more does bother me. It's principle more than budget, I completely despise the predatory oil industry.

So, we'll get back on topic and then I'll rant some more. This has been a really good thread and I hope we can keep it going. :D

Craig - I should just speak for myself but I think many of us are silently waiting for your "First Impressions in my new X5 xDrive35d" thread. I know I am. Before our friends in other county's who have the SD chime in that it's not new, I think all that adblue crap is new and we'll have to see how it works out (I'm using the word "crap" affectionately). I will probably order one myself but am waiting on some things:

your thread ;)

New iDrive

Let's all take off the rosy colored BMW glasses and admit the old system sucked. Not just compared to today's stuff but it always sucked. The added buttons are what make the new system usable. I rented an Audi in Europe for a couple weeks last summer and loved their system. I'm specifically referring to the physical ergonomic portion, my opinion on the UI and features is neutral. BTW, the Audi was a diesel (and a station wagon) AND I loved it! I didn't expect to but holy shit.. for my fellow Americans, you don't know what we're missing.

This will be the third time I'm trying to buy a BMW. The dealerships are a huge problem. For some f*cked up reason, they think they are doing me a favor by selling me a BMW. I know these are luxury automobiles but I do work hard for my money. Tip for any CA's reading this - don't treat me like I have sucker stamped on my forehead. I expect that at domestic and non luxury foreign dealerships but NOT a BMW dealership.

The other problems I am having trouble getting over are:

the issues that go unfixed - back up camera for one, squeaky rear hatch for another

the nickel and diming on the options - CA $1000? Heated front seats $500? For a SAV with a base MSRP of $50Kish these really should be standard items. Yes, I realize some of you folks in other country's pay even more for your BMW's making my point double valid.

I love reading these forums but the crowd that continually makes excuses for BMW's shortcomings need to see one of those guys that breaks people from their cults. "There's a lot of technology in this car" and "it's a new model" are not acceptable answers for cars that cost as much as bimmer's do.

Ok, that's all. I'm really not a hater and have high expectations for the new X5sd but I guess my point is, if it doesn't meet my expectations I'm not going to buy it just to say I drive a BMW. Don't get me wrong, I really do want one. The X5 is simply the best looking SUV (SAV - whatever) out there and I hope to own one this spring.

Flame suit on, fire away!

Tim

Tim, I agree with you about the options. Porsche is worse than BMW. They charge for everything. They even charge for footwell lighting. When I ordered my 996tt back in 2002, I couldn't believe it. I did order the heated seats and comfort access, but felt like they should have been standard, not an option. You can buy a Nissan Altima and I don't know what they call their comfort access, but it's standard on a car that starts at less than $20K. I will let everyone know how it drives when I take delivery. I think dealers will have demos around December 15th. There is a 1555.00 IRS tax credit for the diesel X5.

Craig

Footwell lighting? Wow, guess I'll shut up about the options.

You know, the more I think about it, between my BMWCCA discount and the tax credit I may do alright.

I've been meaning to google the tax credit, is that $1550 deducted from my taxable income or am I actually getting $1550 back?

Tim

answered my own question here:

http://www.smartmoney.com/personal-f...-credit-23794/

"Remember that a buck worth of credit is much more valuable than a buck worth of deduction--because a credit reduces your federal income tax bill dollar for dollar"

The Merc's are listed but not the Bimmer's. I suppose it's because the article is from September.

Tim

Tim, I'm also going to receive the $1000.00 credit from my BMWCCA membership. The footwell lighting was like 740.00. I didn't order it. It was a light bulb on each side under the dash, so when you opened the doors, you could see your feet LOL! I thought I made a pretty good deal on the diesel. The longer I waited, the price kept coming down. One dealer started at MSRP and I told them to take me off their list. They called back about a week later to let me know they would offer a small discount. I told them, I don't want a small discount, I want a big discount. I ordered it out of town, not from my local dealer. This is my 4th BMW, and I haven't been able to purchase any from my local dealer. They have one coming in that's not sold. They said, we have a list of buyers if you don't want the car. I said OK, call someone else. They only have allocation for one diesel for the whole model year.

Craig

On the issue of diesel performance, fuel economy is it worth it? I think the point made by BMW in this piece from Edmunds (at the LA Auto Show) is interesting:

"The 2009 X5 xDrive35d, er, diesel X5, comes in at $52,025, but since the base X5 lacks the company's twin-turbo gasoline inline-6, the price jump is easier to swallow. BMW says the diesel X5 will hit 60 mph in 6.8 seconds -- as quick as the V8 X5. Rated at 19 city/26 highway, it's vastly more efficient than any other BMW X5 past or present."

So for those opting for the 4.8, I say this. You get a vehicle (35d) that will all but match the 4.8 in acceleration and best the fuel economy by 40%+ on an mpg basis. After you adjust for cost, you'll still be 20% ahead, with a vehicle that costs $7,000CAD less than the 4.8. That's why they are going to sell and have better residuals than the 4.8. It get my provisional (until I drive it) vote.

I agree that comparing a turbocharged diesel engine to a naturally aspirated petrol engine is technically unfair, but in this thread where the relative merits of the X5 engine options, ie. two naturally aspirated petrols and one turbodiesel, are under discussion, the comparison is 100 percent valid.

As for the relative merits of the twin turbo systems of 35i and 35d, saying that the 35i doesn't have lag therefore the sequential turbos of the 35d aren't designed to minimise lag is like saying a horse has four legs, therefore all things with four legs are horses.

With these two twin-turbo engines, the inherent differences between diesel and petrol engines come into play. BMW's naturally aspirated petrol six already makes reasonable top-end power but lacks low-down torque. The bottom end torque can be helped easily via turbo-charging and provided you don't want lots more power, mild (low-blow) turbocharging will do the job nicely, in this case by two very small, low interia turbos that spin up really quickly. As you say the 35i has already reached max torque by 1300rpm. Peak power however only jumps something like 12 percent. BMW could have jumped the power by 50 percent or better by using bigger turbo(s) but that risks introducing lag unless more sophisticated technology like sequential turbo charging or variable vane turbos is used.

In the case of the 35d, it would be next to useless without turbocharging. A three-litre atmo diesel would be doing well to make half the power of the 35d. The 35d enjoys this big power jump as its main turbo is a relative wopper and it needs its smaller mate to kick things off at the bottom end of the rpm range. It's more of a case of the diesel needing the extra sophistication of sequential changing while the petrol can get away with simpler parallel twin turbos.

It would be nice to have all the X6 engine options, especially the twin-turbo 4.4, in the X5. It can't be long off. Here's hoping!