Quote:
Originally Posted by Bdc101
In tire tests, typically the winter tire has significantly less grip in hot, dry conditions than either summer or all-season tires. I have never been to Chicago, but I generally don't expect that it's that much different from other places.
For reference, on the entire spectrum of tires, the stickiest racing slick won't have twice the traction of the crappiest chinese all-season. I don't disagree with your statement, but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you've probably have had an experience with a bad summer tire -- something chinese, something not made for performance (they certainly exist) or something worn out or abused. Some very good winter tires might be better in hot/dry conditions than some very bad, perhaps worn out or aged summer tires, but generally you will be hard pressed to find any situation where this would be true.
Again, I don't disagree that your tires provide decent grip, but I would be exceptionally surprised to see them out-pace a good summer tire in warm, dry conditions. Read through this article if you haven't seen it before. The snow tire takes significantly longer to stop and has lower lateral grip than either the summer or the all-season tire. (And the summer tire in this test was not even really a performance tire, either, just a family car tire with a summer compound.)
https://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/...vs-summer.html
(Source: mechanical engineer who studied vehicle dynamics in Formula SAE in engineering school) |
You missed the critical point that makes my argument;
I'm pointing out, that in a worst case summer scenario, ALL summer tires absolutely suck.
I could literally tow any similar weight car with all four wheels locked across an oily wet pavement.
Nobody does this test, but I have experienced it first hand with very high performance summer tires.
The very thing that makes summer tires excel is their pitfall: surface area!
When I say double the traction I am being literal, I may be off by a factor of two and it's only 50% better but I'll take it.
I am saying that where fantastic summer tires might achieve 0.25g braking on oily wet pavement I'll be able to achieve 0.5g. I'm not kidding and I have done some testing on slush where I was able to achieve 50% of dry road g force with my 235s.
Just comparing the 235s vs the 255s, same tires, my x with the 235s could drag the other across most winter surfaces. I'm saying the same can be said for summer tires and worst case summer roads; an urban road like downtown Chicago when it first rains after a 3 week spell of no rain makes the roads literally more slippery than snow.
This is one of the conditions where I will literally have twice the traction of a summer tire. The large contact patch of a summer tire just petro planes over the surface where my "studless" tires works their way through to asphalt.
The other condition where they excel is wet leaves which also are slippery as snot. (40-50,000 miles on a motorcycle you learn exactly what is slippery or not and just how slippery) I would rather ride a mc over snow than wet leaves.
"The testing" I've seen has never included either of these hazards and I'm well aware that a 1 season tire will beat my 3.9 season tire at least 40 or 50 days a year. My entire point is that when the shit gets dicey in real world drivng, I have far more control because my tires will grip better than 95% of the tires on the road in the conditions where it matters.
I just stumbled into it by accident. The auction where I bought my car got in a bit of a bidding war that consumed the entire budget so I was stuck with winter tires that it came with, I'd have never done on purpose.
However, I noticed pretty quickly that my car amazingly out performed my wife's nearly identical X5 in every way.
For a long time I thought it was because I had sport suspension, but when I got a new set of tires, I put my old ones with about 1/3 tread left on wife's car and it instantly had similar performance to mine!
Where I first noticed the difference was wet leaves; where I had to be cautious with the Z28 around corners I found that I could go quite a bit faster than the Z with the X if there were spotty areas of wet leaves. I could just ignore and drive normally (means no brake left turns at city speeds) with the X,. And that behavior would put me in the ditch if I tried that in the Z.
I know how hard I can brake with my tires and I can't brake anywhere nearly as hard with 3-season tires if there is even a hint of oil on the road. I'm aware of are least three times I've been able to stop in an emergency that would have resulted in a collision had the only difference been 3-season tires vs winter tires. This is my public service announcement; if you are more safety for you and family than absolutely maximum performance on clean dry hot pavement, than look into the unadvertised safety factor of year 'round winter tire use.
I understand that lots of people don't drive in urban areas, don't drive where the weather can literally swing 90° in 24 hours, and these concepts don't apply.
If you drive where there is a lot of traffic, where it doesn't rain every day to clear the oil, winter tires will give you more grip than 3-season tires at least 300 of the 365 days of the year.
When I drove a friend's X5 that had relatively new duelers on it, I was shocked that I couldn't go 45-50 up an on ramp without drifting. I could have easily gone 5-7 mph faster with my X.
When I had my Z, it came with eagle GS-C: asymmetrical and unidirectional. On clean dry pavement the grip was absolutely insane! The way I take left corners in the city (off throttle to the apex, no brakes), I could do the same with right turns in the Z, in fact on 4-lane roads I didn't have to drop the throttle: 35 mph right turn only required a sharp 90° turn of the steering wheel no other input necessary. (well maybe a quick jab of the left elbow and knee to stay somewhere close to the center of the seat). So; yes I'm quite aware of good summer tires, also aware of their limitations; about 8 wet leaves and that right turn described above would end up in at least a 180° spin.
Wife's car has summer tires on it, as soon as I get a chance I'll figure out a way to do some g-force testing to demonstrate with some objective values to back up what I'm saying. (will have to be soon before I put Winters back on).