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Old 08-10-2006, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW X5
absolutely but they had warning they were told to get the f*$k out they were and are still being asked to leave, if they dont want to get killed then why not give up the magic carpet gang? because they will kill them so in this case its a matter of who kills them first, and they are letting the magic carpets use their homes so you know what if you sympathize with them then in my book you are no better than them. yes Israel has killed but they do precision bombings from military aircrafts FOR A REASON they arent shooting the dam bombs into air and hoping it hits something and kills a lot of people
Ask yourself this, though. If another country came to you and told you, "Hey, we're going to bomb your town - get out of your homes now." - are you going to feel any better about them blowing your home to pieces?

You can understand why many Lebanese (especially the older ones) might be more hesitant to leave their properties. They remember what happened to the property of Palestinians who left during the 1948 war - it was seized and declared as abandoned by the Israeli government. I'm sure you know how incredibly important land is in that part of the world - and then you could see why people might not want to leave?

Also at issue are the exact targets Israel is hitting. Why go after the UN outpost? Why go after Christian towns in Lebanon? Hizbollah is not hiding there. This is one thing I truly do not understand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WagnerX5
Zero, you keep trying to justify it by percentage which when it comes to killing civilians via terrorist tactics by a 'group' of individuals is insane IMO.

My question is where are the other millions up in arms about what the others are doing? Nowhere to be found.
Quicksilver
Your original argument seemed to be that it was okay to classify all Muslims as terrorists. I was just pointing out that that's a crude stereotype. A small segment of the Muslim population engages in terrorist activities - you can't classify the entire community by those actions.

Now, I know your response was - well, where's the Muslim outcry? First of all, keep in mind that their has been significant Muslim support - some of it behind the scenes. For example, after September 11th, one of the biggest groups to offer free help to US law authorities with translation and other services were Arab-Americans.

But I think you want public outcry, right? On this point I'm not sure, but I'd be pretty confident in saying that the reason there hasn't been as much as you want has to do with Arabic culture. Let me offer an analogy, and hopefully that'll help me explain what I'm trying to explain.

Let's say you have a family member that commits a horrific crime - rape, or child molestation, or anything else (hypothetical here - I don't mean to offend). Now, would you report them to the authorities if you knew of their activities?

I think most of us in the Western world would, despite any reservations we have about familial ties. This is where our culture differs from Arabic culture. In an Arabic society, that family member would probably not get reported - and its not because the family supports what that individual member did. Rather, its just the emphasis Arabic culture places on family - its the core self-identifier for much of the Arabic world. There, the problem would be dealt with in-house, possibly with much more severe consequences than if the authorities were involved. The mindset is just different - the saying about airing dirty laundry would apply here.

I think some of the Muslim umma (community) feels the same about involving "outsiders" such as the US and other Western powers in the affairs of Muslims and Islamic states. Certainly, there are "Muslims" that are terrorists (ignoring the fact that much of what they do violates the Quran). But I think there's a greater percentage of Muslims that disagree but want the problem taken care of in-house. And of those Muslims who do support the terrorism (but aren't terrorists themselves), much of it goes back to education and the economics that Eric talks about below. I don't think bombing these communities is the best way to communicate a message of mutual peaceful coexistence. If we can address the economics needs, and work to educate those that do support terrorism, we'll have a harder solution, but a more lasting one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric5273
Not true at all....

I saw an Israeli interviewed on Fox News yesterday who said "for each Jew that they kill, we should kill at least one thousand or maybe even ten thousand of them".

Also, have you heard of the JDL?? A few years ago one of their leaders said "One million Arab lives are not worth a Jewish fingernail" during a radio interview. These are the same ones who attempted to bomb the office of a Muslim congressman. Do you claim that they were acting in self defense?

The major difference here is that the majority of Jews do not support these extremists, while the majorty of Muslims do. Now why do you think that is the case?

If you look at history, you find that extremist groups only become popular when living conditions are bad for the majority of the population. When people become desperate, they support extremism.

You can look at every example of extremism in history from the Nazis in Germany to the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia to the Taliban in Afghanstin, to groups like Hamas and Hezbollah, and what you find is deplorable living conditions and mass povery in all cases is what lead to these groups rising to power.

You will never get rid of the extremists. They will always exist in some form. But if living conditions in the Middle East for all people were good, groups like Hezbollah and Hamas would have the popularity of American groups like the KKK and the Arian Army -- they would become insignificant.

Instead, the current war is going to push people more into poverty and living conditions will become worse, and what will result is even stronger support for the extremists among the population. The best thing you can do to help an extremist group is to attack them and kill civilians in the process.
I disagree with the bolded part, but your point about economics is a really good one. I don't think it can never be fixed though - if relative depravation can be acheived, and the poverty of the Palestinian people can be ameliorated, we'll have a hope for peace.
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