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Old 01-02-2013, 07:24 AM
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TerminatorX5 TerminatorX5 is offline
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Originally Posted by PersonaNonGrata View Post
Thank you. I think I make a lot of sense.

New Orleans was reputed to have the most corrupt police department in the country. There is plenty of video to who NOPD's "finest" helping themselves to goods and the worst was those officers who murdered civilians and tried to cover it up but they got caught and convicted.

I am in a job where I am sworn to uphold the law and defend the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic. I mention this because I think it bears on my point of view, for better or worse. I believe in the law and uphold it. I agree that in an ideal society everyone is afforded due process and no one has lethal weapons, and everyone makes the right decisions but that is simply not reality. I think your premise is flawed in assuming that the bad guys, or culprits, care about the same things you want us to care about. Specifically, you want people acting in self defense to give the culprit the chance to stand trial and face due process of law instead of being shot and killed in the street. I have to say that is far too generous a view given that same culprit and other culprits like him don't give a rats behind about his victims, or due process. What you propose is that law abiding citizens would refrain from self-defense and instead submit themselves to the whims of criminals who have no regard for laws much less the rights of their victims. A harsh view? Yes but that is the world we live in. Every single minute of every single day, criminals take from victims in any way they can even if that means with force and violence. They enter our homes and businesses and are willing to use deadly force to get their way.

Now you might ask "what if the citizen makes a mistake". Well, that can happen and does rarely and there is recourse for that. Invalid or imperfect self-defense can result in a manslaughter conviction. On the other hand, if the citizen is not allowed any sort of self-defense the result for him could be death.

The idea of less than lethal options is a nice ideal but not realistic and subjects those who rely on them to a false sense of security. We all know how ineffective pepper spray can be and tasers are not foolproof either. I submit that a citizen who uses pepper spray unsuccessfully is at substantially greater risk of death or great bodily injury. The reality is that some situations require lethal force. If the criminal is armed, is larger or stronger than the victim, or several other factors, the only effective response is lethal force. Don't bring pepper spray to a gunfight. I truly believe an assailant is intending to cause death or great bodily harm to me or my loved ones, I will respond with lethal force, not to kill but to stop the threat. I say lethal force because the force that the assailant is to apply is also lethal.
this is the law of jungle - he, who has the bigger claw, survives... this is not the law of society... the criminal has the luxury of the first strike, the society has the luxury of the law - it is better to let go ten guilty ones, then to convict one innocent one, or whatever that saying says...

I agree with you on the personal level, eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth (gee, my dentist probably be dead over and over now!!!). but I can not bring myself down to the level of an animal, that the criminal is, just to satisfy the need to lynch... I do not deny the right for the self-defense, it is one of the basic rights, but I can not become a wild animal...

It is the same, as acting like Robert Bales, and killing the afghani civilians... chances are, half of those civilians were peasants by the day and cold blood killers by the night, but we can't be the same... this is the whole idea of civilized society, that we are NOT blood thirsty mob with pitchforks and torches, that lynches the "criminals" on sight. This is the whole notion that the forefathers are trying to instill into us, that everyone deserves due process.
Again, I am a human too, and I am subject to emotions, and my first reaction is to shoot the MF on scene... But we can not teach others on how to be, if we can't behave ourselves... One of our engineers shot two intruders in his house around Thanksgiving (Minnesota homeowner shot two teenagers dead in cold blood in his basement 'because he feared they had a weapon' - NY Daily News), and i understand what he had done, those kids were NOT supposed to be in his house uninvited... but if he would have used an non-lethal force, those kids would be standing trial... Granted, the judicial system is seriously flawed, but that would a subject of a new thread. we still can not take the law into our hands - otherwise we will plunge into the dark ages...
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