2002 x5 3.0i CCV issue?

[terminx]

Originally Posted by trader4

OMG. When I say anything like the above, I'm told that I have a negative
attitude, the adjective "crappy" is not allowed, BMW is God and it must be how I drive.

Haha, really? That's ridiculous. Anyone who knows fuck all about these engines knows that the water pump, coolant expansion tank and the entire CCV system are probably the Achilles' heel of the M52TU and M54.

They're solid engines, but anyone who owns one should be ready for anything made out of German plastic that's more than a few years old to break at any time. This actually applies to any German make and model. Some kind of environmental regulation over there requires plastics be of a certain composition that happens to get very, very brittle as it ages. It's the cause of many of our common problems... window regulators, broken IKHA buttons, broken cluster adjustment stalks (on the E46 at least), blown up CCV spraying oil all over your engine bay, etc. You could probably improve the durability of a lot of that stuff by just making it in Japan. Uh oh, here come the haters!

I haven't had my E53 long, but I've owned a few E46s. Do you know if the E53 3.0 has the same issue with exploding cooling fans as the E46? On the E46, there isn't enough clearance between the primary cooling fan and the radiator, so when the motor mounts fail the engine sags enough that the fins on the fan begin clipping the rad, sometimes blowing up so bad that you get fan blades through the hood. Does that happen here too?

[Ricky Bobby]

^I have not heard of any fan blade explosions on the M54 here in the 4 or so years I've been here - Agreed with you on the plastic parts made in the EU though, you're right its something about the recycled content of them that makes them not age as well

[jfoj]

Plastics and rubber do not last forever. In the environment under the hood, 8-10 years is pretty typical.

The problem with the BMW and other German cars has a lot to do with a packed engine compartment with no airflow, lower engine covers and catalytic converters integrated into the exhaust manifold rather than being under the cabin.

When the vehicle is shut down the under hood heat soak is crazy high on these cars. The E53/E39 might be slightly better than the E46, but just open the hood and see if you can see the ground or any open space. The I6 laying over on its side with the dual overhead cam head really fills the engine bay.

Many other imports use V6 rather than I6 engines and there tends to be a lot more free air in the engine compartments.

[bcredliner]

Originally Posted by trader4

That's interesting. You have a 13 year old X5, presumably with plenty of miles
and you actually think it's good practice to never have touched the CCV system?
Even the simple, far less problematic conventional PCV systems on most cars
have the PCV valves replaced as part of routine maintenance. And they don't
have the possible catastrophic failure modes either. Not only is there the
oil separator, but there are 5 hoses which are plastic and most of them
run right across the top of the cylinder head. The plastic gets brittle and
cracks. Especially odd given the penchant here for people to do all kinds
of far more optional preemptive service procedures and the many posts
here about CCV problems.

And off you go AGAIN!

I said nothing about not overhauling the system. I suggested doing some troubleshooting first.

I made no mention about good or bad practice. All I said was that is what I have done and the system is still working fine. (FYI-at 115,000+miles)

X5Alpine has decided to rebuild the system which is a good plan. But not doing so IMO would not have been the equivalent of lighting a stick of dynamite under the engine.

Neither of us have any idea as to the extent of CCV problems. From what I have read here, which is VERY small sampling of the X5s on the planet, the serious problems related to CCV systems are primarily in very cold country or associated with only driving short distances.

I have always been very sensitive to any changes in engine or drivetrain performance and at least once a month I am checking for any evidence of problems about to happen.

My opinion based on personal performance history of the CCV system is just as valid as yours, unless of course, if the issues you are referencing are not your personal experience. If that is the cause it is more of your negative rhetoric that you search out opportunities to spew.

[terminx]

It's not just the plastics exposed to the crazy heating and cooling cycles that have this problem, though. That's why I mentioned the IKHA buttons and cluster stalks specifically. Another good example of the interior plastics becoming very brittle is the window regulators and the clips that actually hold the windows to them, or the clips that hold the door cards on, or the pieces of the moon roof that break, etc.

The ones in the engine bay that are exposed to the heat are definitely worse off though, I agree 100% there.

[Joshdub]

Originally Posted by terminx

Haha, really? That's ridiculous. Anyone who knows fuck all about these engines knows that the water pump, coolant expansion tank and the entire CCV system are probably the Achilles' heel of the M52TU and M54.

They're solid engines, but anyone who owns one should be ready for anything made out of German plastic that's more than a few years old to break at any time. This actually applies to any German make and model. Some kind of environmental regulation over there requires plastics be of a certain composition that happens to get very, very brittle as it ages. It's the cause of many of our common problems... window regulators, broken IKHA buttons, broken cluster adjustment stalks (on the E46 at least), blown up CCV spraying oil all over your engine bay, etc. You could probably improve the durability of a lot of that stuff by just making it in Japan. Uh oh, here come the haters!

I haven't had my E53 long, but I've owned a few E46s. Do you know if the E53 3.0 has the same issue with exploding cooling fans as the E46? On the E46, there isn't enough clearance between the primary cooling fan and the radiator, so when the motor mounts fail the engine sags enough that the fins on the fan begin clipping the rad, sometimes blowing up so bad that you get fan blades through the hood. Does that happen here too?

Please don't get him started. All he does is bitch. Regardless of the thread topic he'll come in complaining about how everyone is out to get him and his window regulators.

[bcredliner]

Originally Posted by terminx

Not even BMW thinks the design is fine anymore, hence the design changes to the OEM CCV parts in later years and the fact that such systems were ditched after the M54 in favor of something more reliable.

The stock CCV design is horrible. Any system that can fail out of nowhere to the point of hydrolocking your engine with oil, yet is placed in such an inconvenient location as to prevent it from really being routine maintenance, is awful. It's too complicated of a system for such a simple, necessary function. I would have rather had a catch can to empty during oil changes than deal with this craptastic CCV system.

The problem is compounded by how often the M54 thermostat silently fails in the open position, preventing the engine from ever really reaching operating temperature.

Has your engine been destroyed by a CCV system so you know whether or not it fell out of nowhere or there were symptoms that went unnoticed or there wasn't something unrelated to the CCV system that caused the CCV failure?Since designs are changed all the time, how do you know the CCV design change had anything to do with any shortcoming of the previous design. Could it have been because of new technology or different requirements? Do you know that thermostats normally fail open so that's not unique to BMW?

[jfoj]

The M52/M54 CCV systems do not fail out of nowhere. Mater of fact they do not "fail" and cause the engine to hydrolock.

What happens is on some cars, depending on how they are maintained (or lack of being maintained), how they are driven, in what climate they are driven and if the thermostat has gone soft the Mayo can build up inside the actually CCV valve and some of the hoses and then the Mayo can and will freeze. In most cases the freezing of the Mayo does not damage the CCV or the hoses, but it can cause the valve cover or valve cover gasket to fail in extreme cases. But by the time the CCV freezes it is usually about time to replace it anyway. But in some cases people have had CCV freeze ups on systems that were only months old.

When the Mayo freezes inside the CCV system a few things can happen. The CCV valve will not regulate the engine vacuum and venting correctly and crankcase pressure builds ups and will force oil up the dipstick tube it can be sucked directly into the intake. In some cases the dipstick will pop out due to pressure build up and you will have a mini volcano under the hood and the valve cover gasket can be blown and in some cases the valve cover can actually be cracked.

Some of the V8 engines also have some problems as well, not sure they are as bad as the I6, but I know BMW offers a heated and insulated CCV hose kit for some of the V8's.

The thermostats do not usually "fail" open, they can, but almost every thermostat I have investigated and analyzed had a weak main spring that causes the thermostat to loose its preload and it just opens too early. This can cause the engine temperature to operate too low and this is usually not a problem until the ambient temperatures drop below 70F. With the temperature gauge being buffered in these vehicles the low engine temperature goes unnoticed for some time. The temp gauge stays at the 12 O'clock position over about a 50F range. It is not until deep into the Winter that people may start to notice the temp gauge is not at the 12 O'clock position.

Overall proper engine oil change intervals for how the car is driven can and is essential. Not every vehicle in every climate and ever driving pattern can have the oil change interval at ever 15k miles. BMW should have had a different algorithm other then fuel usage to determine the OCI. They should have taken into account average ambient temp, average engine temp, average MHP and so forth. BUT this would have required Marketings approval and sign off.

The CCV system really comes down to M&M, Maintenance and Management. The problem is people do not open their hood, check their oil, check under the oil fill cap, monitor the engine coolant temperature or pay attention to how long the vehicle has been driven.

Regardless of how large the oil sump is, the oil can become prematurely contaminated if the engine oil never reaches and stays at a solid operating temperature for boil/cook off moisture and fuel in the crankcase. With a 8-9 quart oil fill capacity, it can and will take 2-4 times longer for the engine oil to come up to operating temperature than the engine coolant. If the thermostat is soft, you may never get the oil up to temperature unless you take some very long continuous drives and even then the oil may be just on the edge of reaching the proper temperature to "cook" off contaminates.

We see more problems with frozen CCV systems in the Northern part of the US and in Canada during the Winter. The common denominator with most of the failures is a combination of soft thermostats and short commutes. Many in Canada live close to work and often walk or ride a bicycle or public transportation the 3-6 miles to work, but then the hard Winter sets in many may choose to drive. But this is really a BAD thing for any vehicle, much less a BMW with a 8-9 quart oil sump, a soft thermostat and a CCV system that can freeze.

Anyone that pays attention to what is going on with their vehicle can easily avoided if the oil is changed in the Fall, the thermostat is verified to be good by monitoring the engine operating temperature and to check the underside of the oil fill cap once a week.

Some may not think this is the way people need to operate a vehicle, but there are many engines, BMW and otherwise, that are ruined or severely damaged or just sludged up because of how the vehicle is used and under maintained.

[x5Alpine]

The BMW brand is the most reliable brand that I or my family have ever owned. If you complain about the little issues these cars have because of lack of preventative maintenance then I suggest you go take a look at ANY Chrysler made product. You'll be guaranteed to throw a rod or two and drop a transmission and watch it skip down the highway. Chrysler products are truly absolute garbage so in the end I can put up with a cooling system and other minor easy fixes here and there. This is my 3rd BMW and second X5 and both have been dead reliable from day one because I take care of them. My current 02 E39 M5 has been bullet proof as well.

[jfoj]

Originally Posted by x5Alpine

The BMW brand is the most reliable brand that I or my family have ever owned. If you complain about the little issues these cars have because of lack of preventative maintenance then I suggest you go take a look at ANY Chrysler made product. You'll be guaranteed to throw a rod or two and drop a transmission and watch it skip down the highway. Chrysler products are truly absolute garbage so in the end I can put up with a cooling system and other minor easy fixes here and there. This is my 3rd BMW and second X5 and both have been dead reliable from day one because I take care of them. My current 02 E39 M5 has been bullet proof as well.

The E39 M5 is probably the best BMW of that era, except for the suspension busing issues and a few other annoyances, if you drive the E39 M5 normally is is probably one of the more reliable BMW's.

If you run the engine to redline every other block, like anything it will not last, but this would be a self induced failure.