2002 x5 3.0i CCV issue?

[x5Alpine]

I've had every part down to the sub frame bushings replaced in my suspension. The car is truly immaculate. It has 108,000 miles on it and lets just say no freeway onramp is wasted with the M5. I don't abuse it but I do drive it spiritedly. I change the oil in it every 4,000 miles and it runs like a top. Planning on having the rod bearings replaced soon however as preventative. I bought this guy's M5 when he traded it in at BMW of SF Some Sterling Gray M5 goodness... ! - BMW M5 Forum and M6 Forums

[Roman D]

Nice article, guessing that in part , this is one of the reasons how NY cabbies reach 300K mile marks on 4 cylider toyotas. I, personally, would not/did not challenge the design of the CCV system itself, I mean whatever it is - it could always be made better and better and better and so on. Stop should be made once it is good enough. On other hand placement of it is simply idiotic, as you said and I agree that severity of CCV issue is combination of few factors including maintenance or absence of such. Well... if this unit is part normal maintenance practice, and should be periodically replaced (not should be but must be given that tubes are made out of cheesy plastic that dries up and cracks) what kind of idiot would shovel it where it is? There is plenty of room for that unit in outer side for electric distribution box (the one where bunch of sensors connected to) Should I have to touch that thing again, I will make a custom brackets, tubes and place it outside, may be even add an oil catch can. From technical point of view - you make a lot of sense but people carry on with their lives based on requirements of.... Well... their lifes and can't/won't run it around "many short trips are not good for your bimmer". Even, lets say , someone agrees to follow and takes the car to a mechanic, what is the normal time charge for CCV replacement? Same as OFHG, I was quoted $400 to replace $20 gasket - I'd curse the designer out and most likely he so deserve it, may be even a punch in the face but lets be politically correct and say that it is simply sad.

[jfoj]

One of the reasons the CCV is buried where it is to hopefully keep it warmer, they even have insulated "cold weather" CCV valves and hoses. I use these when I replace the CCV and hoses.

You can typically get 10-12 years out of the CCV system. I prefer to replace mine along with intake boots, valve cover gasket, OFHG, fuel pump and filter and pretty much any headache part by year 8. This way I rarely, if ever, have unexpected repairs. The deal is these repairs WILL need to be performed, I prefer to do them on my schedule and not the cars schedule.

Its not just BMW's that need to be driven in the cold weather for longer distances, but your average I4 or V6 engine in a Japanese or American car has a 4-5 quart oil sump, the BMW's tend to have 7-9 quart sumps depending on the engine and vehicle model. Driving any car in the Winter temps short distances can and will be catastrophic.

I recall MANY years ago like in the in 1979-1980 a car was towed into the shop in the Winter that was a no start. A full size late 70's GM, probably a Buick or Pontiac owned by an elderly woman that did not drive far. After a lot of head scratching and attempts to get the engine started, we finally figured out the muffler was filled with condensation and frozen. Layers of condensation built up in the muffler because the car was driving for only very short trips and finally the exhaust was fully restricted and the engine either would not start or start and die quickly with no power.

I have seen it all at one point or another. The BMW CCV system works when it is clean and maintained, it needs to be replaced like most other CCV/PCV systems in other vehicles and you change it probably once in your ownership of the vehicle.

For anyone that does not want to deal with vehicle repairs. Lease a car, it may still have problems, but it will be under warranty for the entire lease in most cases and you will not have the car typically past year 3.

Simple solution, replace the vehicle every 3 years and do not pay for repairs. Just keep the annual mileage under the max allowable otherwise it will cost you plenty at the end of the Lease.

[jfoj]

Trader4 you offer no useful information for anybody's questions. I have dealt with your kind many times before. You are the customer that I toss out of my shop and tell you to never return. I do not want or need the headaches that would accompany your business.

I have seen MANY kinds of CCV failures over the years by know exactly what happens in the hydrolocking cases, every one I have seen have been in the Winter time with below freezing temps. Can a CCV fail in Houston TX and cause a hydrolock situation, possibly, but I do not live in Houston and anyone I have interacted with that has had problems typically lived in the upper half of the US and/or Canada.

All you want to do is argue and you have NO IDEA what you are talking about the majority of the time.

You are obviously have no interest in learning anything or listening to any other opinion or fact.

You want to take very word someone puts out as 100% literal so you can ARGUE and COMPLAIN.

Too bad you have not found a way to be financially successful with your arguments and complaints as you would not be spending any time here or whining about your other other peoples BMW.

You seem far more experienced with arguing, whining and complaining then actually resolving and repairing problems!

[x5Alpine]

I work at a BMW dealership in service and see the kind all day long. They piss and moan about how their car broke and how expensive it it to get fixed. Fix the car and its done with! It's a mechanical object and things WILL break/fail except a chrysler product, they just flat out explode and kill all of the occupants

[jfoj]

Originally Posted by trader4

I suggest you look at an independent rating source, eg JD Powers that
actually conducts surveys, collects real data and see what they say.

The majority of the ratings are for initial delivery and quality, not long term experience and reliability. There may be some surveys that cover longer term ownership, but I would have to take some of this with a grain of salt.

Few surveys are beyond the Warranty period.

Dealers can and DO influence the ratings at times and can skew the results to some extent, even for J.D. Power/CSI, I have seen this first hand.

Working in the trenches on a daily basis will allow someone to get a good idea as to what is really going on. Surveys are surveys and are not always a true indicator of the real world experience.

I know all about CSI (Customer Service Index). I many years ago worked for an automotive manufacturer. In my District I had a dealer with a 46 CSI and I had the one dealer that had a low 90's CSI, however, that dealer had the most impact overall to the manufacturers entire CSI rating for the for the brand based on their volume.

So I have seen and lived some of this first hand. I also had dealers that sold and serviced other brands and was able to see from the inside how other manufacturers quality and service support compared to the manufacturer I represented.

Things are not always as they seem from the other side.

I still have friends that work for manufacturers to this day and I still get a lot of inside scoop as to what is going on every day behind the scene.

Just because some end users think things are garbage does not always reflect reality.

[jfoj]

Trader4 you are downright SCUM.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Doubt you have every worked in the industry, earned a living repairing vehicles, been ASE Certified, Trained in Automotive Technology.

Again, you typically OFFER NO USEFUL information for any members on this board.

[bcredliner]

Originally Posted by trader4

So, you've done forensic engineering analysis to determine the root cause
of the hydrolocking? I think not. You don't know the exact sequence
of events. It certainly seems if the CCV can fail from mayo resulting in
the valve sucking oil into the engine that it could also fail on it's own,
without the mayo. You've never seen a valve, of any type fail, without
regard to mayo? But regardless, whether it
fails directly through a mechanical defect, which certainly seems possible,
or through mayo build-up, it's a fact that they can hydrolock, as shown in the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZGUk6w_y6A

No one has said oil hasn't locked up an engine. What is being said is that there are particular circumstances that for the most part are due to a cold climate and the owner is a contributor.

I've never seen another crankcase ventilation design, ie ones that use
a PCV valve that can do that. Further, even BMW acknowledges that they
screwed up on this, otherwise they would not have retrofit dip tubes.
That original concentric passage dip stick tube had very narrow passages.
Apparently BMW thinks you can take oil with moisture in it, send it outside
the engine in cold temps (yes BMW, not everyone lives in FL) and nothing
will clog up. You ever see the need for heated and insulated hoses
(another BMW retrofit) in a PCV system before?

Not sure but wasn't what you call a retrofit a cold weather kit. I don't remember a recall. Anyone know when it was introduced? Just because I have not seen or heard of something happening doesn't mean my knowledge is sufficient to draw any conclusion.

"Anyone that pays attention to what is going on with their vehicle can easily avoided if the oil is changed in the Fall, the thermostat is verified to be good by monitoring the engine operating temperature and to check the underside of the oil fill cap once a week."

Baloney. Plenty of people here with plenty of problems that have nothing
to do with not changing the oil or a bad thermostat. BTW, BMW said the
oil change interval was 15K, not me.

Do you recall if that 'plenty' of people here were 'plenty of people from there? (cold country). I think they were. We always need to bear in mind plenty of people here is an extremely small representation of the E53s out there and it only comes up here when someone has a problem. That person has a problem and is asking for help. There is no reason for any of us that have not had a problem to post that information. That doesn't serve any purpose, not at all helpful to someone that has a problem. It is easy to assume that because there is no mention to the contrary it is a huge problem when it is a world away from something that is destined to happen to everyone and draw the conclusion it is a poor design.

Short commutes? Have yet to see other cars sucking oil because of short
commutes. This is 2015, how long has BMW been building cars?

It's a real problem to the point that there are threads here were people
have re-engineered the thing, gotten rid of the oil separator, and gone
to a conventional PCV design. And I say it's not because they aren't
driving their cars right, neglecting maintenance, or neglecting oil
changes.
I can't draw any conclusion from those that have done the catch can thing because there are so many that haven't and haven't had a problem. Have you personally had a problem?
I also pointed out to you in another thread, that this unique closed
crankcase, where no outside air is admitted, allows for higher moisture
levels in the crankcase. A conventional PCV type design constantly
draws fresh outside air through the crankcase which will lessen the amount
of moisture. The BMW design does not.

Why do you believe air from the outside which has moisture content of it's own results in less moisture in the crankcase? I am certain there are some things that I believe are facts that are not. We always need to be politely open to other information.

By the way I know by referring to an open thermostat you meant it failed in a position that did not allow the oil to get to a temp that would remove the moisture.

If you want to be respected by members of the forum take an objective look at the posts you have made here as if someone else is Trader4 and you are on the receiving end. I believe if you do you will see why you get trashed so much. I used to get irritated but it has happened so many times now there is a kind of sadness that you are so destructive to your reputation and yourself and compromise the worth and enjoyment of the forum.

[x5Alpine]

JD power is just the initial survey. Reliability score can be hurt by simply someone complaining that the door locks are difficult to use and say they "don't work". Heck, Land Rover was placed two spots higher than dodge or Chrysler this year. And I didn't mean for this thread to get a bit nasty I just wanted other's insight on what exactly to go fourth and do. I appreciate all of your responses for the most part.

[jfoj]

First we seem to have a problem like a bad rash that just gets worse when it is scratched!

Trader4, again, you are not offering any useful information for this specific thread or for the OP, you are also adding things from other threads into this one and only confusing matters for anyone that is tying to learn and either fix a problem or understand what is going on with their vehicle. Since you DESPERATELY want to continue on about how smart you are with science but do not understand how things are implemented in the real world, I will deal with this as needed, in the appropriate threads and not cross contaminate the forum like you seem to be doing.

Nobody here wants a science lesson because it is not pertinent to getting their cars fixed. The cars were designed years ago in some far off land and we have what we have at this point in time. Even the manufacturers do not do enough to plan for what happens 5-10 years out when parts wear, fail, break and degrade.

Here example where you typically choose to get derailed.

My quote:

Originally Posted by jfoj

Sorry to tell you, the Mayo will never go away. Water vapor is a by product of combustion and the crankcase is drawing outside air with moisture in constantly.

Again, specifically for you, I probably should have written another 2-3 paragraphs qualifying my response, but I am not responding to you or trying to help you with a problem. Most NORMAL and RATIONAL people would maybe ask a few questions if they did not understand or agree with a statement or comment. They might say something like "are you sure this is how the system may work?" or "it is not my understanding how the system works, could you explain further?". But you go at me or anyone else with both barrels blazing making a personal attack about every single word anyone types. Rather than attempting to understand some other point of view you try to make a scientific argument when at the end of the day since you misunderstand how many things are implemented on these cars you fail to see the other side of things and why there are other points of view.

So let me explain or clarify what I was attempting to say. These engines and crankcases are not 100% tight, in theory, this is maybe what the manufacturer planned or expected, but in reality this is rarely the case. After a few years every single seal, hose, gasket, O-ring likely will start to leak to some degree. The majority of these engine that have the originally CCV system after 8-10 years WILL have a leaking CCV oil return line that will constantly draw outside air into the crankcase even if this is not part of the original design. Additionally since the crankcase should be under a constant Vacuum or a lower pressure than the atmosphere, every time the engine is turned off, the crankcase will need to equalize and outside air with varying levels of humidity will be pulled into the crankcase during the equalization process.

But I am sure you will have some scientific reason this will never happen, but you will also never opened the hood to verify any of this. This just appears to be your general personality. Maybe this all stems form bad childhood experience, who knows!

But in general, I think your statement below pretty much sums up your general overall attitude.

Originally Posted by trader4

As to being respected or not, I really don't care. If some people don't have a respect for science, how cars really work, can't stand the truth, it's not my problem. It's odd how the comments about respect are directed to me and not to the poster that just called me "scum".

This is why you are so abrasive and annoying online and probably are no different face to face. I called you "scum" because in my opinion you are, I figured you out before you even made the above statement.

You are abrasive, condescending, annoying, confrontational to me and others on this forum. Assuming you frequent other forums, I assume the situation is about the same. You are a borderline stalker because you continue to bring other thread topic information across into other threads. You pollute threads with your Jimmy Nuetron boy genius pocket protector point of view. When things are BROKEN and WORN OUT they do not always function as designed. This is how the world is and clearly something you choose not to understand.

You never want to have a reasonable discussion and actually test or verify anything other than toss out formulas, YouTube videos and so forth.

I am not looking for your approval as I do not need it. I attempted to help out a number of forum members and set the record straight on some misunderstanding/misinformation. You have NO dog in the fight and not only you, but a few other members seem to get the attitude that this is not my neighborhood, it is yours and I should leave. Rather then being open minded to a different point of view, I am confronted in a less than welcoming way.

Sorry to say, I am not going anywhere, I will continue to provide assistance to forum members and correct people where it is needed on this forum and others. It is just so sad that people like you make it so difficult and frustrating for new members to get the help and answers they are seeking. I am sure there are others that have been run off due to the BAD behavior that seems to be a common denominator among a few members.

Hopefully the OP had his questions answered and had a resolution or idea about how he plans on moving forward. Hopefully anyone else that searches and finds this thread will get some useful information. As I mentioned the BULK of people coming to forums want to fix their cars, not get some science lesson from someone that cannot explain how to fix their car.

I am finished responding to you in this thread, I probably should not have even bothered because I am just coming down to your level. Sorry this has turned into the S**T SHOW that is has come to.