M62 Cam timing graph

CapeX5 · #1 02-17-2016, 02:37 PM

Took a video of my cam timing with my Creador 310. I am having issues with the engine(you can probably hear them in the background) and am trying to diagnose. Just so I don't waste anyones time, the guides, chains, etc have all been replaced. Still have this noise. I have theories, but am curious what you guys think of the information with the graphing. Of course the Creador doesn't come with any manuals, so not sure what the numbers on the graph represent, but we could deduce some other things when you watch. Thanks
https://youtu.be/_EnLj_-A7jE

Helihover · #2 02-17-2016, 03:35 PM

In the video, I hear metal banging against metal. This is not good! The engine seriously sounds like a junk engine. If I were in your shoes and needed to keep the engine, I would disassemble everything I took apart and inspect for the procedure missed. If keeping the engine, I would also advise against starting it anymore.

But that's just me based on the vid knowing nothing else except for the fact that you had the whole front of the engine apart.

Helihover · #3 02-17-2016, 03:38 PM

Have you done a compression test?

Spanker · #4 02-17-2016, 04:26 PM

Sounds like a valve contacting a piston to me. Check manifold pressure. If it is not steady......valve problem. The interval of the noise is definitely valve train related

Helihover · #5 02-17-2016, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spanker

Sounds like a valve contacting a piston to me. Check manifold pressure. If it is not steady......valve problem. The interval of the noise is definitely valve train related

I'm thinking the same exact thing.

CapeX5 · #6 02-17-2016, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helihover

I'm thinking the same exact thing.

I had not considered manifold pressure. I will do that, thanks. Where would I tap into for that and what numbers should I be looking for?

Spanker · #7 02-17-2016, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CapeX5

I had not considered manifold pressure. I will do that, thanks. Where would I tap into for that and what numbers should I be looking for?

You can tap from the back of the intake manifold (on CCV). I also believe there is another tap on the right side of the throttle blade.

You would look for a wildly fluctuating reading rather than a smooth one.

Here is another trick. Take a long screw driver and place the tip on top of the metal portion of Bank 2 valve cover...... place your ear on the end of the screw driver and listen for the origin of the sound. Listen in the vicinity of each cylinder. If it is the valves, you will absolutely hear it loudly in that area.

Check the for ECM error codes. Sometimes it can tell you if there is problem with vacuum. Not sure x5 has that kind of monitoring. My 2007 vette once broke a valve spring and the manifold pressure guage spoke to my computer and threw a related code.

I would check the oil and oil filter at this point for metal flakes....as someone just suggested.

CapeX5 · #8 02-18-2016, 10:46 AM

Thanks Spanker, would I actually be seeing "vacuum" in those spots as opposed to pressure? I guess if there is a problem, I would see spikes of pressure as the piston came up and there was no sealing with the valve. Thinking out loud there. Also, I have a mechanic stethoscope that I have used extensively on the engine. The problem is that the aluminum heads/valve covers etc all resonate and throw the noise all over the place. The common denominator is that it seems to be coming from the front of the bank 2 valve cover. There are no abrasion/wear marks anywhere on the valve or timing covers. The only other moving part right there is the VANOS and the chain/sprockets/tensioner for the exhaust cam. Those parts all seem good and I have replaced orings on the tensioner and the rubbing blocks. The tensioner is holding lots of oil and is very difficult to compress when I am dismantling to do the timing work. Again, I am back to the VANOS transmission. Parts arriving today, will be tearing it down again after the misc tests first.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spanker

You can tap from the back of the intake manifold (on CCV). I also believe there is another tap on the right side of the throttle blade.

You would look for a wildly fluctuating reading rather than a smooth one.

Here is another trick. Take a long screw driver and place the tip on top of the metal portion of Bank 2 valve cover...... place your ear on the end of the screw driver and listen for the origin of the sound. Listen in the vicinity of each cylinder. If it is the valves, you will absolutely hear it loudly in that area.

Check the for ECM error codes. Sometimes it can tell you if there is problem with vacuum. Not sure x5 has that kind of monitoring. My 2007 vette once broke a valve spring and the manifold pressure guage spoke to my computer and threw a related code.

I would check the oil and oil filter at this point for metal flakes....as someone just suggested.

Spanker · #9 02-17-2016, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CapeX5

Took a video of my cam timing with my Creador 310. I am having issues with the engine(you can probably hear them in the background) and am trying to diagnose. Just so I don't waste anyones time, the guides, chains, etc have all been replaced. Still have this noise. I have theories, but am curious what you guys think of the information with the graphing. Of course the Creador doesn't come with any manuals, so not sure what the numbers on the graph represent, but we could deduce some other things when you watch. Thanks
https://youtu.be/_EnLj_-A7jE

Give us a little more history. Did you have this noise PRIOR to changing the timing chain guide rails? Did the old guides break? When did the sound begin and what was the vehicle doing at the time (driving, dyno, etc?).

CapeX5 · #10 02-17-2016, 06:19 PM

Thanks for the replies guys. I didn't want to bore you with the ongoing saga of my problems with this engine. I bought this in Sept. It had that noise, maybe a little less when I bought it. I assumed that it was chain/guides and negotiated accordingly. I took it apart and the guides had all been done. I dug deeper, rebuilt the VANOS, changed out all lifters on bank 2, have checked clearance on lifters to cam lobes-its 0, measured cam lobes, replaced timing chain,checked oil pressure-60+lbs, etc etc. I have done compression and leak down. Had an issue on #5, but it was an electrical issue with the coil. Both numbers were down on #5 at that point. I need to do it again since I have repaired the wiring. Compression was around 140 and leak down was about 20%. Basically, that cylinder wasn't firing consistently and I had some carbon build up. Other than the noise, it runs really well. Not throwing any codes. I have had it apart 5 times trying to find the issue. What I have not done is replaced the 3 sealing rings on the intake cam. I have ordered those and will replace as soon as they arrive. Thinking that if the rings aren't doing there job, the transmission of the VANOS is just flopping around and clacking. It is driving me nuts, to say the least. Here is the video I posted a while ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFVVDnWbs00
I agree it is valve train related. It is so consistent. Trust me, I have looked everywhere for where this is coming from. I have consulted many mechanics/friends and no one seems to be able to pinpoint it. Happy to consider all opinions you folks have.