Beware! EBC Red Box experience

[Teutonaddict]

This thread is specifically about 4.6/4.8 applications, but may have relevance to all X5 owners considering EBC products.

I'll start off by saying that I have no fiscal interest in any mentioned manufacturers or vendors, other than as a paying customer. I've been replacing factory pads with low-dust aftermarket alternatives for the last eight years, on two E39's (540i/6 and M5) and an E38 740i Sport (ALL the same pads as 3.0 and 4.4 X5's, by the way!). Previously, I've used both Mintex Red Box and Axxis Deluxe Plus with great satisfaction.

My particular issue is with EBC's product for the unique '920' pad shape for the E53 4.6/4.8is fronts. It is manufactured with a casting on the fixed-side pad backer that is different from stock, which I missed when I removed the factory originals and compared them to the new EBC's. As such, this design defect causes the pad to face the rotor at an angle and suboptimizes braking performance. In my case, the pads melted/disintegrated in one week's time...

The other thing of grave concern to me is the conditions of the friction material after a typical bedding procedure and relatively normal around-town use since install. For a high performance compound, these pads look worse than any pad I EVER used on my M5--even for heavy track use! Now I know that poor alignment with the rotor must lead to differential thermal loads, but these puppies look like they've been nuked!

I followed the EBC instructions for 'bedding' from 40 MPH. Not being satisfied with the feel, I stepped their conservative process up to a more typical 65-->10 MPH series of applications, as described by DaveZ on zeckhausen.com. While inital bite felt a bit better, it never resumed a stock-like feel. I noticed uneven deposition radially on the rotor, so I removed the pads today to investigate.

Here's what I found:

[Teutonaddict]

You can see in the profile view how the pads wore (again, in a week's time!) at a slight angle. Not sure if you can see, however, how the steel backer actually bent into a concave shape as the pressure on those two cast nipples caused the caliper to exert uneven pressure on the pads.

Bottom line: these little darlings are going back to the seller or manufacturer. I still don't have an Axxis option due to the funky pad shape, but I may go the same route as f355b did: Porterfield R4-S fronts and Axxis Deluxe Plus in back.

Lesson learned: (1) stick with what works, or at least brands you know! (2) carefully inspect aftermarket pads prior to installation for ANY differences with factory equipment; do not assume that the aftermarket manufacturer has done this for you!!!

-Dave

[powers1]

Great stuff!Very informative post!
Those pads look like they caught fire!You could have warped your discs!
Interesting to see what EBC have to say about this?

If I was you,I would make them liable for new rotors as well !

[LVR]

Oh dear, I bet that comes as a shock!

A couple of questions, have you spoken to EBC's tech people?

Uneven pad wear (radial, longitudinal or in/out) such as what you have is usually the result of a poorly located (ie sticking) piston, or calipers that are not moving freely. It usually means failure of the pads due to exceeding the friction/temp curve by reducing the face (as if it was under spec'd).

Did you check/lubricate/clean these when you changed the pads?

Pushing a longitudinally or radially tapered brake pad against its rotor, a brake piston will "cock," moving off-centre in its bore in the caliper. Cocking creates a greater volume for fluid in the caliper which may explain your spongy pedal.

I have had my pads installed by an EBC supplier rather than DIY and have done significant miles without this sort of issue.....

I would be interested to hear their input when you return them.

[f355b]

WOW. I know people have differant views on what they like or dislike. I have used the Porterfield R4-S pads now on both the Ferrari and the 4.8 i have also used the stoptech s/s lines on both and love the set up. There are not many options for front 4.8 pads but my car feels really good and iam very happy so far.

[Teutonaddict]

Originally Posted by LVR

A couple of questions, have you spoken to EBC's tech people? I would be interested to hear their input when you return them.

Did you check/lubricate/clean these when you changed the pads?

(I arranged your questions together, LVR)

I've not as yet spoken to the EBC tech folks. I most certainly will update the board on what they say.

I indeed did check the pistons before and after install, and they were sliding smoothly. I cleaned the caliper pins as well.

This vehicle has less than 1500 miles on the clock, so all brake parts were quite clean.

Originally Posted by LVR

Uneven pad wear (radial, longitudinal or in/out) such as what you have is usually the result of a poorly located (ie sticking) piston, or calipers that are not moving freely. It usually means failure of the pads due to exceeding the friction/temp curve by reducing the face (as if it was under spec'd).

Pushing a longitudinally or radially tapered brake pad against its rotor, a brake piston will "cock," moving off-centre in its bore in the caliper. Cocking creates a greater volume for fluid in the caliper which may explain your spongy pedal.

I have had my pads installed by an EBC supplier rather than DIY and have done significant miles without this sort of issue.....

I agree with everything you said, with one rather large exception. While uneven pad wear radially USUALLY means a sticking piston or stuck calipers, in this case it was purely and simply BECAUSE OF THE PAD BACKER DESIGN.

LVR, if you take another look at the very first photo you should see a difference between the stock pad backer and the EBC model. The stock has two cast 'nipples' that are not touched by the caliper when installed, and the EBC part has FOUR. The two outer cast nipples on the EBC pads DO CONTACT THE CALIPER, and thus alter its alignment to the rotor. You may also note the lack of paint on the top of those two outer, superflous castings. That is from contact with the caliper.

THIS IS A DESIGN FLAW. Perhaps your EBC installer ground those off prior to install, but without altering the pad backer first, there is NO WAY these pads, as sold by EBC, will function properly.

This ain't about a botched DIY job. This is about sh!tty replication of a factory pad backer design.

[Teutonaddict]

Exchanged emails/voicemails with board sponsor and all-around-good-guy, Dave Zeckhausen, and the good news is that Axxis is finally coming out with a front pad for the 4.6/4.8 in the next few months. Yippee!

I put my factory original pads back on, and will wait for Axxis (PBR) Deluxe Plus to hit the market. I'll stick with what's worked for me; lesson learned.

Another observation: while the Red Stuff did dust less than stock, they dusted more than I experienced with Axxis D+ on prior cars. And one of those cars was a high mass, high HP M5 that I tended to operate at higher speeds, so I don't think the added heft of the X5 is necessarily the differentiator.

Still haven't spoken to EBC yet. I want to get my rears uninstalled before I make the call. Will update when I do.

[LVR]

I agree with everything you said, with one rather large exception. While uneven pad wear radially USUALLY means a sticking piston or stuck calipers, in this case it was purely and simply BECAUSE OF THE PAD BACKER DESIGN.

I have had a look at the installation of my pads..... they are sitting flat against the moving caliper and do not appear to have had anything ground off them.

As I am not taking them off to check, perhaps you can tell me if the caliper contact face is solid or recessed (ie is there a space for the nipples to sit in?)

I will speak with my installer about them and get his feedback on what the differences are.

Clearly my pads are fitted differently.....

Another observation: while the Red Stuff did dust less than stock, they dusted more than I experienced with Axxis D+ on prior cars. And one of those cars was a high mass, high HP M5 that I tended to operate at higher speeds, so I don't think the added heft of the X5 is necessarily the differentiator.

As I said in my original post when I found the pads, it takes a few weeks to settle down and the rears take longer. I would think you haven't had them on long enough because of your problems. Speed and mass on different cars don't produce the same results IMHO.

The other thing of grave concern to me is the conditions of the friction material after a typical bedding procedure and relatively normal around-town use since install. For a high performance compound, these pads look worse than any pad I EVER used on my M5--even for heavy track use!

There is nothing in those photos that wouldn't happen on another pad brand fitted like that. They are bent out of shape because the load is over the nipples, rather than the whole face. Your pads are obviously warped either by incorrect installation, incorrect type or as you say incorrect manufacturing.

I am sure the apologies will be volumnous from EBC if either of the last two are true......

[Teutonaddict]

Originally Posted by LVR

I have had a look at the installation of my pads..... they are sitting flat against the moving caliper and do not appear to have had anything ground off them.

As I am not taking them off to check, perhaps you can tell me if the caliper contact face is solid or recessed (ie is there a space for the nipples to sit in?).

Well, LVR, I too am not going to remove the pads to double-check, but whether the caliper contact face is solid or recessed is IRRELEVANT. The factory pads had NO OUTER CASTINGS. The EBC OE replacements DID. The non-original castings are what caused this problem. End of story.

The pictures (once again, especially the first ones) tell the story.

Originally Posted by LVR

As I said in my original post when I found the pads, it takes a few weeks to settle down and the rears take longer. I would think you haven't had them on long enough because of your problems.

Agreed. I cannot make any fair evaluation of the pad composition because of the misalignment problem. I agree that any pad likely would self-destruct given similar conditions. Point well taken.

Originally Posted by LVR

There is nothing in those photos that wouldn't happen on another pad brand fitted like that. They are bent out of shape because the load is over the nipples, rather than the whole face. Your pads are obviously warped either by incorrect installation, incorrect type or as you say incorrect manufacturing.

You really are persistent in your defense of EBC--and by extension your indictment of my installation, aren't you, LVR?

We can eliminate your middle option, as both front and rear boxes are clearly marked. The fronts are labeled 'E53 X5 4.6/4.8 2003-2005' and the rears are labeled E38/E46 rears (which also fit all E39 and E53 applications).

Once again, that leaves us with (1) my installation or (2) the pad backer design. Given the EBC pad backer includes castings that did not appear on the factory part, and those nipples caused the deflection and uneven contact shown above, I'll leave it for others with eyes to determine where the fault lies.

[LVR]

Oh come on......

I asked you a couple of questions about how the installations may vary as I have done the miles without trouble. I went and looked at my car because we have the same pads but different results....

Figure it out for yourself then

You really are persistent in your defense of EBC--and by extension your indictment of my installation, aren't you, LVR?

Not sure how you're able to draw this conclusion from my questions..... but then in this country we don't immediately blame someone else and talk lawsuits/compensation either. Otherwise we tend to look like a real goose if we're wrong.......

Let me draw your attention to some statements I made

a) have you spoken to them,
b) gave THREE possible reasons,
c) I stated that their apologies should be profuse to you once you speak to them,
d) I stated that I was interested to hear their input once you'd spoken to EBC,
e) recognised that ANY pad would fail under those conditions and
f) my pads are the same and I haven't a problem.

Finally, get on the phone to them and get to the bottom of it. If EBC are the cause of it then slag the brand for all their worth......

Until then, all the righteousness in the world won't change the fact that my installation works.....