Synthetic Oil Question

[cwilliams21]

I went to my local parts store to purchase synthetic oil for my oil change, and I got a question. While looking at the owners manual it calls for ONLY BMW synthetic oil. It states if you don't use BMW oil, use ONLY ACL/SH certified grade oil or higher. I was looking at Mobile1 and it said it was ACL/SR (or something like that). Logic tells me the SR is higher grade than SH. Is this what they're talking about here? I don't want to take a chance hosing my engine or voiding my warranty.

Thanks!

[JCL]

Originally Posted by cwilliams21

I went to my local parts store to purchase synthetic oil for my oil change, and I got a question. While looking at the owners manual it calls for ONLY BMW synthetic oil. It states if you don't use BMW oil, use ONLY ACL/SH certified grade oil or higher. I was looking at Mobile1 and it said it was ACL/SR (or something like that). Logic tells me the SR is higher grade than SH. Is this what they're talking about here? I don't want to take a chance hosing my engine or voiding my warranty.

Thanks!

The API labelling uses an S to indicate that the oil is primarily for gasoline engines. The second letter is a quality indicator, with standards becoming progressively tougher. For example, SJ is a higher standard than SH. The most recent API chart does not show SR, but it does show SL. A copy of the chart is here:
http://api-ep.api.org/filelibrary/Guidechart2002.pdf

You don't need to use anything better than your manual calls for to protect your warranty. Most oils indicate that they also meet the previous standards, which logically they should.

Jeff

[motordavid]

Great Link, JCL...thanks! And, CWilliams: you do Not have to use BMW brand oil. You can, it's good stuff, (made by Castrol), but you can use Any full syn that meets req's. BR,md

[JCL]

Motordavid:

Glad to help. What bugs me is that this is the 2002 chart, and they haven't put the latest chart on the public area of the API site. I would need to join to get access to the current document library. I don't know anything about classification SR, but it seems as if it may be the latest from the OP's post.

There is an interesting debate that happened on one of the new standards, specifically relating to BMW bikes. The specs are designed to be 'backwards compatible' which basically implies that if it meets the latest spec, it also meets the previous specs. However, BMW apparently stated that for their bikes, one of the newer specs was not permitted due to one particular item (I think it was potassium). Thus, they started a war with API over the issue of whether the higher grade was in fact permitted (and of course, the oil companies stop making the older grade some time after the newer grade comes out).

Where I worked years ago we sold SB and SC for umpteen years, so the rapid change in specs in the past few years indicates how much, and how quickly, oils are improving now.

One additional clarification for the OP as well: I agree that you can use any oil that meets BMW specs, but I am not clear that it has to be a full synthetic. There aren't different standards for oils from synthetic base stocks compared to oils from natural base stocks. If it meets the SH standard (or whatever is in the manual for your year of manufacture) you can use any oil. Many people like the full synthetics, but synthetic/natural blends, and natural base stocks, also meet the same specs. What a synthetic offers, IMO, is less variation in the base stock, it isn't inherently better. If there is a lube engineer here who knows differently, please chime in.

Jeff

[motordavid]

JCL: Yeah, it's an arm wrestle nightmare in the M'cycle oil department these days, lol! I ripped/pasted this from a decent M'cycle oil info site. W/the UJM brand mfg'ers wading in vis a vis JASO, it's enough to make your hair hurt. And, Honda, still sells boatloads of their non-syn and semi-syn blend oil at their pricey parts counter stlrships. A friend of mine had a lil' oiling prob. w/his 919 and the Honda Calif. engineer told him that Honda Does Not rec'd synthetics for that and many other sleds. WTF...I been stuffin' my 18 yr old Hurricane 1K and my 11 yr old GWing Aspencade w/"car" syn oil for years. I don't think it matters a wit in the end, with most sleds, other than reasonable frequency of oil/filter changes, eg Spring and Fall, unless one rides the hell out of a sled.

I agree w/you on the syn not necessary via rating; just assumed that poster was chasing syn. "Withidl", the oil maven, (and other stuff), poster should know the answer. Thanks again for that link.
BR,md

• SA through SG OBSOLETE -- Use SH unless you find motorcycle oil which still meets the SF/SG rating and your bike calls for that in the owner's manual.
• SH Technically obsolete. This oil specification is used by many motorcycle manufacturers, and you can still find SH rated (or dual-rated, as in they are rated SJ + SH) on the market.
• SJ Current. For 2001 and older automobile engines. Note that this standard reduces the phosphorus contents of the motor oil, which is not necessarily a desirable reduction for most motorcycle engines. Check your motorcycle owner's manual specifically for recommendation of an SJ rated motor oil before using it in your motorcycle, or stick to using a SH-rated or dual-rated (SH+SJ) motorcycle oils instead.
• SL Current. For all post 2001 automobile engines. Note that this standard reduces the ZDDP (zinc and phosphorus) additive contents of the motor oil, which is not a desirable reduction for most motorcycle engines. Check your motorcycle owner's manual specifically for recommendation of an SL rated motor oil before using it in your motorcycle! Do not use unless an SL rating is specifically called for.

JASO OIL RATING:
Unlike the API, which is an petroleum-specific institution, JASO is a consortium of major vehicle manufacturers in Japan. JASO stands for the Japanese Vehicle Manufacturers Organization. JASO rates oils for compatibility with their products (cars and motorcycles), and all the major Japanese motorcycle manufacturers (Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki, Yamaha) specify a JASO standard for compatibility with their four-stroke motorcycles' oil needs starting in 1998. Most non-Japanese motorcycle manufacturers (Aprilia, BMW, Ducati, Triumph, etc.) also specify a JASO standard for use in their motorcycle engines.
JASO only has two standards for four-stroke engines at this time: JASO MA (higher friction oils) and JASO MB (low friction oils). The JASO specifications include HTHS Viscosity requirements (covered further down on this page), sulfated ash content and a number of other important characteristics that are not specified or are not as rigidly specified by the API specifications. You can find more information on JASO specs and the specifications themselves at the JASO Info Page

API or JASO?
If your motorcycle manufacturer specifies both an API rating (such as SH), and the JASO MA rating, use only motor oils that satisfy both of the standards listed (the packaging for the oil will carry symbols for both if it meets both standards). Do not use an oil that only meets one standard but not the other, if both standards are specified by your owner's manual or the motorcycle manufacturer. Note that Shell Rotella oils are not JASO MA certified as of the time I write this due to the high sulfated ash content (JASO spec is maximum of 1.2% by weight). If your motorcycle engine was build between 1980 and 1998, it will not have a JASO specification, but will benefit from using a JASO MA spec oil (in conjunction with whatever other specifications the manufacturer requires).

[TimmmyD]

Do any of you "enginerds" know whether BMW's recommendation for synth substitutes for the X5 take ACEA rating into account?

This may be why they like Castrol so much (that and the HUGE markup for putting a roundel on the bottle). The only Mobil1 synths that are "ACEA A3" rated are 0W40 and 15W50. And that was prior to Mobil's reformulation into their current "long-life" variants.

[motordavid]

You need the poster named "Withidl" for the real answer,imo.

I looked around at the ACEA site(s), and the ACEA3 rating is prob. what you are ref'ing...but, for my 2Cts, I'm not gonna get excited about a euro oil spec. These motors will run on mushed up bananas;
Any good Syn oil will do the job,imo. API rated SL or better covers the "long drain int., blah,blah,blah" of that euro spec.

Furthermore, all this mfg'er driven "oil specific" stuff is bs for the car maker to get Bootsy and Biff to buy 8 buck a qt stuff from their stlr, and maybe, to try and dance around Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, imo.

My Qtr's up. GL,md

[JV]

Originally Posted by motordavid

Furthermore, all this mfg'er driven "oil specific" stuff is bs for the car maker to get Bootsy and Biff to buy 8 buck a qt stuff from their stlr, and maybe, to try and dance around Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, imo.

My Qtr's up. GL,md

MD is right on the money, even though his quarter's up. Don't fall victim to marketing. Recommendations come mostly in the name of the almighty dollar.

JV

[JCL]

Originally Posted by TimmmyD

Do any of you "enginerds" know whether BMW's recommendation for synth substitutes for the X5 take ACEA rating into account?

This may be why they like Castrol so much (that and the HUGE markup for putting a roundel on the bottle). The only Mobil1 synths that are "ACEA A3" rated are 0W40 and 15W50. And that was prior to Mobil's reformulation into their current "long-life" variants.

Nope. Never been called an enginenerd, either.

I read the ACEA info online, but given that it is a trade association and lobby group to the EU, I stopped after several pages.

I always liked SAE due to their relative independence from mfgrs. I say 'relative' with tongue firmly in cheek, as I work with a heavy equipment mfgr in Illinois that populates all the local SAE chapters and standards committees focusing on heavy equipment, which causes one to question how SAE can stay independent.

Agree with all the subsequent comments on marketing of oils.

Now, for something more interesting. Can you tell us about the /5 in your picture? How long have you had it? My dad and I restored an R50/5, think it was a 1970 model, pearl white. Beautiful bike, long gone now. When we had it, it had 24,000 miles, and had never been apart.

Jeff

[withidl]

Originally Posted by motordavid

You need the poster named "Withidl" for the real answer,imo.

I looked around at the ACEA site(s), and the ACEA3 rating is prob. what you are ref'ing...but, for my 2Cts, I'm not gonna get excited about a euro oil spec. These motors will run on mushed up bananas;
Any good Syn oil will do the job,imo. API rated SL or better covers the "long drain int., blah,blah,blah" of that euro spec.

Furthermore, all this mfg'er driven "oil specific" stuff is bs for the car maker to get Bootsy and Biff to buy 8 buck a qt stuff from their stlr, and maybe, to try and dance around Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, imo.

My Qtr's up. GL,md

Withidl here, refer to my new threads titled: "LUBRICATION 101" parts 1, 2 & 3.