LEGAL Qs: coolant blew AGAIN & steering buttons fixed, but you won't believe this...

[crosvs]

*I apologize for the length of this note, but if you can make the time to read this, I'm sure you'll agree this is a VERY bizarre situation BMW has got me into. Thank you for your time.*

Ok so I was driving down to SD from SF last night on the 5-South when, while downshifting to pass a slower car, I suddenly saw a bunch of "smoke" coming out the back and then recognized it as the familiar "grey steam" of coolant fluid. Seconds later, sure enough, the "CHECK COOLANT" msg came on and seconds later, CHECK TEMPERATURE and sure enough the temp was nudging into the red. Obviosuly I pulled over, called BMW Assist; my parents; and then the CHP as it was getting dark and I was in the middle of nowhere. 2.5 hrs later the tow truck AND my parents arrived; my X5 got taken to Weber BMW in Fresno; I got driven home, and flew down to SD today for school tomorrow whereupon I got a rental.

Now for the 2 weird (and unrelated) bits:

(1) COOLANT

A coolant hose burst back in May, if you remember, and was fixed by BMW San Diego. I was advised that since that particular fixed portion of the coolant system was now new and strong, it would necessarily render the other hoses in the system WEAKER and that I should not be surprised if they eventually rupture also.

Well, 2 weeks ago -- just before my trip to Europe -- I took my X5 to Sonnen BMW in San Rafael per the advice of my service manager there to give it a "full 100K mile inspection" to make sure we can catch anything and everything before my warranty expired. By the end of the day, I was advised that my car was A-OK and that everythign checked out -- nothing looked out of the ordinary, worn out, or otherwise suggesting possible failure in the foreseeable future.

And of course therein lies my question: legally, I call this professional negligence. If I had asked them to check my brake pads, and they said they loooked fine, and a mere 2 weeks / 1,000 miles later my brakes failed due to worn pads and I had suffered an accident, there would be NO question about it. So I posit that failure to recognize worn coolant hoses is analogous to the brake pads hypothetical. Therefore, I want to demand that BMW pay me all costs, including the consequential damages including, but not limited to: (1) repair costs; (2) fuel and meal expenses for my parents' round trip to pick me up; (3) airplane ticket cost from SFO to SAN; and (4) rental car costs; and (5) towing costs if such costs are present.

So what do you think?

(2) STEERING WHEEL BUTTONS

If you also remember, several months ago I had complained by that the steering wheel buttons' illumination AND functionality had begun to intermittently go out until finally failing completely a couple months ago. Neither Sonnent BMW; nor BMW of Beverly Hills; nor BMW San Diego were either able or willing to investigate and solve the problem. Curiously, they all gave me basically the same response although questioned independently and at different times: "First of all, this issue is likely NOT going to be covered by warranty, as it's electrical. Secondly, it is most likely caused by a computer glitch; (in the case of Sonnen BMW, they declared that in fact it *WAS NECESSARILY* a computer glitch, but that they couldn't figure out WHERE or WHAT the glitch was to fix); but to locate and isolate that glitch could take an indeterminate number of hours potentially resulting in exorbitantly high costs. Basically, you'd do best to forget about it."

So for the entire summer I made do without those buttons: no cruise control; no volume control; no track/channel control. Sounds funny, but honestly, once you're used to them, it sucks to not have them. Esp volume and cruise control.

Well. It occurred to me to ask a local BMW speciality store. Their response? "Hey no problem, that's a common problem on these cars!" A few hours worth of labor, and the thing was good as new. Turns out that the mechanism which keeps the wires wrapped around a "roller" inside the wheel had worn through the wires resulting in their intermittent and eventual absolute failure.

So question: WHY did NO BMW dealerships want to fix the problem for me?!?!

Thank you everyone for any and all insight you might offer.

--Marc

[blondboinsd]

Hmm is your warrenty aftermarket or BMW CPO because our 2003 325i CPO covers all components so I'm confused? Did you get a checklist of whats covered and was checked? If so you def would have room to complain?

[crosvs]

well. it WAS BMW CPO until it expired a week ago.

[xx3]

Well, sorry to tell you, but Sonnen BMW ranks as one of the WORST, MOST INCOMPETENT AND HORRIBLE BMW DEALERSHIPS KNOWN TO MAN !

Words cannot express how I feel about Sonnen BMW - or Alison BMW for that matter.

I don't know if you can go after BMW, but maybe you can go after Sonnen...

For future reference always go to Peterpan and Stevens Creek BMW. Its really saddens me how BMW's name is ruined by poor dealerships like Sonnen & Alison...

[blondboinsd]

Yeah BMWSD is good thou, we get all our BMW's serviced there and I have never had a service issue, now their body shop? Don't get me started lol

[JCL]

I have no experience with your California dealers, so I will stay out of that part.

First, the CPO warranty does not include cooling hoses and couplings (per the info on the X5world home page). You are on your own.

Secondly, it is possible during an inspection to find a 'soft' hose that is about to fail, but just as often, there is no warning. You can't demand that they should have found it, because it is very likely there was nothing to find. Also, this wasn't the same dealer who replaced the single hose, and who would therefore have known that the others should have been done. They tend to wear out at the same rate.

Third, you were the one who knew the hoses should have been replaced. You had one hose replaced, and were advised that it would be a good idea to do the rest. Sounds like good advice. Five year old coolant hoses are not something you want to gamble on with a BMW, given that the likely consequences can be $$$ (cylinder heads, etc). BMWs don't like to be overheated. Hoses are relatively cheap. Maybe you will be lucky and there will be no consequential damage to the engine.

Your brake pad analogy doesn't work, since a service technician can measure the thickness of the remaining brake pads. A better analogy would be a siezed caliper. No way of knowing it is coming, other than being aware that it is more and more likely as time goes by.

Check your service work order for the check over. I am pretty sure that there is a limitation of liability clause. You paid for a check, not an overhaul.

I think all the costs should be your responsibility.

As to the steering wheel buttons, interesting find. I didn't know about that wear point, but obviously your independent mechanic knew about it. Good for him. I would have told you the same as the BMW dealers: "Yes, we can try and fix it, but it is likely to be expensive. Are you sure you want to go there?" Their reluctance likely stems from the number of times they have had disputed invoices for investigation of electrical faults, where customers got surprised by the final bill. Electrical faults are not unknown, unfortunately. I wouldn't blame the dealers, but I would celebrate the fact that the independent knew where to look for the problem.

Jeff

[fast4d]

all bmw coolant related parts should be replaced by 90k miles. this includes the radiator, hoses and the expansion tank. it's sad but it's been that way since the e36 came out.

[crosvs]

Originally Posted by fast4d

all bmw coolant related parts should be replaced by 90k miles. this includes the radiator, hoses and the expansion tank. it's sad but it's been that way since the e36 came out.

agreed ... but they weren't. and while i agree with your logic, Jeff, that my knowledge about the weakened hoses should preclude me from holding BMW liable, the fact remains that BMW SHOULD have replaced all hoses on their own accord at 90K miles, but never did.

*sigh*

as for the general knowledge re: Sonnen's infamy, I did not know that...

[JCL]

Originally Posted by crosvs

agreed ... but they weren't. and while i agree with your logic, Jeff, that my knowledge about the weakened hoses should preclude me from holding BMW liable, the fact remains that BMW SHOULD have replaced all hoses on their own accord at 90K miles, but never did.

*sigh*

Would they have done that under your extended maintenance? You referenced only the warranty, and as I pointed out above, the warranty doesn't cover coolant hoses, they are considered a wear item, owner's responsibility. Was the one hose that was replaced in May, done at BMW's expense?

Edit: I just checked the info on the home page on the US BMW 6/100 maintenance plan (in case you have that as well as the CPO). It specifically excludes coolant hoses.

[JCL]

Originally Posted by crosvs

as for the general knowledge re: Sonnen's infamy, I did not know that...

Well, it may very well be general knowledge, I don't know, but there is not yet any evidence for that. You have the comments of a single poster, albeit one with a good number of posts. Check the dealer forum on the home page of this site, it is a good resource. Do a search of Sonnen there (I just did). There is a single post referencing them. A poster had lots of problems with a new 4.8, and wasn't happy with Sonnen. None of the respondents to that post had experience with Sonnen. So, your general knowledge consists of two individuals, one with lots of posts, and one with only eight posts. That is out of the entire BMW-owning population of that part of California. Yup, better start a class action law suit.

My point here (and there is one) is that the single most important factor in your BMW experience is you. You choose the dealer. You have search engines and other resources at your disposal. You were told to replace the friggin' hoses (lots of people don't get an early warning, you did). You don't have warranty or a maintenance plan for cooling hoses. And I don't think the dealer even knows that you may have taken your car along to a race track (despite the number of posts about that day)

After all that, you want to start a lawsuit? Get real.