4.4 X5 with 5hp24 problems

[swissfrank]

For the last 2-3 weeks now I've been dealing with a slipping reverse gear. It would initially slip before fully engaging, but now it has completely stopped moving in reverse period and while down shifting in manual to 1st is occasionally displays no signs of engine braking. All forward gears remain normal otherwise.

I've been doing some research into this and it is either one of two problems;

1-It is a Valve Body issue as per the earlier 5hp30 transmission where it would wear the check balls out thus causing the line pressure to the F clutch pack to be diminished, with the familiar no reverse.

***
5HP30

...In this transmission, the problem is that the plastic ball in the valve body passes through the plate. This problem is solved by installing slightly larger balls. If I hadn’t read about this problem numerous times through the aforementioned sources, there is a good chance we would have avoided the repair, or suggested a complete rebuilt unit...

quoted from
http://www.continentalimports.com/ser_ic100076.html
***


2-Or the slightly more complicated F Clutch Issue where the clutch seal itself is likely blown as per the 4hp22.

***
COMPLAINT:
ZF4HP22 NO REVERSE
(F CLUTCH CYLINDER FAILURE)

Vehicles equipped with the ZF4HP22 may come to the shop with a complaint of intermittent or no reverse. All of the other ranges may seem fine.

QUALIFICATION: During the road test it may be noted that there is no engine braking in manual first or second gear.

CAUSE: If an examination of the valve body fails to pin point the problem, an internal inspection will be necessary. Severe ring groove wear on the (F) clutch cylinder where the (E) clutch rides or even ring grooves missing because of wear is possible with a new ring installed on the drum, side clearance should be .003-.006 in.

CORRECTION: A new F clutch cylinder must be installed if any wear or damage is found. New sealing rings must also be installed. Steel rings mast be used for the E clutch sealing grooves.

The part number for the F clutch cylinder is 24-23-1217-088.
***

I've been reading a lot on this forums and like most people on here, i refuse to pay lots of money to have this problem fixed. My issue is instead of BMW diagnosing the actual root of the problem they just opt to replace the entire transmission (vaguely saying the transmission is defective), and for the unlucky ones, usually at our cost.

I can't be exactly sure which problem I have, But I'm hoping it will be problem #1 where it would be a worn out check ball, which would be labour intensive but cheap... If it's #2, I'll deal with that when the time comes.

I'm going to be dropping the pan and removing the valve body and measuring the diameter of the check balls this weekend. This should shed some light onto the subject for me. There is a detailed how-to with pics on the 5hp30 for reference.
http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/356031

The 5hp24 Valve body itself
http://www.freddiestransmissions.com/CIMG1774.JPG

List of other cars with 5hp24 transmissions that i may steal one out of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZF_5HP24_transmission

People to talk to
http://www.noreverse.org/repair.html
-ZF Parts passenger car transmission distributor 1-800-660-2269. You can also email your inquiry to [email protected]

Additional Helpful Info
http://www.bavarian-board.co.uk/foru...TID=39297&PN=1


Hopefully someone finds this helpful as it was a real pain to find any information regarding our specific problem. I was hoping someone just like me would have already gone done this path and done this (replaced the check balls) but it doesn't seem like anyone has made that post yet.

If anyone can provide me with anymore detailed information regarding the ZP5HP24, knowledge is power and I'd appreciate that.

Regards,
Frank

[rastaFarai]

:xoutpost:

[swissfrank]

Thanks!

[swissfrank]

Well it seems my ranting on about how BMW needlessly replaces transmission was a bit premature in this case. It seems that my problem is actually internal, as i now suspect it's the infamous F Clutch Seal.

This evening I have pulled the VB off the transmission and out of the car, and pulled apart housing 1, 2, 3 and the channel plate on the valve body to find that the little check ball that used to be in housing 3 on the 5hp30 is now replaced by a check valve instead on the 5hp24. The check ball that is in the channel plate is replaced by a metal ball on the 5hp24 versus the Teflon ball on the 5hp30.

Everything else looks normal and clean, I feel quite a bit disappointed at this point as now I know that the extent of my problems is a lot more severe.

I'd be willing to try replacing that seal on my own if anyone can shed some light on that one for me! I can't seem to find any information on that one. BMW TIS or the ZF catalog don't go into any detail...

[statdoc]

Originally Posted by swissfrank

I'd be willing to try replacing that seal on my own if anyone can shed some light on that one for me!

Sorry, man. My knowledge of the transmission is limited to vaguely knowing its location. Regardless, good luck and welcome to the board.

[swissfrank]

Originally Posted by statdoc

Sorry, man. My knowledge of the transmission is limited to vaguely knowing its location. Regardless, good luck and welcome to the board.

Thanks for the welcome, I'd kinda like not to have to be so intimate with my transmission though, just knowing it was roughly underneath me and working would have been awesome.

[JCL]

Sorry, I haven't been inside a BMW automatic (although I understand the valve body and front clutch concepts from other automatics).

From your other current post, it appears you replaced the factory fluid with a non-approved and lower spec fluid, about 40,000 km ago. Now you have an internal failure, it seems.

Do you see any connection here? Is there a possibility that the lower spec fluid may have contributed to an internal failure? Personally, I am in the camp of not changing fluid, as I believe that most of the transmission failures are not caused by fluid degradation as much as they are by sensor failures, and other problems not related to the fluid. I would run the transmission to failure, and then replace it, using only the factory fluid. That is just me, I have no more evidence that this is the most economical approach than those who change the fluid believing that it will help on principle.

I hope you get it sorted out. It would be interesting to understand the sequence of events a little better.

[swissfrank]

Originally Posted by JCL

From your other current post, it appears you replaced the factory fluid with a non-approved and lower spec fluid, about 40,000 km ago. Now you have an internal failure, it seems.

Do you see any connection here? Is there a possibility that the lower spec fluid may have contributed to an internal failure?...

Thanks for the input. I'm going to play a little bit of devils advocate and offer some food for thought. I'm not discounting your opinion, but I'm a firm believer in changing your fluids, nothing lasts forever.

Yes, the ESSO LT71141 fluid is superior to regular mercon/dexron III but the most notable difference on the specs sheets are the LongLife or LifeTime additives packages that are added to the fluid more so than the sheer properties etc. Esso also says that this specific fluid only has a 3 year shelf life. Three years? How is it supposed to last a life time in an environment that is much harsher than that of a bottle. I have the spec sheets somewhere but I'll save that for another time, to save me going on a rant.

Not to mention I have a land rover with the 4HP24 (basically the same transmission with an extra gear) and it uses mercon/dexron III, and it's kind of funny to see every big car manufacturer (AUDI, BMW, JAGUAR, RANGE ROVER) with the exact same transmission 5HP24 , all use their own "SPECIAL FLUID"... Sounds more like a clever Marketing ploy than science to me. (Especially at $30/liter)

I must say that I am typically pretty abusive to my car, continually redlining my poor baby to say the least, and I am surprised how I have not noted any wear (metal or clutch) in the pan of my transmission since changing the fluid. The old fluid had quite a notable amount of soot and metal, and I particularly point my finger at fluid breakdown. If on the other hand my friction material and clutches burned out or grenaded, yes, at that point I would think using this fluid was definitely a bad idea, but that is not the scenario.

The main reason however, is the fact that we all know that the No Reverse on these transmissions, (X5, 7 SERIES, 5 SERIES and even similar on the 3 SERIES) have been occurring quite prominently, there are even many, many site dedicated to these very symptoms.

http://www.noreverse.org/

Most people have been unlucky and haven't even made it to 170,000km as I have, and lots have considerably lower millage. At the end of the day my point is, this also happens to people that do exactly as BMW says, and leave the transmission fluid intact or replace with the 71141. It may even seem that it actually happens more, but I think this is more due to an internal design flaw. As BMW made recall to the 7 series http://forums.audiworld.com/a8/msgs/150731.phtml

Something else to note is how BMW changed their service schedules a few years ago from the regular changing of all fluids at some point in time to the LifeTime everything after they started including service with purchases of new vehicles...

I have a feeling I may in fact have hit a tender subject, but I welcome the discussion. However I do not endorse the use of non recommended fluids, I just don't feel that paying $30/liter is justified and wanted to prove to myself there were alternatives.

I am trying to get my friend to fix my transmission for a couple cases of beer, I just have to get it out of the x5, and being under the car yesterday it looks as if it is going to be one PITA, anyone have any suggestions?

Regards,
Frank

[langleyinLA]

I own a 2001 4.4L X5 with 82K, and I want to share my recent experience with the ZF5HP24 transmission.

Symptons:

1) When I brake from 30 to 40mph to a stop, there is a "clunk" or a hard downshift in the transmission.

2) The X5 will not shift into reverse sometimes, especially in the morning. Sometimes in reverse, the reverse does not engage, except after stepping on the accelerator and rpm is 2 to 3K. Then the reverse would engage suddenly.

After seaching x5world and googling, I tried inexpensive ways to solve the problem.

1) reset the program (turn key on 5sec., turn off 5sec. and turn on engine)

2) replaced the transmission fluid and put in latest transmission software.

After the "inexpensive fixes", in addition to the original symptons, I had

1) when goin up a slight incline, stepping on the accelerator, I would have a sudden jerk. The rpm would increase and then transmission would engage. feels like being rear ended.

I own an auto repair shop and decided to bite the bullet and investigate. I removed the transmission, bought a retrofit kit and opened the transmission. I would like to mention that the transmission fluid was dark gray before changing, and was also a gray color when I removed the transmission (2 weeks new fluid).

I replaced the parts from the retrofit kit into the transmission and looked for possible causes. One of the o ring look very slightly worn. However, one of the clutch drum housing had very deep cuts in the groove from the clutch (highly unusual). It appears that was where most of the fine metal came from. I cleaned the valve body and did not change anything in it. I also replaced that the clutch drum housing (I am not sure if this is the correct term for the part b/c the groove is on the outside). We put everything back and

Hurray all the symptons were gone!

Coincidentally, the same time I was working on the X5, a 2000 328 with the ZF5HP17 transmission was also in the shop with a no reverse sympton. I had also found the noreverse.org website while investigating the x5 issue. Originally, we were just going to replace the transmission with a used one. After finding out from noreverse.org, we decided that a used transmission might have the same problem. So we opened the ZF5HP17, and found the exact problem as shown in the tranny autopsy. I have the part and could post a picture.

However, the cause of the no reverse in the X5 and the 328 was different. One, the lip of the drum was breaking whereas the X5 drum had cuts in the grooves. I do not believe they are the same drums though.

Hope this helps.

[JCL]

Originally Posted by langleyinLA

I own a 2001 4.4L X5 with 82K, and I want to share my recent experience with the ZF5HP24 transmission.....
<snip>

Great post. Interesting that the two ZF transmissions you went in to had apparently different failure modes (unless another root cause resulted in the two different failures on the housings)