BMW doesn't speak diagnosglish

[Xited]

Hi everyone

First time poster, long time lurker. I've really enjoyed reading the various posts on this site - not only knowledgeable but really down right helpful and nice. This is a great forum.

Bit of a story to my intro / car. Feel free to skip to the bottom if you just want to get to the question but if you're reading this and are in two minds about whether or not to get a car checked before purchase, then read it all.

I've just taken posession of a (new to me) 2004 X5 3.0d (6 speed auto box)

I actually purchased this car about 6 weeks ago - flew up from Melbourne to Queensland to pick it up. Plan was to drive it down to Melbourne (approx 2000km) so told the dealership the car had to be in good nick. Was told the car was perfect and that they would never sell a car unless it was really good (they are a big Mercedes dealership so only stock good cars that have been traded - they wholesale the rubbish stuff).

So i pull out of the dealership at around 8pm and head towards Brisbane (approx 150km away). Within 3 minutes - literally - the Trans Failsafe Prog message comes up - no thumping from the box or anything, just the message. I call the dealer and ask him what's going on - this car is meant to be good. He gives me some nonsense reason that car has been sitting for a while, sure is just a sensor fault, turn it off and turn it back on again. Sure enough, error disappears and hesitantly i continue my journey.

In the morning, i'm tossing up between driving the car or taking it to get checked out. I decide to take it to a BMW dealer to do a diagnostic. Response: needs a new gearbox. I'm like what? It drives fine... he tells me the error code is 4F51 EGS: 5 Gear monitoring & IKE: EGS signal line disturbed and says that it means the transmission is slipping and that the clutch packs are worn. He also said they analysed some of the oil and it was burned and had stringy bits in it.

So i call the dealership and tell them and after much hassle they tell me to drive it back up - another 150km. Long story short they took back the car and refunded the money - BMW quoted $11k for a new transmission and they were not prepared to pay.

I get back home and begin my search again and can't find anything. Well, out of the blue the dealer calls me back and offers me a ML63 and a '09 X5 - both way out of my price range. Then he says, you know, we still need to get rid of this car and can't sell it with a problematic transmission - if we fix it, would you be interested (they also wanted more than i paid first time around as they were fixing the 'box). I said no as i would have no warranty from 2000km away and would only consider it if they dropped the price by $5000 which is the cost of the reco on the box.

In the end they agreed and the car was freighted down - it arrived this afternoon.

My question is, does the fault code 4F51 EGS: 5 Gear monitoring guarantee that i need a new 'box and it is slipping or could it be caused by something else? I have seen many posts here and elsewhere where it's an electrical fault or something that causes the Trans Failsafe Prog to come up but have not been able to find any reference to the specific fault code above. BMW's answer to everything these days is just to replace the part even though it may be something else that is causing it. They did this to me what i took an SMG M3 to them, said it was the pump and wanted $5K and it turned out to be a $30 relay - they are not interested in repairing / diagnosing anything properly.

So given many of you have extensive experience in this, does the above mean i need a new box or could it be something else? If so, what?

The Trans Failsafe Prog only came up that one time and i have not had the box slip at all, not even once that i could feel. I do get the occasonal thump when stopping from 2nd - 1st but as i understand it that is common. I guess i don't want to shell out for a new box when there could be nothing wrong with it - the car drives very well and doesn't miss a beat with the transmission, shifts very well / smoothly- what are your thoughts?

[TwinTurboGTR]

Xited,
Congrats on the purchase? With the X throwing a code for the TFSP and the dealer saying it needs a new tranny is odd, but may not be outrageous. How many miles are on the X? I didn't see that mentioned anywhere. If it has low miles ~ under 30K you should be fine. If it has over 70K then there is some concern. I mean these numbers that I am throwing out are just baselines. Unless the last owner took this car and drove it like a rental with the extra insurance coverage, then those baselines will stick. That clunk from 2nd to 1st isn't normal operation. But most of these symptoms happen on 4.6is/4.8is. Those trans are prone to failure of the torque converter and clutch packs. There is very little on the 3.0d tranny failing. To be honest with you, if the dealer said 11K for the fix and a new tranny, you should have taken it back to the dealer and left it there. Unless they were prepared to CPO it, plus replace the tranny or give you a powertrain warranty, I would have just left it. I know your excitment might have gotten in the way of your judgement but you have to remember. The X is a great ride. It will raise every hair on your body, when it is running right. Given that the dealer found burned oil and residue is a sign that this car was driven hard and wasn't properly maintained. Having the dealer give you $5k off the sticker and replacing the tranny is great short term, but long term, they still got away. If you want to be through, send a sample of your motor oil to get sampled through testing. The test isn't a definitive, but can give you ideas. You have to remember, these cars take a lot to maintain. If you read recent posts, there are folks with valley pan gasket failures, Self level susp inact errors, trannys blowing up, weird electrical gremlins. And these are all the COMMON problems.

What I am truely saying is this. I know you like the X, otherwise you wouldn't have bought it. But with it having tranny problems and the dealer saying they would take it back and fix it, but charge you more for it doesn't make any sense. If they were sensible, they would have refunded, fixed it, called you back and say, "Ok, we will agree to fix it. Would you still like to take delivery (Same or lower price) and we will warranty the tranny for 2 years." Then I would have considered. But for the dealer to nick and dime in the end doesn't sit right with me. Just my $.02.

[Sundayjumper]

Take the the $5k you saved and put it in the bank. Drive the car until the gearbox gives up. Spend the $5k on a recon 'box.

Job jobbed

Seriously, if the car is driving OK then I'd keep driving until it really needs the 'box fixed.

[TwinTurboGTR]

Yeah I would have to disagree. Not to rain on the parade, but that 5K isn't going to go very far. There is always something unexpected that will happen. We don;t even know how many miles are on the X. For all we know, the rear main seal might be shot, transfer case is blown to hell and a host of all other problems. Best thing to do would be to just get the refund and find another X. One without any problems right from the getgo. This way you can just enjoy the drive until a problem comes out and then you spend the money to fix it. No sense in financing a car that you wont be driving for at least 2 weeks.

[Sundayjumper]

Originally Posted by TwinTurboGTR

Best thing to do would be to just get the refund...

Did you actually read his post ??

He's already had a refund once, then negotiated a new price $5k below the original and had it shipped 2000km from the dealer to his home. I don't imagine the offer of another refund is on the table.

I don't know what prices are like over there but here in the UK the Sterling equivalent of AUD5k is enough to get a 'box reconditioned by a specialist. Maybe get it checked over - by a transmission specialist, not the BMW dealer - to see if they find anything amiss, then I say drive it, enjoy it, and deal with it if it becomes a real problem.

[TwinTurboGTR]

Whoops, I knew he already got the refund, I meant to say, which really doesn't make any difference now because he negotiated another deal but I think in my first post I said his excitement got in the way of judgment. So meaning that he should have just accepted the refund and let that one go and find another one.

[JCL]

The problem certainly could be caused by an electronic component, but it is likely that there is subsequent consequential damage. I say that because of your comment that the oil smelled burnt, and had particles in it (likely friction material). An electronic failure can cause low clutch pressure, that causes slippage, that makes heat (and clutch plate debris) and then you're stuffed.

BMW doesn't repair these transmissions because they don't make them, they simply buy them from either ZF or GM. They consider them sealed components, and don't train their dealers to work on them, or stock parts for them. Transmission shops familiar with your model of transmission (which will be used in lots of vehicles other than BMW) have the training, tools, manuals, and parts sources to rebuilt them. That kind of shop is what you need to find.

You could drive it until it leaves you on the side of the road, but at that point you may not be able to get it home, it may not be convenient, and it may not be safe (depends where it leaves you). I would start researching transmission shops, and have it overhauled when it is convenient to do so. It isn't going to fix itself.

[Xited]

Wow! This is what i was talking about - super helpful. Thanks for all the quick responses.

Couple of things to clear up - should have provided earlier.
Car has 110,000kms on the clock
A reconditioned box from the same guys that the BMW dealers use is $5k - got it quoted before I accepted the offer. My logic is that if I don't need a reco box I got a steal. If I have to do it, the I'm paying exactly what I was going to the first time around but I have a fresh box. Maybe my logic doesn't stick? Happy to hear the contrary view.
There is no opportunity to return the car again and to be honest I wouldn't want to - even with the box issue (potentially) I could sell it for more than I paid.

I should also mention that the car was fitted with a tow bar and an electronic braking package where I have this gizmo in the driver side footwell that help stabilize loads or something.

[Helmuth]

Hi guys,

stupid question from somebody who is not a specialist: Why does each single transmission error mean that the whole transmission has to be replaced? If the sparkplugs fail --- do we replace the engine?

Aren't there companies around who can repair that clutches? I am really wondering about that.

Maybe somebody has an answer.

Thanks, Helmuth

[JCL]

Originally Posted by Helmuth

Hi guys,

stupid question from somebody who is not a specialist: Why does each single transmission error mean that the whole transmission has to be replaced? If the sparkplugs fail --- do we replace the engine?

Aren't there companies around who can repair that clutches? I am really wondering about that.

Maybe somebody has an answer.

Thanks, Helmuth

Sparkplugs aren't really a good comparison. How about a piston? If one failed, and you caught the failure before anything else was damaged, you could replace one piston. But if you drove it long enough for the broken piston to send debris throughout the engine, you might be buying a new engine.

The sensors that fail control the operation of the clutches. You can get an error message for a failed sensor, but you can also get one for slipping clutches, ie the symptom as opposed to the original fault. If it has gone far enough to have symptoms, you are generally looking at a rebuild. In that case, any parts that are within spec can be reused, and any that are outside spec are replaced. A fully rebuilt transmission is typically priced at the average overhaul price for a number of transmissions, plus the stocking cost to have one available immediately. If you have your own transmission rebuilt, you avoid the stocking cost, and as long as your transmission isn't in worse shape than the average rebuild candidate, it will end up costing you less.