Prices

[Robert Platt Bell]

Back in the day, a local dealer (and I am sure a lot of others did this) would take a new car, disconnect the speedometer/odometer (easy to do back then) and then let his wife drive it (or himself, his son, brother-in-law, etc.) with dealer tags on it.

After six months to a year, they would bring the car back to the dealership, detail it, and then re-hook up the speedometer/odometer cable, and then sell it as a "new car" to some unsuspecting sucker.

If you were astute, you'd notice slight wear on the brake pedal, or the fact the oil was dirty (if not changed before sale) or dirt in the undercarriage. But most folks never noticed it and merely wondered why the tires and brakes seemed to wear out faster than usual.

Today, this is harder to do, as odometer fraud is harder (but not impossible) to commit. On a BMW you'd need the programming tools. Oh, wait, dealers have those, don't they?

But as your experience shows, some dealers have no qualms about putting a couple thousand miles on a car, and then selling it as new.

Worse things have happened, of course. A car is stolen from the dealer lot, taken on a high-speed chase, driven over curbs, and then wrecked. It is repaired and sold as "new".

Or the classic one - the car FALLS OFF the transporter, and is repaired with new fenders, hood, etc., and sold as "new".

It's like working in a sausage factory. You really don't want to know what goes on there - or what actually goes into the sausage...

[Daka]

Robert,
May I call you Robert, we are both OF's I think....
I must say VERY WELL PUT...and you are right, I did DODGE the bullet.
Interestingly, I just put 4 new tires on the car (Yoko Avid ) and it feels softer and like a new car....and when I think about it we like the equipment and feel of this one...
So, now that gives me some spare cash to put into a newer Z3, I'm going to go from a 96 (133,000mi) up to say 2000...or so...LOCAL PRIVATE OWNER ONLY no $700 DEALER FEE

[Whitecat]

Originally Posted by Robert Platt Bell

Was that a dealer retail price, or a private party sale? There is a spread of about 20-30% if not more, between the two.

A lot of folks simply don't "get" this, and it always irks me when someone lists their car for "below book value" and the price is $100 less than KBB Dealer retail. Not a real bargain, and sort of deceptive, too. I think such folks believe they are being clever.

When selling a car, it is not realistic to expect to get dealer retail. Dealers have salesmen and financing and other things that allow them to charge more than the average curbstoner could do.

Cars depreciate by about 50% every five years. It is a pretty good rule of thumb. BMWs a little less so, but not really a lot less so. So if a 2001 is trading at $10K, then a 2006 might be fetching $20K on a good day.

KBB is showing, for a low mileage, excellent condition 2006, loaded about 20 grand in "excellent" condition.

• Excellent
  $20,250
• Very Good
  $19,750
• Good
  $19,300
• Fair
  $17,800

That's KBB. I think they tend to be a little ambitious with pricing (dealers love to use KBB, as it provides higher prices). NADAguides is a little lower, and the dealer is likely to use that when evaluating a trade-in.

Edmunds is the most pessimistic, but I think a valuable tool, as it takes into account condition, mileage, color, zip code, etc.

Here is the Edmunds evaluation. I had to guess on options and color, etc.:

Customized True Market Value® Prices


Trade-In Private Party Dealer Retail
National Base Price $12,214 $13,693 $15,360
Optional Equipment $2,275 $2,599 $3,290
Power Glass Sunroof $138 $158 $200
Heated Steering Wheel $29 $33 $42
Remote Sunroof Operation $17 $20 $25
Heated Passenger Seat $24 $28 $35
Front Sport Seats $277 $316 $400
Privacy Glass $41 $47 $59
Heated Driver's Seat $24 $28 $35
Subwoofer $233 $267 $338
Driver Adjustable Suspension $97 $111 $141
Headlight Cleaners $61 $69 $88
Reclining Rear Seat $61 $70 $89
Power Glass Rear Sunroof $138 $158 $200
Manual Side Sunshade $37 $42 $53
AM/FM/Cassette/CD Audio System $49 $56 $71
Wood Shift Knob Trim $0 $0 $0
16-Way Power Front Passenger Seat $117 $133 $169
Wood Door Trim $0 $0 $0
Wood Center Console Trim $0 $0 $0
16-Way Power Driver's Seat $117 $133 $169
19 Inch Alloy Wheels $185 $211 $267
Bluetooth $79 $90 $114
Satellite Communications $18 $20 $26
Rear Heated Seats $68 $78 $98
Front and Rear Side Airbags $75 $86 $108
Navigation System $301 $344 $435
Auto-Dim Rear View Mirror $23 $26 $33
Auto-Dim Exterior Mirror(s) $29 $33 $42
Rear Ski Bag $37 $42 $53
Color Adjustment - Silver $64 $72 $81
Regional Adjustment - for Zip Code 32210 $26 $30 $33
Mileage Adjustment - 70,000 miles $834 $834 $834
Condition Adjustment - Outstanding $1,127 $1,206 $1,384

Total $16,540 $18,434 $20,982

What is really interesting is how little mileage adds to the equation - far less than overall condition. Of course "condition" is subjective. And even then, condition really doesn't affect the price by more than 10%, at least according to Edmunds.

And of course, pricing on a car is totally subjective anyway. If a car has a certain combination of options and is a "must have" for someone, they will gladly pay over market value for it.

I paid $25,000 for my 2001, about eight years ago. It had 48,900 miles on it and three days left on the warranty. We've driven it, hard, over 100,000 miles, including a trip to Labrador (not a smart idea, parts availability in the maritimes for BMWs is sketchy, as I found out). Probably half that mileage was towing a trailer.

And other than going to the dealer for a cruise control switch on the last day of warranty, it has not seen a dealership, or indeed any other mechanic than myself, in that time.

And really, nothing major has ever broken on it. Sure, the usual door handle mechanisms and window clips, and stuff like CV boots. I put a new MAF and DISA valve. I put a new water pump and thermostat in it, but that was more preventative maintenance.

I rebuilt the front suspension this year, when I replaced the axle shafts. But that was probably unnecessary, in retrospect, as all it really needed was one CV boot. Total parts cost was about $800.

Probably the most expensive single thing I had to replace was the alternator, which the Napa in Nova Scotia wanted $300 for (the dealer wanted close to $1000, just for the part!).

The last alternator I replaced, on my Ford pickup, was $35...

So, to me, anyway, I think these are pretty robust and long-lasting cars.

And when this one dies, I'll look for another secondhand one.

(BTW, the "about 50% every five years" rule works out here. The car sold new for about $50,000. I paid $25,000 after five years. At the ten year mark, it was worth about $12,500. Today, it is hovering around ten, perhaps less).

Wow nice study ...to answer your question... it was a re-seller incorporated...i guess between the $tealers and the Private.. The engine is also part of the value V8 vs V6 ...this is more than $10k variance on price at the purchase (new)

[Robert Platt Bell]

Originally Posted by Daka

Robert,
May I call you Robert, we are both OF's I think....
I must say VERY WELL PUT...and you are right, I did DODGE the bullet.
Interestingly, I just put 4 new tires on the car (Yoko Avid ) and it feels softer and like a new car....and when I think about it we like the equipment and feel of this one...
So, now that gives me some spare cash to put into a newer Z3, I'm going to go from a 96 (133,000mi) up to say 2000...or so...LOCAL PRIVATE OWNER ONLY no $700 DEALER FEE

I did the Yokos this time around as they were $160 a tire and the Michelin MXV4 Energy tires were like $260.

I went on tire rack the other day and searched by SIZE and not by car, and found a Michelin "Primus" P255/55 R18 MXV for $161 a tire (!!). Not only that, it has a higher consumer satisfaction rating that the "energy" tire.

The Yokos are OK, but a bit loud (after a while, they were quiet when new), and don't have the 60,000 mile teadlife of the Michelins. I think I will put a set of the Primus on the car, at about 160K miles. Likely the last set of tires I will put on it...

If you are looking for a Z3, there are a lot of "garage queens" out there with little or no miles on them. My 1999 M has 40K on the clock, and this is not atypical. Worth about 10K on a good day, too.

[Robert Platt Bell]

Originally Posted by Whitecat

Wow nice study ...to answer your question... it was a re-seller incorporated...i guess between the $tealers and the Private.. The engine is also part of the value V8 vs V6 ...this is more than $10k variance on price at the purchase (new)

To me, the heart and soul of BMW (the company and the car) is the venerable inline six.

It pisses me off when some yahoo advertises a BMW as having a "V-6". A V-6 is packaging and manufacturing compromise of an engine. GM built them with a 90 degree bank angle, initially, so they could make them on the same assembly line as the V-8s. The Japanese favored them as they fit into the engine compartments of their transverse-mounted FWD cars.

But the inline six? Sexy, smooth, and silky. A V-8 is nice for that burble, but really is a different beast.

DeLorean got it, and tried to convince GM to produce an OHC inline six for Pontiac. Nice engine, in search of a car to put it in. The OHC DeLorean "Sprint Six" Tempest and Firebirds are collectables, if only because so many folks yanked them and put 350 V-8s in them.

The Big Healeys, the old Triumphs, the early Datsuns. Those beautiful, lovely, sexy, inline sixes. And it goes back further than that - the original Jaguars and the XKE, with that sweet inline six, before they ruined it with that nose-heavy V-12. Or the original Rolls Royce Silver Ghost, with its silent running inline six - once the folks at Rolls worked out the torsional vibration problem that snapped the crankshafts of lesser makes.

BMW still makes the inline six Few do, anymore. GM tried again, with a DOHC six, but found only the Trailblazer to put it in. (Imagine that engine in the Pontiac Solstice - a real Z3 beater!). Lack of imagination. And a costly engine to produce. So they pulled the plug.

They went back to their "corporate" 3.8 which traces its roots to 1964. I guess they have to go with what works.

The V-8s are nice and all, but I keep hearing horror stories about repair bills. The 3.0 is a pretty bulletproof motor, and has enough power to keep up, and even tow a trailer.

Heck, today, you can get it with twin turbos, cranking out 300 HP - in non-M form.

So to me, less is more. And that certainly fits my pocketbook better as well. And they are a lot easier to work on, too. When you open the hood, you can see the ground underneath.

I guess I am a six-cylinder guy! So long as BMW keeps making them, I'll buy them.

But for some reason, the V-8s, well, they just leave me cold.

[Daka]

Unfortunately, BMW is now getting away from the awesome in line 6.
The "New Turbo 4" seems ok, one of my friends leases one (?) every 3 years he gets the same White 528...(don't ask)
My first experience with the 6 (NO it is NOT a V6)...was in the Bavaria's of the 70's, they had 2 problems,,overheating ( a 3 core radiator solved that) and I seem to remember a valve problem.
The Yoko's I put on seem a LOT quieter, and "nicer feeling",new anyway, than the Michelin MXV's that were on there...time will tell.
I'd like to talk to you about the Z3 M problems etc I'm liking my 96 that I really bought for my son, but he decided he needs an SUV so I am driving it....the problem with it is that it is Silver...and over the last few months I have almost been sideswiped 3 times, with the top down the car must be very hard to see...and then again in South FL...we have the texting, blue hair, aggressive...etc problems.
how about sending me your e-mail addy dak911(at)aol.com

[Daka]

WOW, THE VOTES ARE IN.
My wife took the X5 this morning for the first time since the new tires and she noticed the difference...my car has the Sport Package, which means that it is a "little" stiff riding, she always had something to say about that, now she said it feels much "softer"....and she LIKED it....goodbye X5 I'll have to be the first one out in the AM to get it now....(well I did get the OK to upgrade the Z3, reason being she won't drive that anyway it's a 5 speed) I have been trolling the Z3 boards for info on the 2000 and later cars....I love the 4 cylinder, and it's 25 mpg town but I LIKE the look of the M...fat rear....

[bcredliner]

Way to do--happy wife, happy Z3!