Hydrogen? Fact or Fiction.

[Buddhakan]

The recent press release on the new X5 was good news for those of us in the real world who would most likely need to purchase a REAL car in the next few months to a year or so, but the 5000 pound gorilla still lurks in the closet...............

"Ok great BMW can make a Hydrogen car, we've known this for quite some time..... Ok great they plan on making one with Hyrdrogen and Gas use capabilities... Ok great they "plan" on making sure it'll be in PRODUCTION by 2010...

OK GREAT, they say it's ahead of schedule maybe we'll see a 7 series with Hydrogen within 2 years?

All these rumors, we know they have the tech and they have cars that work.

What's the real story on BMW "PRODUCTION" Hydrogen hybrid vehicles because frankly most of the internet garbage is rehashed stuff I was reading on the net in 1998.....

Sure if you want to put an ad campaign out there to convince greenpeace that you're planning to eh "make a move" that's great... but either tell us you are A) Making and RELEASING the dang things or just refer to them as CONCEPT cars ......

[JCL]

IMO, the real story is that it isn't particularly difficult to make a hydrogen-powered vehicle. I was involved in demo-ing a hydrogen-powered truck in 1986. The storage system was a little scary, as it was liquid hydrogen, but it worked.

Two issues. No distribution system, and no particularly cost-effective or efficient way to produce hydrogen. Using natural gas seems silly, since you could just have a natural gas vehicle and save all the trouble.

So, you have a new high-tech vehicle with an empty tank, nothing to put in the tank, and no way to do it if you did have something to fill it with (all said tongue-in-cheek).

[prism]

BMW is well advanced in the hydrogen combustion engine technology as they have developed a method of keeping the fuel tank at the required cool temperature for up to over a week. The major hurdle at this point is not so much technological but more to do with infrastructure, ie even if they were to launch a hydrogen car tomorrow, how would you refuel it? It will take years before governments take the initiative to develop a network of hydro fuel stations.

[Buddhakan]

Saying you can't eat chicken because you may not have any eggs is not going to answer the question I proposed.

Frankly if 70,000 concert goers can at any major city manage to obtain large pressurized tanks full of nitrous oxide, and if every major Clown outfit can manage to provide the Master bozo with a big ole tank of helium to bend rubber balloons into shapes of Doggies and Wabbits, well then the United States is certainly capable of providing a little hydrogen here or there.

The "liability" concern would be the greatest argument, however most of the new beautiful we are building a clean energy future press ops seem to indicate that the new models will have two tanks, one for gas one for hydrogen.... So the argument of well we can't SELL it because you can't USE it goes out the window.

America is a supply and demand Genius. We're kind of crass about a lot of things but if tomorrow the next hottest thing amongst fifth graders was a gigantic rubber snake that yakked up mustard when you tickled it's belly you can rest assured that every mall in the country would be stocked with them within a month.

I guess the real lurking gorilla will be the unavoidable press of "remember the last time the Germans told us Hydrogen tech was the way to go in New Jersey" press........

But really if Hydrogen technology were availabe today and the unit cost let's say a 20-25% premium over Gas, People wouldn't be happy but there would be buyers in droves.

Hey I live at the shore and nobody can tell me that tides and water levels haven't actually changed. I've been here all my life, now I'm not one of these doom and gloom global warming guys, but I can tell ya that just from my poor laymans perspective, the water at high tide sure does seem a little bit higher than 20 years ago. Who knows maybe I watch too much of the History channel?

Oh not to mention the fact that until like August this year the Water temp at the Jersey shore was about 10 degress lower than normal... a whole lot like water temps have always been in the Northern shores of cape cod etc.

But maybe I'm nuts. Maybe we're all nuts. Could be one big coincidence.

[Jabrone_X5]

Originally Posted by prism

BMW is well advanced in the hydrogen combustion engine technology as they have developed a method of keeping the fuel tank at the required cool temperature for up to over a week. The major hurdle at this point is not so much technological but more to do with infrastructure, ie even if they were to launch a hydrogen car tomorrow, how would you refuel it? It will take years before governments take the initiative to develop a network of hydro fuel stations.

No matter if its hydogen or whatever, infrastructure will be a hurdle. It will always take time for the public and the government to adapt to a new technology such as a new fuel source. Everything can be accomplished at a timely manner depending on money and the urgency of replacing gasoline.

I'm not sure if BMW overcame the stabilty of storing hydrogen at extreme temperature when you're in Finland with sub zero temperatures or if you're in the Dubai desert with hell-like temperatures. At those extreme conditions hydrogen will be very unstable. The technical conundrum is finding a way to store the hydrogen safely and efficiently for public use, I don't believe BMW or anyone else has found a cost effective or a way at all to accomplish it.

[JCL]

Originally Posted by Buddhakan

Saying you can't eat chicken because you may not have any eggs is not going to answer the question I proposed.

Frankly if 70,000 concert goers can at any major city manage to obtain large pressurized tanks full of nitrous oxide, and if every major Clown outfit can manage to provide the Master bozo with a big ole tank of helium to bend rubber balloons into shapes of Doggies and Wabbits, well then the United States is certainly capable of providing a little hydrogen here or there.

The "liability" concern would be the greatest argument, however most of the new beautiful we are building a clean energy future press ops seem to indicate that the new models will have two tanks, one for gas one for hydrogen.... So the argument of well we can't SELL it because you can't USE it goes out the window.

America is a supply and demand Genius. We're kind of crass about a lot of things but if tomorrow the next hottest thing amongst fifth graders was a gigantic rubber snake that yakked up mustard when you tickled it's belly you can rest assured that every mall in the country would be stocked with them within a month.

I guess the real lurking gorilla will be the unavoidable press of "remember the last time the Germans told us Hydrogen tech was the way to go in New Jersey" press........

But really if Hydrogen technology were availabe today and the unit cost let's say a 20-25% premium over Gas, People wouldn't be happy but there would be buyers in droves.

Hey I live at the shore and nobody can tell me that tides and water levels haven't actually changed. I've been here all my life, now I'm not one of these doom and gloom global warming guys, but I can tell ya that just from my poor laymans perspective, the water at high tide sure does seem a little bit higher than 20 years ago. Who knows maybe I watch too much of the History channel?

Oh not to mention the fact that until like August this year the Water temp at the Jersey shore was about 10 degress lower than normal... a whole lot like water temps have always been in the Northern shores of cape cod etc.

But maybe I'm nuts. Maybe we're all nuts. Could be one big coincidence.

You are focusing on the BMW engine demo technology, not on whether it is marketable. Couple of points to add to what has been posted above:

1) Production of hydrogen. Of course the US can produce hydrogen. But why would you want to, using current technology? We need a commercially viable technology to produce hydrogen from a renewable energy source, solar or whatever. Most of it is made today from natural gas because that is the cheapest way to make it. It takes a lot of energy to make it. Therefore, you would be paying a lot more than a 20% premium. If you have the natural gas to start with, just run your internal combustion engine on that, skip the hydrogen step entirely. It won't solve global warming, but it is a heck of a lot cleaner than burning hydrogen, when you consider the full process flow.

2) Distribution of hydrogen. No infrastructure today. If there was supply (see point 1) and demand (see next point 3) then this would be where your supply/demand genius would come in. It could be built, it isn't rocket science.

3) Demand. So, we have a supply and a way of distributing it. Now we want to burn it in an internal combustion engine? Why? That is only half as efficient as using it in a fuel cell. Yeah, I know, there is no BMW engine technology in an electric motor, but the efficiency difference is double. So if we are doing this to get green, why use an IC engine?

So the BMW car isn't news, and it isn't a marketable product. It is intended to start debate, to get people thinking about the future. It does that quite well. But the news we should be watching for relates to the commercial production of hydrogen from sunlight, on a wide scale.