Early Oil Change on 35d?

[Destination: Moon]

Originally Posted by whyireef

I'm an avid engine professional. I've driven VW turbo-diesels for many years. In my VWs, I use Euro Elf seventh generation full synthetic and do the changes myself (even under warranty, I perform all maint/repairs myself) and I perform a 30 pt oil analysis via Caterpillar engineering after roughly 15,000 mls on each change and always completely change via extraction at 20k mls. I've logged more than 600,000 miles on 2 of these little VW diesels using synthetics. My current '05 now has 160k mls and runs better than the day it was new (compression wise).

So - my new X5 35d has 1,600 mls on it now and I don't plan on changing the oil earlier than the factory intervals. The Castrol synthetic BMW is using will easily go beyond 15k mls.

Lastly, myself and many colleagues have performed oil analysis on engines changed at 3k, 5k, 10k, and 20k mls. What we've found is early changes promote metal wear and other early engine wear (sounds counter to logic, but there really is a science behind it). I wouldn't change the oil in my X5 35d early if you paid me.

Whoa! Another contender enters the ring! Why would early changes promote wear?? These oils have so much chemistry that is for detergency and suspension that it seems illogical to get worse performance from changing early. How could that be?

[FunfDreisig]

Originally Posted by Destination: Moon;650111..

There few if any BMW dealers when you get away from the metro areas. Before heading out for a long trip it would be good to know the system was truly full. In another year, truck stops will have this stuff. But that is a ways out.

That is exactly why I confirmed that I could buy a bottle at my local dealership before we took any long trips into areas not heavily populated with BMW dealers.

FWIW I intended to buy a bottle at delivery. But the parts guy was not sure it could be safely stored in the 100+ degree temps we've been experiencing for the last few months. So I put it off until the fall or until we actually go on a real road trip

BTW there are two urea tanks: 'storage' - 4.5gal and 'active' - 1.6 gals. It is not clear (at least to me) which tank(s) is connected to the "user approved" refill connection in the engine compartment. My bet is that it is the active tank. So I'd be reluctant to add urea until I saw the warning.

Funf Dreisig

[whyireef]

Originally Posted by Destination: Moon

Whoa! Another contender enters the ring! Why would early changes promote wear?? These oils have so much chemistry that is for detergency and suspension that it seems illogical to get worse performance from changing early. How could that be?

I'm an expert at maintenance, but alas my chemistry knowledge isn't sufficient enough to answer.

However, I can say the oil engineers at Caterpillar explained it all perfectly, so I'll see if I can find what they said an post it here.

What I do know is the wear metals in the oil analysis are consistently elevated on same engine/same oil (euro produced synthetics) when changed at lower mile intervals. These newer synthetics don't suffer break down until after sometimes 30k miles, with 20k miles being a very reasonable sweet spot between too early and too late.

IIRC, the way it was explained to me, the oil in the bottle (new) isn't the oil your engine really needs. It's only after an initial oil break in (who knows precisely how long that is, but it takes a little while) that the oil is conditioned to do what it does best. It's during that initial oil break-in (different from engine break-in) that you will find the engine wearing a bit. Longer intervals keep that oil break-in period from unnecessarily wearing the engine.

Hope this makes sense. By the way, the Castrol synthetic BMW is using isn't your father's Castrol - it's the latest generation of Euro spec'd long-interval diesel synthetic (after an initial break-in, it lasts and lasts and lasts)

[FunfDreisig]

Originally Posted by whyireef

... By the way, the Castrol synthetic BMW is using isn't your father's Castrol - it's the latest generation of Euro spec'd long-interval diesel synthetic (after an initial break-in, it lasts and lasts and lasts)

I should hope so at $11+ /quart with the BMW CCA discount

The oil I bought at the BMW parts dept at my 35d delivery was "Castrol SLX Professional OE SAE 5W-30" Is that the same or comparable to the oils you have been using/describing?

Thanks in Advance - Funf Dreisig

[Destination: Moon]

Originally Posted by whyireef

I'm an expert at maintenance, but alas my chemistry knowledge isn't sufficient enough to answer.

However, I can say the oil engineers at Caterpillar explained it all perfectly, so I'll see if I can find what they said an post it here.

What I do know is the wear metals in the oil analysis are consistently elevated on same engine/same oil (euro produced synthetics) when changed at lower mile intervals. These newer synthetics don't suffer break down until after sometimes 30k miles, with 20k miles being a very reasonable sweet spot between too early and too late.

IIRC, the way it was explained to me, the oil in the bottle (new) isn't the oil your engine really needs. It's only after an initial oil break in (who knows precisely how long that is, but it takes a little while) that the oil is conditioned to do what it does best. It's during that initial oil break-in (different from engine break-in) that you will find the engine wearing a bit. Longer intervals keep that oil break-in period from unnecessarily wearing the engine.

Hope this makes sense. By the way, the Castrol synthetic BMW is using isn't your father's Castrol - it's the latest generation of Euro spec'd long-interval diesel synthetic (after an initial break-in, it lasts and lasts and lasts)

I'm so confused..... My brain hurts!!

[Lubehead]

What whyireef said is valid to a point. Unfortunately, many of us are held hostage to what our fathers believed in and what we have been told was right and true. Like so many other things in todays' world what we thought we knew is either no longer valid or simply does not apply.

Better metallurgy, superior manufacturing capabilities, closer tolerances, advances in fuel technology and government mandates restricting sulfur levels in conjunction with superior oil basestocks, and exceptional advances in additive technology, collectively trump the shameful promotion of 3k oil changes to the masses by quick change facilities and old school mechanic thinking that the oil must be changed at short intervals.

In industry, it has been proven that time based oil changes are an opportunity to introduce contamination, exposing a unit to substantial wear it would not have seen, had the oil been properly managed and monitored. Condition based oil changes are now a generally accepted practice in equipment and machinery with values far exceeding that of any automobile.

Internal combustion engines, be they compression or spark ignited create challenging conditions for today's lubricants. That said, today's lubricants are up to the task, designed to seal, clean, cool, resist corrosion, and reduce wear, they are designed and built to perform and protect. They do however have their limits.

Would you throw out a set of tires if they still had useful life as seen by the tread depth? The engine oils have a job to do and in the majority of applications where high quality lubricants are used (the big ? being what constitutes high quality) they are being discarded needlessly and wastefully as they still have additional life in them. We change oil in the majority of cases to satisfy a need that is perceived as the right thing to do but in the big picture (total lifecycle of the unit) adds no value.

The only true way to measure the optimum life of an oil is by using oil analysis and trending the results. Every application, every engine, gearbox, hydraulic system, air compressor, turbine etc., has its own unique wear rate which is directly related to the quality of the lubricant, the maintenance practices of the caretakers, the environment it is in and the demands that are made on the machine. We always want to change good oil, never "bad" or dirty oil, hence the reason for periodic oil changes. But these change intervals, many steeped in history and based on the "we always did it that way" thinking or "oil is cheap compared to parts" reasoning ignore the fact that we willfully throw away a valuable resource without hesitation many unknowing that substantial life is left.

The concept that changing oil early in an engine will do damage is foreign to me. Damage is being done to the environment, not the engine. However it must be said here that if the engine oil is not kept clean and proper storage and/or handling of the engine oil is not exercised, whyireef's point about damage is a valid one. Spectrometric analysis of engine oil and the interpretation of the results is left to professionals that understand the lubricant chemistry, the functions of various additives and any pecularities related to the specific application and its history.

The short story is change the oil in a (not too short) timely fashion and don't give it another thought, the facts though support the reality that changing the oil at 3 times longer what most people think is reasonable will have no negative impact on the unit in its typical lifespan. But the reality is one never knows what the appropriate interval is without an oil analysis program.

[JCL]

Originally Posted by Lubehead

The concept that changing oil early in an engine will do damage is foreign to me. Damage is being done to the environment, not the engine. However it must be said here that if the engine oil is not kept clean and proper storage and/or handling of the engine oil is not exercised, whyireef's point about damage is a valid one. Spectrometric analysis of engine oil and the interpretation of the results is left to professionals that understand the lubricant chemistry, the functions of various additives and any pecularities related to the specific application and its history.

Lubehead: I agree with many of your points, it is a well written summary. One comment is that oil analysis is a vital part of a condition-based monitoring program, but its use in consumer vehicles is often flawed. Individuals often take one sample, and look at the wear metals thinking that they provide a commentary on the oil quality, when what they really provide info on is the component that is wearing. Trending results over time provides valuable guidance, while single samples provide next to none and are oversold by the consumer oil labs. If we look to TBN, TAN, infrared, water/glycol contamination, fuel dilution, kinematic viscosity, and ISO particle count, we can learn about the oil. Users often don't purchase those tests, however, and fall back to trace element results.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that changing oil early will do damage, but there are many studies that show improved oil performance with use. The additives stabilize (they are aggressive when the oil is new), and so on. The lubricity of the oil isn't the only factor at work here, however, and viscosity degradation could offset any benefits realized in this sense, but there is enough evidence to suggest that more measurable wear metals in the first portion of the oil's life are somewhat to be expected. Here is one study. I used to belong to the SAE, but let it lapse, so I can't get the full study. The abstract follows.

https://shop.sae.org/technical/papers/2007-01-4133

Originally Posted by SAE Published Paper ref 2007-01-4133

Abstract:
Engine oils are subjected to a series of industry standard engine dynamometer tests to measure their wear protection capability, sludge and varnish formation tendencies, and fuel efficiency among several other performance attributes before they are approved for use in customer engines. However, these performance attributes are measured at the end of tests and therefore, do not provide any information on how the properties have changed during the tests. In one of our previous studies it was observed that engine oil samples collected from fleet vehicles after 12,000 mile drain interval showed 10-15% lower friction and more importantly, an order of magnitude lower wear rate than those of fresh oils. It was also observed that the composition of the tribochemical films formed was quite different on the surface tested with the drain oils from those formed with fresh oils. The objective of this investigation is to demonstrate how the friction and wear performance changed with oil drain intervals. A fleet of three vehicles was run in Las Vegas and oil samples were collected at various drain intervals from 3,000 miles to 15,000 miles. As in the previous study, the results showed that the aged engine oils provide lower friction and much improved wear protection capability. These improvements were observed as early as the 3,000 mile drain interval and continued to the 15,000 mile drain interval. The composition of tribochemical films formed on the surface with the 3,000 mile drain interval is similar to that formed with the 12,000 mile drain interval as seen before. These findings could be an enabler for achieving longer drain interval although several other factors must to be considered.

[FunfDreisig]

I won't even try to weigh in on the engineering aspects of modern engines, oils, etc. and whether they should be changed early. But....

Even if you completely buy into the conditions based oil changes and plan to only change the oil when your X5 tells you to. What about the filters? This is where the baddest of the bad boys of engine breakin should be in residence. Is it a good idea to change the oil filter early?

Funf Dreisig

[whyireef]

I must confess I am not a metallurgy or Chemistry expert, so the science behind oil is beyond my ability to fully explain.

I'm a fanatic and great with maintenance only because I use the right parts/tools and due diligence.

What I can attest to is how I've maintained my VW turbo-diesel engines. I use Elf (Euro) full synthetic oil (diesel spec'd for soot, etc.) and my change interval is 20,000 miles (I use extraction, not drain). I'm on my 3rd VW, with the first two making 280k and 320k (both engines still ran great). My current has more than 160k and is strong like bull (better compression than new).

My 20k oil changes in the VW's diesel engine is working great for me.

[soldmystang]

Originally Posted by whyireef

I must confess I am not a metallurgy or Chemistry expert, so the science behind oil is beyond my ability to fully explain.

I'm a fanatic and great with maintenance only because I use the right parts/tools and due diligence.

What I can attest to is how I've maintained my VW turbo-diesel engines. I use Elf (Euro) full synthetic oil (diesel spec'd for soot, etc.) and my change interval is 20,000 miles (I use extraction, not drain). I'm on my 3rd VW, with the first two making 280k and 320k (both engines still ran great). My current has more than 160k and is strong like bull (better compression than new).

My 20k oil changes in the VW's diesel engine is working great for me.

my question would be... what model year are these VW diesels?

it would seem from what i read that the more emission controls that are placed on these motors the less likely they will survive for 250k miles.

now as BMW and Mercedes have designed these new clean diesels utilizing this funky urea fluid, i am sure the engineers have some idea how long these motors will last. but when does the expense become prohibitive? hopefully it isn't two days after the factory warranty craps out.

the point of buying a diesel has always been longevity. and in many cases much better mileage per gallon. diesels are inherently more expensive as they cost more up-front, usually require more oil per change and filters must be constantly and vigilantly monitored.

but i wonder with this new urea fluid what the added cost will do to the value of these vehicles.