Turning the X5 off in an Emergency

[London Lad]

I don't think we are far away from black boxes in cars that store data for the previous few minutes on a rolling basis. In fact we may already have them. For instance Audi know if you have over revved a car during the running in period and the max speed it has travelled at and when.

[ard]

Originally Posted by London Lad

I don't think we are far away from black boxes in cars that store data for the previous few minutes on a rolling basis. In fact we may already have them. For instance Audi know if you have over revved a car during the running in period and the max speed it has travelled at and when.

Already in place....... Page 245 of the owners manual has a disclosure in it right now.

[RTC]

"Drive-by-wire" is nothing new, it is already a couple of years old and millions of cars worldwide are using this. One of Toyota's suppliers apparently messed things up, so I wouldn't worry too much.
Never heard of a problem with a BMW regarding this.

[London Lad]

Pre 2000 quite a few cars were 'drive by wire'. A lot had an accelerator with a cable to the engine compartment where it operated a potentiometer and not the throttle body.

[ard]

Originally Posted by RTC

"Drive-by-wire" is nothing new, it is already a couple of years old and millions of cars worldwide are using this. One of Toyota's suppliers apparently messed things up, so I wouldn't worry too much.
Never heard of a problem with a BMW regarding this.

Up until a few months ago, nobody heard of a problem with toyota regarding this. Had you posited a scenario of "Toyota will fail to fully validate a component they use in 50% of their cars and be forced to recall them" the response would have been..... ???

[X5rolls]

Originally Posted by JCL

No, they don't. Any they didn't have redundant systems for mechanical linkages used for the past 90 years or so, when the biggest danger was friction in the linkage, or floormat interference.

However, they do have a driver. And the driver has a brake pedal. Any automobile brakes, by design, are 3-4 times as powerful as automobile engines. That isn't true on a continuous basis (brakes will overheat and fade) but you have several stopping cycles available to you before that happens.

Simple steps if the accelerator sticks:
1) Don't lean down and try to unstick it.
2) Apply the brakes
3) Steer out of traffic, ie to the side of the road
4) Then, and only then, put it in neutral
5) Turn off the vehicle

Doing (4) or (5) before (2) and (3) risks incorrect gear selection (as noted in the example above) and a further loss of power steering and brakes if you do (5) before you are safely stopped.

It all comes down to untrained drivers, going into panic mode.

Putting a safety interlock into the system to make the brakes shut down the throttle is only useful if the driver is applying the brakes. Since the brakes can overpower the accelerator anyways, it is there for product liability/lawyer issues, and not as a practical benefit in most cases.

I think this is good advice but I don't agree with the order you have, I think delaying putting it into neutral could cause the driver to crash.

Attempting to hit the brakes (some engines can easily over power the brakes or the brakes might not be in top order, they are hot already, or substantially worn) and steer to the side of the road could make you lose control. You might be approaching other vehicles in front of you and by not slowing down (or enough because the brakes are not nearly as effective or not at all in some cases) the likelihood of hitting something is much higher. I think keeping it in gear un-necessarily increases the speed at which the car is traveling and the pace of decisions needed by the driver. Lastly, some drivers might even get into a bigger panic because they can't stop using the brakes or they can't slow the car down enough.

Shifting to neutral puts control back in the hands of the driver and doesn't require as forceful use of the brakes either as the car will begin to slow down on it's own, even if going down all but the steepest of hills.

Using neutral gives the driver additional time to bring the vehicle to a less panic based stop, they are not fighting the brakes and trying to steer a car that is on the verge of going out of control.

Removing the engine from the equation eliminates the immediate threat.

[Penguin]

The easiest solution?

Sell the X5 and buy a S1000RR instead, as it has an engine kill switch:

http://brammofan.files.wordpress.com...w-s1000rra.jpg

[ABMW]

Originally Posted by ChuckG

In one of the recent Toyota fatal incidents the floor mats had been put in the trunk because of the previous recall. I think they know that that one wasn't due to the floor mats.

Chuck

I don't, personally, believe there was ever a floor mat issue with any of their vehicles. You can read more about the debate herehttp://Autocoverup.com/#STS=g55gpc21.22jh, there are some interesting recordings made.

These recordings were made before Toyota recalled vehicles or admitted there was a drive-by-wire issue, as one owner's attempt to get Toyota to take notice.

They did not. A few months after this was posted, there was the off-duty, police officer incident in September, 09. Toyota still took no action.

It wasn't until now, many months later that they figured out what was going on.

I don't believe there was any coverup. On the other hand, I fully believe Toyota was aware of isolated instances of unintended accelerations. So, perhaps there was a "numbers" game going on.

In realty there are complaints dating back to 2004, with individuals here and there making as much noise as they could. For some, it must have been tough to make noise when they were dead. But the dead do speak, and there are going to be a lot of reinvestigations into every Toyota fatality that's taken place over the past few years, rightfully so.

I'm not a litigation hound, nor am I pounding the tables for attorneys to get involved. There are others will will do that. But, I do believe Toyota has liability there. They outsourced a main component to a Canadian company, which is fine.

Canada makes fantastic parts, when they want to and when they're monitored. The same goes for any company for that matter. If we were to start making parts for Airbus Planes, I would certainly hope the French would come to the U.S. to monitor our operations.

This monitoring, or quality control, was apparently lax.

BMW is also outsourcing some of its parts, and although I'm not familiar enough with the X70 (yet) to know which parts BMW makes and which parts they farm out, I'm going to guess that every automobile company is going to take a close look at their operations.

Financially this is going to be an ugly time for Toyota. I don't believe there were any coverups (at least I hope not), rather I believe there were individuals within Toyota who were "scratching their heads." Maybe they pondered too long, and there were needless deaths. Maybe.

Point being, the same thing could be going on with BMWs. To my knowledge it is not. But 6-months ago, to my knowledge Toyota built the most reliable vehicles in the world. 1.5 years ago, to my knowledge Honda also had the high build quality (until I purchased a Civic, and realized that the quality was several magnitudes lower than earlier Hondas I owned).

The point of this thread was not to get into a debate about which car company is good or which is bad.

They're all large entities with good people and a bad people, but overall I believe they're all concerned with human safety and the overwhelming majority of autoworkers put an overwhelming amount of effort into making sure the vehicles they produce protect the lives of their occupants at all times.

Unfortunately, despite our best efforts, and testing, parts fail. In particular electronics fail. In 1990, I would have never dreamed we would have the level of electronics in vehicles that we do today. With any rapid rise comes trials and tribulations.

I'm not suggesting that there is a problem with BMW X5s. The purpose of this thread, to reframe it, is simply to suggest that it's important to know what to do, when and if, you ever experience unintended accelerations.

The consensus I'm getting is

1) DRIVE THE VEHICLE, DRIVE THE VEHICLE, DRIVE THE VEHICLE!
2) Put it into neutral
3) Safely apply the brakes
4) safely pull over to the side of the road
5) Shut off the vehicle
6) Call road side assistance
7) DO NOT DRIVE the vehicle, until it's repaired period.

This advice should work for most, if not all vehicles on the road today.

From what I've read in the Wall Street Journal, heard on NPR and experienced myself, putting the vehicle into neutral is the easiest and safest course of action.

Personally, I am comfortable with that. I am also comfortable with shutting the vehicle off.

But, our vehicles accelerate quite quickly. Given that many of us cruise at 80 on the freeway (especially those of us in the West) where speed limits are 75 mph in many places, it takes but a few seconds to reach 100.

Assuming it takes a moment or two to figure out what's going on, one has seconds to react.

So, while some of you have suggested you have no intention of practicing this with your own vehicles, I would ask that you reconsider.

At the very least, when it's appropriate and safe, I would suggest that you at least practice the hand movements required to take your hand off the wheel, and move the vehicle shift-lever into neutral, WHILE STILL MAINTAINING FULL EYE CONTACT WITH THE ROAD.

You can do this while parked in your garage. The car need not be moving.

The more you practice, the safer you'll be, in the VERY RARE CHANCE that you experience an unintended acceleration in your X5 or in a rental car for that matter.

It's always wise to be prepared, especially given the rapid rise of electronics within our vehicles, which in 15 years are going to appear archaic, unreliable, and downright goofy. We'll wonder why we did things the way we did (the way we're doing things now). But that's the way the world works, and it's wise to be aware in my opinion, especially when operating a motor vehicle of any brand.

My $0.02 - continued.

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by ABMW

BMW is also outsourcing some of its parts, and although I'm not familiar enough with the X70 (yet) to know which parts BMW makes and which parts they farm out, I'm going to guess that every automobile company is going to take a close look at their operations.

The vast majority of all vehicle parts are outsourced by auto manufacturers, e.g., With BMW most, if not all, transmissions are outsourced, and some of their engines are also outsourced. Seat assemblies, alternators, radiators, hoses, injectors, fuel pumps, gauges, radios, glass, carpets, wheels, tires, brakes, etc. Heck, even the assembly of the X3 itself was outsourced.

On the X5, the entire front fender assemblies are apparently outsourced and shipped to the factory as a painted assembly (Page 17 of the attached link):

http://www.bharatbook.com/upload/aut...ufacturers.pdf

[JCL]

Originally Posted by ABMW

But, I do believe Toyota has liability there. They outsourced a main component to a Chinese company, which is fine.

China makes fantastic parts, when they want to and when they're monitored. The same goes for any company for that matter. If we were to start making parts for Airbus Planes, I would certainly hope the French would come to the U.S. to monitor our operations.

Why all the nationalistic fervour? Hasn't it been clearly established that the throttle component was built by CTS, an American company? In this case, the CTS plant it came from was in Canada. Regardless, the design was a Toyota design, not a CTS design. It would appear to be a design issue, not a manufacturing issue. CTS also makes these parts for many other vehicle manufacturers. I would be surprised if any automobile manufacturer made their own throttle pedal assemblies.

Now, to make it interesting, the CTS part has an apparent issue with a slow return, which is very different than a throttle application. CTS has a press release out which further clarifies the situation.

It is obvious that we still don't know what the cause is.

CTS News Release