Can someone describe a basic amp setup?

[NextGen]

Scenario - Replace Business CD, MID, & DSP amp with all aftermarket components. Assume an aftermarket receiver with RCA outputs.

I am not looking for specific products here; but if you want to mention them then go right ahead. I am interested in a typical setup. For example, 4 channel amp with 4 passive crossovers and another amp to drive a 10" sub-woofer.

How would you hook it up? Would you connect some speakers in a parallel fashion? Would you not wire the rear speakers? The DSP system has 10 speakers plus 2 sub-woofers. Would you drive the 10? if so, how would you configure the amp(s)?

Please offer as much information as possible in terms of how the different components connect.

[el_duderino]

Some great questions here, and this has the makings of a great and long-lived thread if it breaks correctly.

Originally Posted by NextGen

Scenario - Replace Business CD, MID, & DSP amp with all aftermarket components. Assume an aftermarket receiver with RCA outputs.

Got it. Don't have to replace the OEM receiver, the Bus CD isn't bad, but got it. There's a guy who has a website selling custom bezels to mount aftermarket gear into the X5 dash opening. Looks great.

Originally Posted by NextGen

The DSP system has 10 speakers plus 2 sub-woofers. Would you drive the 10?

I would usually not use every speaker provision in the X5.

The pros and cons of the three-way BMW speaker architecture used in the E36, E46, E39, X5, etc., have been debated over and over (there's some great posts on bimmerforums about this).

Confining the discussion to the X5:

The 6.5 provision in the bottom of the door will take many (not all, but many) Euro 165mm frames. However, it's a bad place for upper midrange to try to come from. It's low in the door, and the seats in the X are tall - but also, speakers have a performance phenomenon called "beaming" - as they play higher and higher notes, their off-axis performance gets worse and worse, or, stated another way, their output gets narrower and narrower like a flashlight beam. This is a physics law that is governed by the diameter of the driver and the frequencies being played - you can't design it out. You can make it less objectionable by designing a woofer with a rising response at the top end - but all the response curves I've ever seen for speakers that do this show a ragged response curve up there.

So BMW's response was to install a cone mid in the top of the dash and a tweeter playing only very high notes in the inboard part of the side mirror sail.

The cone mid they use is not anything that is used by mainstream suppliers and is almost impossible to replace directly.

On top of that, any three-way woofer/mid/tweeter system becomes complicated with relative loudnesses and what not. The DSP amp has specific output channels for each driver, with each one tuned to a specific output level (edited to add: for the impedance and efficiency of the OEM driver, AND only playing a narrow band of notes for that specific driver).

If you DID put together a midwoofer/midrange/tweeter combo that fit into the locations, you would need to address the physical disparity of the various drivers. It would be sily to expect most passive crossover designers to have expected this configuration. The best results would be obtained by using dedicated channels for the midwoofers and the mids and tweeters - but that's not cheap.

What we've done in the X5 and in other BMWs is to use a soft-dome tweeter that plays low into the upper midrange, and position it in the dash, and leave out the side tweeters entirely (the BMW tweeter is very small and it's very hard to get good aftermarket tweeters in there). This then allows use of a 165mm midwoofer that is not explected to handle as much of that midrange vocal/horn/string detail. Simpler setup, but using far better components. I recommend a crossover freq of 1800 to 3000, and components that work well in this config include Dynaudio, DLS, Morel, Hertz of Italy, and a few others.

When you use MBQuart or Focal or some others with high crossover points, you get a hole in the midrange in the X5 that leaves out a lot of detail.

Originally Posted by NextGen

Would you not wire the rear speakers?

If you would let me I would not wire the rear speakers. Rear speakers diffuse the stereo image, which in the above scenario would be in the windshield most of the time, and since your right ear has a clear shot at the passenger rear door, the front stage effect would be ruined.

But if you strenuously objected and just had to have rear speakers, I would use a really good point-source speaker and leave the top mid holes in the door unused. The Morel Integra 6 is the finest automotive coaxial available and that's what I would use if we could afford $400 for the speaker and another $200-350 or so for additional amplifier channels.

Short of that, DLS, Hertz, and Morel maoe good $150-$200 coaxials. I would avoid the components to A) lowerthe tweeter, and B) save money for the front components, which are FAR more important from a sound quality point of view.

Originally Posted by NextGen

Would you connect some speakers in a parallel fashion?

Not sure what you mean here, but in a sense, we would. Whenever tweeters and midwoofers are used with passive crossovers, they are technically in parallel from a wiring point of view, but not from an impedance overlay point of view - the job of the passive crossover is to prevent these speakers from being seen as a parallel load on common frequencies. That probably made no sense, don't worry about it.

Originally Posted by NextGen

Please offer as much information as possible in terms of how the different components connect.

OK, here we go.

HU - if it's OEM, the balanced outputs from the aft-mounted tuner module go into a balanced-compatible amplifier, OR a balanced adapter (some LOCs do this, the Zapco BTL does this), OR into a Jensen Transformers Iso-Max isolator.

From there we would go into either a 3,4,5, or 6-channel amp, or two amps. I would choose amps that will fit under the load floor (is yours the sliding or the lift-out?) and probably that have fan cooling if possible.

The output of the fronts would go to a passive crossover that is also in the back area, the outputs of those would go to the tweeter and door woofer wires. Door mid wires are unused.

Then I would use as robust a 6.5 as would readily go in the front door. For example, the Dynaudio MW160 woofer is a lot of work to install, the MW160GT is not very much work to install. Does the non-GT sound better than the GT? Maybe a little, I don't know, but it's not worth the work in my opinion - the GT sounds great.

If you are going with the tweeter in the top of the dash, almost everything fits. The huge Scan-Speak Alpine F1 and the Dyne Esotar and the Morel Supremo don't fit, but darn near everything else does.

The actual architecture is a function of budget. At $2K installed, my choices are very different than they are at $5K installed. At the lower prices, I might suggest robust 6.5s all round and no subwoofer.

If you were a client of ours, I would ask for you to decide on rears, on budget, and on the HU. I personally think that I can get the X to sound damn good with the Business CD.

Here's one we did (the amps have since been replaced)
http://www.xoutpost.com/stereo-system...005-4-8is.html

[NextGen]

These is a really good breakdown. I agree that the Business CD is not bad. I actually don't have a problem with the sound quality of it. My issue is I need navigation, iPod control, XM, yada yada yada. So the factory system has to go.

I don't have much experience with installing amps and I was just trying to familiarize myself with the basics. I have never seen anything quite like this factory amp setup.

The question about connecting the speakers in parallel was just me trying to figure out how can you push 10 speakers with a 4-channel amp? I figured you would have to connect multiple speakers to one channel. But if you did it in parellel then you could exceed the ohm capacity of the amp. I now understand that passive crossovers will take care of this issue.

By the way, I have the standard lift-out floor.

I would say that my system needs are fairly light. If the factory system had decent navigation then I would have gotten an X5 with navigation and just upgraded the speakers. With that said, I don't mind paying $2000 for a good music system. I have already paid over $2000 for my Pioneer components along which include the AVIC-Z1, GEX-P10XMT (XM, XM NavTraffic), CD-IB100II (iPod controller), and ND-BC1 (backup camera). I am not the kind of person who buys a $60,000 car and then skimps on the music.

As you can probably detect I am a DIY kind of guy. But after reading this write up I have decided to let the pros install my system.

If you were in the Phoenix, AZ area I would look you up. Can you recommend anyone in this area?

[Fr0zty]

el_duderino that's the biggest post i have ever seen you are a God my man

[justintmn]

Glad to hear another X5 owner from AZ. After much research, advises from Ken (www.avincar.com) and much much debate, I decided to go all out with the upgrades , which start out originally as a the speaker upgrade only). Man, after I listened to the Dynaudio line, I am hooked.
I got the components already. So far, I got the Dynaudio System 340, Dynaudio MK 240, McIntosh MCC406, a graphic EQ Pioneer DEQ-9200 that I used to have. I have DSP and probably will use the LC8 Audio Control to get my pre-amp output. I currently have 12W6V2 run off a JL500/1 but still not sure to just run this subwoofer off the channel 5 & 6 of the McIntosh MCC406, or keep the subwoofer set up and use the McIntosh MCC406 to power all the other speakers.

It was quite tough to retrofit and install the 7" mid-woofer but they are installed in the front doors. I have not installed the amp yet but I already notice a big differences after changing out the speakers. I plan to put the tweeters on the dashboard like Ken did and put the mid-range speaker in the rear door but not sure how that will work out. Any suggestion, Ken?

Justin.

[el_duderino]

Originally Posted by justintmn

Any suggestion, Ken?

Justin.

Yes, several, but you probably won't listen to them this time either : ) (I told you how hard the cast frame 6.5 would be! The 160GT is MUCH easier : )

I politely suggest that the above is a terrible idea.

The System 340 has a 165mm woofer, a BIG dome mid, and a smaller (but not SMALL) dome tweeter.

All three drivers have to be up front for the System 340 to work. If you shove the mid aft, you ruin the sound. Call Dynaudio and ask them : )

Once you go with the 340, the Dyne passive crossovers do NOT play the tweeter as low as the System 240 crossovers do. This means a lot of the effect of putting a low-playing tweeter in the dash is lost. I'd rather have a 240 with a top-mounted tweet than a 340 with a dome mid in the bottom of the car.

The tonal quality of the 340 is great. But for a high stereo image in your car, best results are obtained with either the mid and tweet really high in the car (hard without significant mods) or with the mid and tweet in angled kick panel enclsoures with proper alignment (not cheap, but Signature can do it for you no problem).

And why, why, why are you spending money on some of the best, and most expensive, speakers ever made and yet you won't get rid of the damned AudioControl LC8! Lose it! Running the audio through the DSP amp adds layers of distortion and processing that are incredibly hard to get out and reverse, whether you have a Clean Sweep, 360, or anything else.

Since we built the original X5 system I posted about here, we've bypassed the DSP, we've retuned it several times, and we've upgraded all the amplifiers.

Bypassing the DSP made for the biggest impact in SQ. No question.

Anyone who uses an LC8 in a DSP car can use it to create a line-level signal that is summed together (although you still won't have a fader).

But what are you going to now do with this signal? It's heavily EQ'd, it has lots of phase cancellation problems (before and after the summing - BMW runs some drivers out of phase with others), it's not something that can be easily reversed - and I'd like to see the Audio Precision phase measurement of a "flat" output of a JL CleanSweep used in this situation.

We used a parametric EQ to flatten the signal, and it worked OK, but bypassing the whole DSP thing yielded far, far better sounding results.

OK, my coffee's wearing off, but I gotta say, you are spending a lot of money on speakers but you don't seem to have a very good plan at all.

[el_duderino]

Originally Posted by NextGen

If you were in the Phoenix, AZ area I would look you up. Can you recommend anyone in this area?

I would talk to Signature Audio (www.signatureaudiousa.com).

And while I doubt that it would fit into that budget range, I'd ask them about a stealthed 10 in the rear side panel.

[NextGen]

Thanks Ken, I'll check them out. I have flexibility in my budget so nothing is ruled out. It is just a matter of if I want to spend another $3000 and up on amps and speakers.

[justintmn]

Uh oh, I think I walk the wrong path then. Ken, is there anyway to salvage the use of the 340 system. I think the tweeter drivers for System 240 and 340 are the same. Do you think it will work if I used your custom made cross over that can play down to 2500Hz (like you did for the other X5) so I can mount the tweeter in the dash and save my mid-range for some other applications?

I think I am going to ditch the LC8 Audio Control Idea too and go your way with the Jensen Isomax. One more thing, Ken, the pre-out wires from the DSP amp that you mention, are they the one from the module right behind the battery like Aus showing here http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...9&d=1089180285 and here (close up picture) http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...0&d=1089180355 or at the amp? Thank you so much for your help, Ken.

Justin.

[el_duderino]

I can't open the links, but the wires travel FROM the tuner preamp module under the spare TO the amp. Opposite ends, same wire. If you are adding the second set of outputs you need to go to the tuner.