COVID Vaccination Hesitancy
 

Now in early July 2021, with the Delta variant of the COVID-19 virus expected to become the dominant version of the virus in the next few months, the concerns of the threat of the virus spreading even faster to those still unvaccinated have increased dramatically. It is the most transmissible version of the virus so far, especially in the areas of the country where the total vaccination rate is still quite low and at significant risk.

We now know that it is not just catching the virus and dealing with its immediate health concerns, but the growing number of adverse after effects to the health of people of all ages, once they are lucky enough to survive and essentially recover, referred to as “long-haul symptoms”. Those symptoms and affects include shortness of breath, chest pain, physical fatigue, compromised sense of smell, reduced lung capabilities and diminished mental/cognitive functions described as “brain fog”. I assume we will continue to learn more as time goes by.

What is very disheartening to me is a recent national poll that indicated that just over a quarter of those surveyed said that even now, they have decided to still not get vaccinated. While I can understand their earlier reluctance to getting vaccinated, based on mis-information, false myths and lack of trust of government officials, it makes no sense now. The vast majority of trusted messengers, specifically health professionals, including doctors and nurses, are in agreement that the possible health risks associated with the vaccine’s pales in comparison to the potential detrimental and deadly affects of the COVID-19 virus to those who are not vaccinated.

I get it that Americans have always been an individualistic people who don’t like being told what to do. But in times of crisis, they have historically still had the capacity to form what Alexis de Tocqueville called a “social body,” a coherent community capable of collective action. The basic sense of “peoplehood”, of belonging to a common enterprise with a shared destiny, is exactly what’s lacking today. Researchers and reporters who talk to the vaccine-hesitant find that the levels of distrust, suspicion and alienation that have marred our politics are now slowing down the vaccination process. They find people who doubt the competence of the medical establishment or any establishment, who assume as a matter of course that their fellow countrymen are out to con, deceive and harm them.

This mentality, epitomized by the sentiment of: “the only person you can trust is yourself”, has a tendency to cause people to conceive of themselves as individuals and not as citizens. A recent survey of people who were refusing to get a COVID-19 vaccine revealed that they often used an arguments such as: “I’m not especially vulnerable. I may have already gotten the virus. If I get it in the future, it won’t be that bad. Why should I take a risk on an experimental vaccine?” They are thinking and reasoning, mostly on a personal basis, about what’s right for them as individuals more than what’s right for the nation and the most vulnerable people in it. It’s not that they have rebuked their responsibilities as citizens; it apparently never occurred to them that they might have any. When asked to think in broader terms, they seemed surprised and off balance.

For me, the overwhelming relief of now being fully vaccinated, (having eagerly received the two doses of the Pfizer vaccine back in March 2021), is that now I do not have to worry as much about catching the virus, but also about harboring the COVID-19 virus asymptomatically and passing it on to someone else, especially a family member who has a compromised immune system, causing them to get sick. At this point, I believe that with just few exceptions, everyone should get vaccinated.

I recognize, but disagree that general public safety concerns should take religious beliefs into account, as an excuse to not getting vaccinated. I accept that there are some people who have legitimate health issues that would preclude their getting vaccinated. But for everyone else, stop the silly bribing inducements by various States. We are now at the point where I believe that the local, state and federal governments should mandate that the reluctant, the recalcitrant and the reckless, all get inoculated against this virus so we can finally get this world-wide pandemic under control. Let employers make being vaccinated a requirement for working there. Also, let retailers of all sizes, determine whether or not their customers need to wear face coverings in order to enter and patronize their stores. While personal freedoms should be protected, they should not be ranked higher than the healthy well-being of the broader community in our country. This vaccination issue is not about individuals, but about all of us, collectively living and working together.

Alas, I am afraid that even if what I am advocating does occur, there will still be a significant number of Americans who will still refuse to get vaccinated. Then, what we may ultimately experience is what philosophers Hebert Spencer, Charles Darwin and Adam Smith have simplistically theorized as “survival of the fittest”. This speculation can also be interpreted as survival of the most intelligent, those who seek out honest, truthful, factual information based on both science and experience. The people who have been vaccinated have observed, understand and acknowledge the high degree of protection against the virus that the vast majority of people who have been vaccinated against COVID-19, are proving to be mostly immune to the spreading virus or, if they catch it, their symptoms are not as serious. The odds are against the people who refuse to get vaccinated since they will be much more susceptible to catch the Delta variant of the COVID-19 virus and suffer its consequences and either die or suffer long-term health issues. The sad reality is that this likely outcome is avoidable if these people were not as naïve, ignorant or untrusting of science and would just get vaccinated.

AVB-AMG

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I disagree that a federal (or state) mandate should be issued for vaccinating. That's un-Constitutional. Employers can't mandate it because if violates HIPAA laws. Schools should be able to as they have for a number of other illnesses/diseases, nothing new there.

Honestly, I can take care of me and my family. That's all I need. I'll feel a bit better after my kids can get vaccinated (<12yo) but we're home schooling the one in school until that's an option. We respect other's rights to care for themselves and their families in the way they see fit. Hopefully nothing happens to them, but if it does, a choice was made. And that's America, having choices. Just as with us taking the vaccine, if something happens, a choice was made. We all weigh our choices. Where I lose respect for people, is when they base a health care decision on politics. Or any decision really. Because at the end of the day, most politicians from both sides don't care what happens to you or me as long as their campaign contributions keep coming in.

crystalworks:

Aside from my personal beliefs and preferences, there is a very important question that is being asked, with differing answers:
"Can Employers Require or Mandate that their Employees be Fully Vaccinated?"

If an employer wants its workers back in the office, can it require or mandate that they be fully vaccinated against COVID-19 before they come back? And if a reluctant worker refuses to get immunized, can an employer show them the door? From my research, there is no federal law specifically addressing that issue so the matter remains up to private businesses, state, local or other applicable laws, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

There is confusion as to whether or not HIPAA prevents employers from requiring vaccination as a prerequisite for employment. HIPAA, the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996, applies to what the Department of Health and Human Services refers to as “covered entities” — and to certain organizations and people who do business with those entities. HIPAA applies to health plans and most health care providers who work for covered entities and are themselves required to follow HIPAA because the law expressly applies to them.

Certain organizations DO NOT have to follow privacy and security rules contained within HIPAA, such as life insurance companies, employers, workers’ compensation carriers, schools, state agencies, police agencies, and local municipal governments. Employers can ask you for your information under HIPAA, but if they ask the doctor for the information directly, the doctor cannot give it out. Doctors are covered entities, but employers are not. One’s employer’s ability to dig into your health information and health care records is more thoroughly covered by equal employment laws and not by HIPAA.

Keep in mind that people have to reveal medical information all the time. HIPAA does not grant each American medical patient a universal shield against the passing of medical data. Employers have a legal right question whether job candidates are fit for service. For example, schools can ask bus drivers whether they can see properly with or without corrective lenses. Airlines can ask pilots whether they have a history of seizures. Railroad engineers can be required to take drug tests. Police officers and Firefighters are required to prove physical fitness. Medical examinations are often attached to such employment. HIPAA does not ban the asking of such questions or the gleaning of such data.

Also, on June 1, 2021, The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) stated that employers can now order their employees to receive the COVID-19 vaccination shot, provided that they comply with the reasonable accommodation provisions of the American with Disabilities Act (ADA), religious exceptions, and other laws. The justification for allowing employers to mandate vaccinations is based upon the logical and strong premise that unvaccinated employees present a “direct threat” to others in the workplace. It is also very likely that in the near future, the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) will promulgate COVID-19, related health and safety rules that employers are required to adhere too. Currently, OSHA is relying on the Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) for guidance pertaining to vaccinated and unvaccinated employees.

Before requiring employees be vaccinated, employers should be aware that an employee who does not get vaccinated due to a disability (covered by the ADA), or a sincerely held religious belief, practice, or observance, (covered by Title VII), may be entitled to a reasonable accommodation that does not pose an undue hardship on the operation of the employer’s business. The EEOC has recommended the following “reasonable accommodations” for employees who cannot get vaccinated: masking, working at a social distance from coworkers or non-employees, working modified shifts, getting periodic tests for COVID-19, teleworking, or reassigning the employee.

Employees cannot cite their societal, political, economic philosophies, as well as personal preferences as a reason not to get vaccinated if their employer mandates vaccinations.

Therefore, from all of this, I do believe that the bottom line is that employers generally have the right to mandate that their employees get vaccinated for COVID-19 virus as a prerequisite for employment, abiding by the stipulations I noted above. So if the current or prospective employee does not want to get vaccinated or if they cannot show proof of being vaccinated, then they will have to find employment somewhere else. You and others have a different interpretation, understanding and belief. Therefore, I think the reality is that since the legislatures in many states are currently in the process of enacting legislation to prevent this from happening, the fate of this question will most likely be ultimately decided in the courts.

AVB-AMG

I agree, the courts will ultimately decide it. And seeing as how the Supreme Court is conservative, patient's privacy will be upheld and employers will not be able to require vaccinations excepting in very specific industries. That's my guess anyway.

HIPAA's privacy stipulations are very limiting as to what can be shared by physicians and to whom, or asked for by employers, and when they may be asked for. I worked in a health care provider's corporate office for a short while. And my wife works for a large financial institution. Employers who are not considered "covered entities" can not access a person's personal health information without consent from that individual. They are not even allowed to ask reasons for sick leave other than to require a doctor's note (which will not stipulate the illness causing the leave, only the length of required leave).

Of course. Just because it is okay for requirement that a pilot have 20/20 vision by an employer, doesn't mean it would be okay for a bank to require employees be vaccinated. Apples and oranges.

There are few exceptions that I would be okay with requiring vaccinations. Health care providers (specifically in a hospital setting or assisted living/hospice), schools/day care centers, and the military. I do, however, feel it is okay for employers to require masks be worn on/at the job/workplace. That requires no HIPAA information and could be considered part of a uniform requirement.

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1. It is not "unconstitutional" to require vaccinations.



2. This HIPAA bullshit is tiring. I work in this space. Dumb people feel compelled to make this way more complex than it is.



"will you tell me if you are vaccinated?"


People that refuse to answer will not be offered employment. Just ASKING is not a hipaa violation.




(edit: if an employer is told your status. THAT info is THEN subject to HIPAA protection. They need to guard it. And trust me, there WILL be a HIPAA disclosure clause for you to sign at the interview.)


Remember folks...this isnt about whether YOU 'feel' OK with being asked or what you "feel" is an acceptable level of medical info being shared with an employer.


These people screaming about "HIPAA Violations!!!!" are just hysterical. (I love how some sports figures- NFL mostly- are telling reporters their questions are hipaa violations)

Did some more reading on it and you are right. HIPAA does not prevent an employer for asking about or requiring vaccinations.

Still not something I'd want to be commonplace... but what I want is not important, what is legal is.

Heard this recently....




"Well, it turns out it was a stroke of genius to put the tracking nanobots into the horse paste..."

"horse paste." What a joke.

?
Not sure whats up.... first, my use was in the context of a one-liner joke. As you might imagine, there are a few options for word choice there, depending on what it is you are trying to achieve with the joke. So dunno


Turns out we have a good stock of ivermectin in the barn. I was joking with my wife we could pop it on ebay, maybe get a nice dinner out of it. She wants to keep it just in case the horses get covid. Or something like that.

Your post, which is a fantastic summary was in July. It is now November and is still valid. The points of view have become a little narrower as some of the excuses, the politics, the misinformation and conspiracy theories have been so thoroughly debunked that even the most extreme of vaccine haters don't use them anymore.

But changes are far from enough and my opinion is the remaining citizens against the vaccine are never going to embrace the vaccine. I too support mandates to protect those that refuse to be vaccinated from themselves and more importantly the majority of the country that have been vaccinated and follow the guidelines. It's not so much how they can impact the vaccinated but that the longer we take to reach a level of herd immunity the longer there will be self inflicted compromises to everyones' freedom.

I don't have any hope that anything worthwhile is going to change without more bottom up penalties and top down mandates. At some point insurance carriers are going to make cost of coverage and insurability decisions based on being vaccinated or not. Or worse yet, spread the cost around to include those that protected themselves rather than invited COVID infection. While not all COVID related, I expect the supply train to continue to be a major issue that will restrict new job growth and contribute to inflation.

I wonder what those that are anti vaccine think is the solution to the COVID interference on our freedom. What would they do to get COVID under control? How do we get back to normal?

bcredliner:

Thank you for your response. It is sad to think that in the four months since I posted my long-winded opinion on COVID-19 vaccinations, that we are still at a point where a significant number of people still refuse, for all sorts of reasons, not to get vaccinated. At least now children of parents who know better, can finally get a lower dosage vaccination to add them to the immunized. Granted, we now also realize that being vaccinated does not necessarily mean that one will not catch the COVID-19 virus, since we have seen many break-through cases of those who have been vaccinated. But the science seems to be holding true that the vast majority of those breakthrough cases are not that severe and that those infected are for the most part not having to be hospitalized. We know that getting the COVID-19 vaccine is not going to mean that one is 100% immune to getting the virus… no vaccine is completely effective. But if it turns out that going forward, that we may need to get some sort of COVID-19 booster vaccination on an annual basis, along with an influenza vaccination, then so be it. I also find it amazing that those who are still not vaccinated do not look at the statistics in every state where over 90-95% of those people who are hospitalized with the COVID-19 virus were NOT vaccinated. That really should tell you all you need to know about getting vaccinated. Yet unfortunately, there is a hard-core segment of the U.S. population who are stubbornly and adamantly against getting vaccinated and will not get any vaccine, regardless of whether or not employers, professional sporting events, musical concerts or restaurants, museums or other cultural institutions require proof of vaccination in order to gain admittance. They are gambling that they will survive this virus pandemic without suffering too badly. It is a low odds chance they are taking in that choice, IMHO. Why take such an unnecessary chance with one’s health and life?

FYI, I now have mixed feelings about mandates for getting the COVID-19 vaccine. I think that the private sector, meaning any private companies, firms, cultural institutions, hospitals, Doctor’s offices, educational institutions, retail and hospitality establishments, and entertainment venues are all perfectly within their legal rights to impose mandates that their employees and patrons, guests and visitors all show proof of COVID-19 vaccination in order to be employed or gain entry and admittance. I recently attended a professional NFL football game where every fan of the 60,000 who entered the stadium, was required to show their CDC issues COVID-19 vaccination card as proof of vaccination. That gave me a level of comfort that I needed to attend, as well as the fact that it was an outdoor venue.

I am now concerned that with more States imposing vaccination mandates, as well as the Federal government that it could be a political disaster in the making, giving the Republicans one more issue to trumpet in the coming elections in 2022 and 2024. I am sympathetic to some of the arguments that the Federal government is overstepping its authority, even if they have valid, good intentions. While I do think that the U.S. armed services should be able to require all of their troops to be vaccinated, I am not so sure about local law enforcement offices and firefighters. It is a complicated, slippery-slope that has no elegant solution, since taking a hard line could very well lead to some unwanted consequences. Time will tell….

So, at this point, while we may possibly see a 5th surge of the number of people testing positive for the virus as we enter the winter months of 2021/2022, I do think that even with continued virus mutations, that our country will slowly evolve to the majority of our population either being fully vaccinated, (two shots, plus a booster shot), or those who have caught the COVID-19 virus and whose bodies have generated some natural antibodies against the virus. Yet even with that case, we will continue to have serious infections and deaths that probably could have been prevented with people choosing to become vaccinated. Another real concern that I have, which will only be learned in the coming months/years, is exactly what the detrimental effects are on one’s body and mind due to “Long COVID”, the lingering, long-term and/or after effects of having caught the COVID-19 virus.

AVB-AMG

It's nice to hear that one can look at the information as it comes in and evolve views in response to that. I have also changed my opinions/thoughts on mandates and different requirements in the private sector. Much of which echo yours.

We chose a different decision to those who remain unvaccinated (though we are waiting a few months for our children's vaccines as they do not attend public school or day care and my son won't be eligible til January so waiting for them both) for myself and my family. All have access to the data/information available now and can make their own conclusions. It's their risk after all, not mine, given the efficacy of the vaccines. I wish them the best and hope there are no ill consequences. Same as I hope there are no long term consequences to getting the vaccine. I doubt there will be, but... time will tell. Combine the vaccine efficacy with wearing masks indoors and not attending large indoor gatherings and I feel my family and I are fairly safe. The fear of the pandemic has faded into an exhaustion as I hear the two different sides attacking each other and devolving into the typical "us vs. them" tribe mentality. But, that's the world we live in.

Requirements for entry into venues, large and small businesses are a better solution than mandates but I don't believe that will do enough soon enough.

I'm still for federal mandates that are based on a level of infection in a given area, a trigger point. If all states and local governments followed the recommended guidelines it wouldn't be necessary but they clearly don't. Keep the state rate of infection below a threshold or mandates kick in. If a state can control the level of infection without mandates that's great. If they can't or won't more extensive measures are appropriate anyway. Trigger point is when the rate of infection exceeds 1 person infecting more than 2 two others. IMO, mandates with trigger points should be a bill voted on by congress and see which way it goes. A national health crisis should not involve politics but it seems clear that if politics were removed from the table we would have be in far better place than we are now. For the most part, the COVID us verses them, the tribal behavior, is political party based.

I am not in the camp of each to their own, whatever will be will be. While this nation has been arguing and postering and spitting out overwhelming misinformation and lies without any consequences, attacking political competitors based on their COVID position, etc, we have lost 3/4 of a million citizens. Put one coffin in each X5 and they would stretch almost coast to coast. Will a million take the politics out of it? 1.5? 3? Will there be enough X5s to put coffins in? The freedom of those that have been vaccinated is restricted not only because of the non vaccinated but because our political tribes have taken the issue outside of any concept of how a successful democracy works. IMO waiting for the natural order of things, time or only the strong survive to decide what prevails is out of the question.

I hear loud and clear the anti-vaccine 'rationale' about why they aren't vaccinated. What I would like to hear from them is what we should do to get COVID under control. The easy part is to disagree with vaccination. The hard part is to have an alternative solution that has merit. Since they are so adamant about not being vaccinated, what is their solution to get COVID under control?

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...irus-vaccines/

To the bolded, how, specifically?

And to the italicized/underlined, this happened before Trump and coronavirus were a thing. Welcome to post-Citizens United American politics.

I believe individual responsibility is a dead concept in America. Which makes me sad. I don't want regulation to save every life or prevent every accident. I won't even go on a lake anymore because the park police suck all the fun and risk (and funds from my wallet) out of the activity. Will never own a boat or personal water craft (even though I really enjoy those things) because the bureaucracy involved to enjoy such things is out of control.

Take the Astroworld tragedy. Is it a tragedy? Of course. Are each of those concert goers as culpable as the promoters? Yeah, this wasn't a Celine Dion concert. They undertook a risky activity. The father whose poor 9yo just died should be charged with child endangerment. But I'm ranting now... excuse the rum-charged tangent.

The CDC and all of the pharma companies have stated that the vaccine does NOT prevent you from getting the virus and it does NOT prevent you from transmitting it.

So what about the instance where one has had the virus, had mild or no symptoms and is a generally healthy individual? That person now has immunity (perhaps not as strong as the vaccine provides but that's still being evaluated). The vaccine which is likely 99.999999% safe has not undergone the necessary medical trials (decades worth) to state with absolute certainty that it will not have negative long term side effects.

I am not even going to discuss the legal implications of the different legal orders being passed now because that's a slippery slope into a political debate and generally I feel that anyone that gets into politics usually ends up as slime of the earth even if they didn't start out as such.

So now we are at a point where the vaccine may help one survive the effects of the virus. That's it. This is where we are medically speaking, vaccinated people are still dying though at a lower rate.

So why should one be forced by any government body to vaccinate if the only person it really affects is the person being vaccinated?

In the words of Ice Cube "If you're scared, go to church."

The unvaccinated are contributing to the continuation and severity of the COVID health crisis. The unvaccinated put even those vaccinated at risk. The unvaccinated contribute to the difficulties and expense of running a business. The unvaccinated have contribute to the limitations of goods, services and entertainment. The comeback is always we are all free to choose what we do so the unvaccinated aren't limiting anything. My response is how our forefathers defined freedom in a Democracy. Freedom ends when it infringes on the freedom of others.

No, it didn't start with Trump. I will say that he spent his entire presidency, and still is, focused on expanding the division
and tribal behavior in the country and has been alarmingly successful. That is not politically based. It is my opinion based on how much general and political behavior has changed in the last 5-6 years verses the last 50. Certainly he has some good company from both parties but he has a big stage and huge following to influence. Non-compliance with the obvious is more often than not the reason for annoying rules and regulations that feel like bureaucracy. The COVID health crisis is one such example.

I am looking at boats. I used to have one and one of my best memories was putting the pedal to the metal and heading out into Lake Michigan until I couldn't see shore, turning off the motor and just sitting there rocking in the waves.

I think the number of vaccinated people that are scared is extremely small. I would say they are well informed and justifiably, reasonably cautious. If God is brought into this what about do onto others as you would have them do unto you.

I understand that position. But how are they doing all of those things you listed, on their own? For example, the limitation of goods is a problem through many factors, chiefly supply and demand. Demand from all people, vaccinated and unvaccinated alike. Supply has not recovered from the shut downs before a vaccine was available.

That may be, but as above, what are they limiting and how are they solely responsible for it? Personally, we have no more limitations with the vaccines available now to all in our family.

Pelosi, Schumer, McConnel, Paul, they are all thankful for Trump. They are more celebrity now (and can make more money) than they ever were before. And they all love it. The media too. CNN's viewership (maybe Fox's too?) has never been higher thanks to the Trump train. To the bolded, that may be true, but it's a non-issue unless you are taking as radical an approach to compliance as they are to non-compliance. Let people die, or get injured, or sick, or whatever that personal choice might result in.

I stopped going out on the lake when life jackets became a requisite and fees/fines were being handed out like hot cakes. Someday I hope to have a property with a lake on it... though by the time we'd get it I'd probably be too old to use a jet ski. :rolleyes:

Yep. So nice to just be in the middle of a lake or out on the ocean rocking with the surface rhythm. Plus the sound of the water lapping on the hull is like a lullaby.

Certainly there are lots of other contributors around the world. The slowdown of the supply channels is both directly and indirectly linked to COVID. Not enough people to fill the jobs or expand working hours throughout the channels of distribution, among other problems. Demand goes up, supplies go down then prices go up. Take Covid out of the equation and the distribution channels and supply and demand will begin to normalize. If we can't then nationwide problems like the supply channels out of whack will persist. It can't be easier to get vaccinated and contribute to resolving this health crisis. I say if one is vaccinated they are part of the solution. If not, they are part of the problem.

IMO I am limited as to what I can safely do as long as COVID is not under control. The unvaccinated contribute to our inability to control COVID. Call it unnecessary complications, chronic irritations, and financial implications if you want. I think all of us have experienced those in our day to day routines. The worst part is it appears they are going to go on and on and on. We won't see much progress until at best the fall of 2022. As winter sets in and the holidays approach, COVID is gearing up for the opportunity to go on an infection frenzy. https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tra...ases_community

Wait. This is a ‘stupid or evil’ situation.

All vaccines have failure rates. Only the anti-Vaxxers seem to have decided that ‘real vaccines’ are “100%”…so this COVID thing must not be a real vaccine.

Also, the rates at which people will GET COVID and TRANSMIT COVID are far different if you are vaccinated. So not sure why you reduce this to a binary? Just too much for you to comprehend, or something else?

So this retarded absolutism, almost always the hallmark of uncritical thinking, is just a game the antivaxers play.

If you dont want the risk of being vaccinated, then YOU can stay home. Or not fly, not work, not shop, not eat out, not go to school.

We wont miss you.

The same medications that don't have decades long approvals are the ones involved in massive lawsuits. Sure its a small portion but in general the way that the FDA and Big Pharma have shown in the past and in the case of Pfizer now that profits trump all else including the health and well being of the consumer. I am not skeptical of the scientists in the labs working on this stuff, I'm skeptical of the accountants and upper management pushing these things out the door while ignoring those same super smart scientists who are in the background saying "We don't know how safe it is yet". This is obviously an overgeneralization but its to get my viewpoint across.

Again, my biggest issue with the mandate is that one person's vaccination does not have a profound affect on those in direct contact with that person so why the mandate? Me being vaccinated does not stop you from getting the virus in most cases. Social responsibility coupled with proper PTO/Sick time structure would help more by allowing sick people to stay home.

I agree with the speeding scenario 100% it's why we have speed limits and why I take my speeding tickets without a shred of negativity toward the officer enforcing the traffic laws. However the situation with the vaccine is not exactly like you describe because regardless of the mandate (traffic laws) and adherence thereto (driving the speed limit) the same number of traffic incidents (transmission cases) WILL happen, and you will be driving the same vehicle, the only thing that will change is how protected I am. So OOPS you rear-ended my X5 in your X5 or OOPs you rear-ended my HUMVEE in your X5. All other factors stay the same. As for me rear-ending someone or not (being vaccinated), well that's me taking responsibility, this is what CW is talking about. Ultimately those of us that are NOT against the vaccine but ARE against the mandates want everyone to be more socially responsible which includes changing how society approaches things like sick time and child care and so many other things that make it impossible for a single mother to stay home with her sick kid because she just cant afford it. The system is broken, and vaccine mandates are a band-aid to a gun wound.

I guess you misunderstood me on this. If you are afraid of the infection having extreme effects then go get vaccinated, I fully support all those who are vaccinated because they are taking the steps they feel are necessary to protect themselves. But don't force me to sit in a pew and listen to scripture.

Definitely keeping faith out of this discussion (I guess you're not familiar with the musical stylings of Ice Cube).


1. Personal attacks really help drive the point home in a discussion, really proves the breadth of one's ability to get his/her point across in a civilized manner, I bet you're just as bold in person.

2. I never mentioned failure rates. I stated that the vaccine does not affect transmission rates, guess I should've specified further. The CDC along with their counterparts from around the world have all stated that the current vaccines have a profound affect on the alpha variant while the transmission of all other variants is not greatly affected.

3. When I had the infection (in April of 2020) I stayed home, didn't fly, didn't eat out, didn't go to school, etc. Not because I had to be told so but because I take responsibility for my affect on the wellbeing of the people around me.

4. This is the farthest thing from abolitionism, it is in fact the measured positive effect vs the potential negative. Now on the off chance in 20 years my liver starts to malfunction as a direct result of the vaccination that I was basically forced to get because my freedoms to do basically anything were being forcibly removed even though I already had the natural immunity that comes with beating a viral infection, even though the effects of the virus on my entire family were minimal, even though I am responsible enough to know when to stay my sick #$% home. Do I come harvest your organs because you're in the camp that forced me to get an immunization that ultimately led to a much MORE severe health implication for me or do I go after your kids organs since yours will probably be in just as bad of shape as mine?


I really don't have a problem with mass vaccination, my problem is with how it is being rolled out and as I think most of us agree with how this whole situation is being used as political tool for the people (politicians) we would all like to see removed from existence (not killed, just maybe sent to a different dimension or something)

[QUOTE=Nolimite39;1212962]The same medications that don't have decades long approvals are the ones involved in massive lawsuits. Sure its a small portion but in general the way that the FDA and Big Pharma have shown in the past and in the case of Pfizer now that profits trump all else including the health and well being of the consumer. I am not skeptical of the scientists in the labs working on this stuff, I'm skeptical of the accountants and upper management pushing these things out the door while ignoring those same super smart scientists who are in the background saying "We don't know how safe it is yet". This is obviously an overgeneralization but its to get my viewpoint across.
What vaccines are facing massive lawsuits?
What scientists are saying the vaccine is not safe yet?

Again, my biggest issue with the mandate is that one person's vaccination does not have a profound affect on those in direct contact with that person so why the mandate? Me being vaccinated does not stop you from getting the virus in most cases. Social responsibility coupled with proper PTO/Sick time structure would help more by allowing sick people to stay home.
The problem is not one person. If there was only one unvaccinated person there would not be a problem. Each unvaccinated individual is part of huge number that are the problem. The problem is that 1+1+1+1+1 and millions more are unvaccinated. The result is that COVID continues to be a national health crisis.

I agree with the speeding scenario 100% it's why we have speed limits and why I take my speeding tickets without a shred of negativity toward the officer enforcing the traffic laws. However the situation with the vaccine is not exactly like you describe because regardless of the mandate (traffic laws) and adherence thereto (driving the speed limit) the same number of traffic incidents (transmission cases) WILL happen, and you will be driving the same vehicle, the only thing that will change is how protected I am. So OOPS you rear-ended my X5 in your X5 or OOPs you rear-ended my HUMVEE in your X5. All other factors stay the same. As for me rear-ending someone or not (being vaccinated), well that's me taking responsibility, this is what CW is talking about. Ultimately those of us that are NOT against the vaccine but ARE against the mandates want everyone to be more socially responsible which includes changing how society approaches things like sick time and child care and so many other things that make it impossible for a single mother to stay home with her sick kid because she just cant afford it. The system is broken, and vaccine mandates are a band-aid to a gun wound.
You actually believe if everyone drove the speed limit the number of accidents would not decrease? That says that speeding has not been the cause of any accidents. We know that completely defies decades of statistics and is not true of COVID transmission statistics either. You support mass vaccination but don't get vaccinated because fed mandates may be coming. When in fact the more and longer people refuse to be vaccinated the more likely there will be fed, state and local mandates. The unvaccinated can control whether there will be mandates and how restricting they could be. I would like to hear how you think COVID is going to get under control if not by vaccination. I think the unvaccinated are clearly not being socially responsible as their behavior is negatively effecting others. Socially responsible is getting vaccinated.

I guess you misunderstood me on this. If you are afraid of the infection having extreme effects then go get vaccinated, I fully support all those who are vaccinated because they are taking the steps they feel are necessary to protect themselves. But don't force me to sit in a pew and listen to scripture. The vaccinated didn't do so out of fear. It was because they are protecting themselves, their family and the general public from a virus that can be deadly. And, because it is the right thing to do for all other citizens. Kinda like a patriotic duty.

Definitely keeping faith out of this discussion (I guess you're not familiar with the musical stylings of Ice Cube).
I avoid rap music as much as I can and don't have Ice Cube on my list as a learned source. To each their own.

1. Personal attacks really help drive the point home in a discussion, really proves the breadth of one's ability to get his/her point across in a civilized manner, I bet you're just as bold in person. False. Personal attacks are more often than not an indication one doesn't have anything to respond with that is constructive or it has become clear that that person is wrong so they lash out. Personal attacks end the chance of learning or finding common ground. Discussions and debates are not personal. When personal attacks enter the equation it is then an argument and no progress is made.

2. I never mentioned failure rates. I stated that the vaccine does not affect transmission rates, guess I should've specified further. The CDC along with their counterparts from around the world have all stated that the current vaccines have a profound affect on the alpha variant while the transmission of all other variants is not greatly affected.
Sorry if I misunderstood. The vaccine does reduce transmission rates. If one doesn't have COVID they can't infect others.
3. When I had the infection (in April of 2020) I stayed home, didn't fly, didn't eat out, didn't go to school, etc. Not because I had to be told so but because I take responsibility for my affect on the wellbeing of the people around me.
[COLOR="Blue"The CDC has stated the vaccine is safe. They also state you should get vaccinated even if you have had COVID. That would be for the wellbeing of others. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...ctiveness.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...-vaccines.html[/COLOR]

4. This is the farthest thing from abolitionism, it is in fact the measured positive effect vs the potential negative. Now on the off chance in 20 years my liver starts to malfunction as a direct result of the vaccination that I was basically forced to get because my freedoms to do basically anything were being forcibly removed even though I already had the natural immunity that comes with beating a viral infection, even though the effects of the virus on my entire family were minimal, even though I am responsible enough to know when to stay my sick #$% home. Do I come harvest your organs because you're in the camp that forced me to get an immunization that ultimately led to a much MORE severe health implication for me or do I go after your kids organs since yours will probably be in just as bad of shape as mine?
Natural immunity varies by individual and the severity of the infection. They are questions about how long any level of natural immunity lasts. The CDC recommends vaccination anyway. I have seen no expert input that the vaccine is not safe. That is intended to instill fear of the vaccine. It's just plain false. I view concern about 20 years from now as an unfounded excuse that can't be challenged because it will be years from now that we will know if there are longterm effects from the virus. The risk of X years from now is an unknown and pales in comparison to the risk of contracting COVID now.

I really don't have a problem with mass vaccination, my problem is with how it is being rolled out and as I think most of us agree with how this whole situation is being used as political tool for the people (politicians) we would all like to see removed from existence (not killed, just maybe sent to a different dimension or something)
This is, or a version of what many of the unvaccinated embrace--- While I don't have a problem with mass vaccination and I care about the wellbeing of others, I am not going to get vaccinated because I don't like the way it has been presented to me. The reality is no one is forcing the unvaccinated to be vaccinated. It has always been a recommendation and still is. It has also been that vaccination is the only way COVID will get under control. Everyone has had lots of time to get vaccinated and many haven't nor have they followed the guidelines. So what did they expect would happen?--- No big deal, do as you wish even though vaccination and mandates are the only proven broad based tools we currently have to curb COVID?

Mandates or no mandates we are not eradicating CV19. Contraction and carrier status is still possible with vaccination. The rest of the world is not going to be vaccinated, and we aren't closing the borders any time soon to business and tourism. Admittedly, severity of infection drops and not all exposed will be carriers in the US. The only thing that changes with a mandate is you piss off a portion of the population. A not insignificant portion.

Unfortunately, the cat is out of the bag at this point. Instead of focusing on the unvaccinated to direct derision and vitriol, aim it at those truly responsible for the pandemic in the first place. More and more info comes out that CV19 escaped from the Wuhan Novel Coronavirus Laboratory and that it occurred much earlier than we were led to believe according to the Washington Post. The outbreak was then covered up by China, the WHO, Fauci (under his direction the US sponsored work at the lab), the CDC, and of course the media. Now, we will never have conclusive evidence for any theory thanks to China's excellent ability to make people and documents disappear. But I'm fairly certain it was an accidental release from the lab.

The last 4 items (number 1-4) were aimed at ard's very aggressive response not you BCred. The comment about personal attacks is sarcasm, again aimed at ard.

"The risk for SARS-CoV-2 infection in fully vaccinated people cannot be completely eliminated as long as there is continued community transmission of the virus. Early data suggest infections in fully vaccinated persons are more commonly observed with the Delta variant than with other SARS-CoV-2 variants. However, data show fully vaccinated persons are less likely than unvaccinated persons to acquire SARS-CoV-2, and infections with the Delta variant in fully vaccinated persons are associated with less severe clinical outcomes. Infections with the Delta variant in vaccinated persons potentially have reduced transmissibility than infections in unvaccinated persons, although additional studies are needed."

The above is directly quoted from https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...ed-people.html

There are literally thousands of medicines recalled every year that carry FDA approvals because new studies are finding that they are directly linked to cancer. And all of these were deemed safe by the scientists when they hit the market, even with extensive laboratory research so excuse me for not trusting the FDA and the government that backs it.

The vaccine doesn't stop one from getting COVID or transmitting it to others so its moot to say "The vaccine does reduce transmission rates. If one doesn't have COVID they can't infect others."

Let me pose this question: If you are vaccinated and I am as well, I contract the virus and pass it to you, what is the outcome for you?

Similarly: If you are vaccinated and I am NOT, I contract the virus and pass it to you, with is the outcome for you?

[QUOTE=[COLOR="Blue"]Nolimite39[/COLOR];1213006]The last 4 items (number 1-4) were aimed at ard's very aggressive response not you BCred. The comment about personal attacks is sarcasm, again aimed at ard.

"The risk for SARS-CoV-2 infection in fully vaccinated people cannot be completely eliminated as long as there is continued community transmission of the virus. Early data suggest infections in fully vaccinated persons are more commonly observed with the Delta variant than with other SARS-CoV-2 variants. However, data show fully vaccinated persons are less likely than unvaccinated persons to acquire SARS-CoV-2, and infections with the Delta variant in fully vaccinated persons are associated with less severe clinical outcomes. Infections with the Delta variant in vaccinated persons potentially have reduced transmissibility than infections in unvaccinated persons, although additional studies are needed."

The above is directly quoted from https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...ed-people.html
I am aware of that position and agree.


There are literally thousands of medicines recalled every year that carry FDA approvals because new studies are finding that they are directly linked to cancer. And all of these were deemed safe by the scientists when they hit the market, even with extensive laboratory research so excuse me for not trusting the FDA and the government that backs it.
https://www.fda.gov/safety/recalls-market-withdrawals-safety-alerts
The vaccine doesn't stop one from getting COVID or transmitting it to others so its moot to say "The vaccine does reduce transmission rates. If one doesn't have COVID they can't infect others." It would be a moot point only if breakthrough cases were 100% of those vaccinated. Vaccines are not 100% effective and there are breakthrough infections though currently a very small percentage. Breakthrough case statistics are quite new so percentages vary. I have read studies that are as low as .1% to 2.5 %. The range indicates we don't have enough info to be accurate yet. Regardless, the percentage of breakthrough cases is extremely small. The breakthrough percentage will increase as more are vaccinated or if the vaccine becomes less effective from mutations. The possibility of more infectious and deadly variants increases the longer COVID is out of control.

Let me pose this question: If you are vaccinated and I am as well, I contract the virus and pass it to you, what is the outcome for you?
The chance you will infect me is very small but if I became a breakthrough case, because of being vaccinated the infection would be milder, very unlikely to require hospitalization, time in the ICU even more unlikely and death yet a smaller chance. If I am vaccinated and spend a day in a room with 50 infected people it is still unlikely I will be infected. In reality it would be impossible as I would not enter the room as I follow the guidelines. If you were not vaccinated would you spend the day in the room with 50 of your best friends?

Similarly: If you are vaccinated and I am NOT, I contract the virus and pass it to you, with is the outcome for you?
Results are the same as if you were vaccinated. It is highly unlikely I will be infected. However, not the same for you. The risk of being infected was higher so you might not have been infected at all if you had been vaccinated and the risk of being hospitalized or worse is much higher. Breakthrough case statistics are quite new so percentages vary. I have read studies that are as low as .1% to 2.5 %. The range indicates we don't have enough info to be accurate yet. Regardless, the percentage of breakthrough cases is extremely small.

Considering a large portion (~35%) of Ontario’s hospitalization are fully vaccinated it’s clear breakthrough cases are not uncommon and will only be more frequent as the vaccine effectiveness degrades. We clearly saw this happen in Israel, where you now must have a booster shot to be categorized as “fully vaccinated”.

A couple other metrics here in Ontario:
89% have at least one vaccine
85% are fully vaccinated

Currently in the hospital (not including ICU):
92 unvaccinated
16 partially vaccinated
68 fully vaccinated

Currently in the ICU:
62 unvaccinated
4 partially vaccinated
19 fully vaccinated

Source: https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data


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That is an opinion. As is most of the discussion surrounding CV19 (including mine). I've come to the conclusion that trying to vaccinate it away is not the silver bullet some believe it to be. You've come to a different one, which is fine.

Oh, I wasn't taking it personal. I was speaking in the general sense of those proponents of mandates (not yourself I would hope) berating the unvaccinated as if they are incapable of looking at data and drawing a conclusion. There are doctors, lawyers, scientists, etc who are unvaccinated. Are they not intelligent enough to make a decision? I'm sure most understand the potential risks of remaining unvaccinated. If people believed covid killed even 10% of healthy people, this wouldn't be a discussion. For most, covid hits like the flu or is asymptomatic. Outlying cases may have lasting effects (we don't really know the extent of this yet) or need to seek medical treatment.

I've come to believe Covid is here to stay. My family is vaccinated and my kids will be soon. We'll likely all need boosters once or twice a year. We don't know long term effects of the vaccine, not that I believe there will be any. But it is still an unknown and I don't blame anyone not wanting to put it in their body if they aren't ready to. Or whatever there reason is, doesn't have to be fear of the unknown.

I would still like to know how the unvaccinated are infringing on the freedoms of others. Did not get a response to that minus the supply chain issue that I don't believe can be placed at their feet. If there is a compelling case, I'd like that info to continue forming my opinions.

Another year or so and all this talk will normalize and be a "covid/flu season is here, get your shots" ten second blurb on the local news.

You are 100% correct. It does something that might be far more important, again IMO. It might shed light on who we should and should not be listening to or trust going forward. Remember when I said (in another thread that seems like ages ago now) Fauci, the WHO, and the CDC were lying when they said masks weren't effective? That turned out to be correct.

BTW, I also suffer permanent hand damage now due to the FDA's relaxing laws on the ethanol quality that could be used in hand sanitizers by manufacturers. Turns out benzene and methanol are really bad to be rubbing on your skin, even in relatively small quantities. They have since rolled that back (after a lab turned up those chemicals in products) and recommended issuing batch recalls on certain manufacturers. Thanks FDA. Much appreciated.

From what I can find the FDA recommended not using certain hand sanitizers because they exceeded the FDA requirements not that the allowed levels were reduced. https://www.fda.gov/drugs/drug-safet...should-not-use

Very sorry about your wrist. Is it your dominate hand?

https://health-infobase.canada.ca/co...-19-cases.html. Complete data for Canada tells a little different story. Note the disclaimer for accuracy of the numbers in Ontario link posted. As percent of those vaccinated increases the number of breakthrough cases increases. 85% is a high vaccination level. I don't know of anything that states how high breakthrough case percentages will go but the 85% level of vaccinated is an influence.

It's mentioned on that link you posted after you drill down. But here is a more specific link. https://www.fda.gov/news-events/pres...and-sanitizers

It's both hands unfortunately as you would expect using hand sanitizer. Not disfiguring or anything. Just very sensitive/painful and some visible cracking bleeding on joints. I have to use petroleum jelly and hand creams now or my knuckles turn into a bloody mess. Hard to open soda bottles now unless I remember to brace for the pain before hand. Fun stuff.

Sure.

1. The vaccine is not 100% effective at preventing infection
2. It is not 100% at preventing the infected from being a carrier
3. The vaccines lose efficacy over time requiring everyone to "reup" on a 6-10 month schedule (they are still evaluating the recommended intervals)
4. Travel in and out of the US will always bring new chance for infection. Even if 100% of the US is vaccinated. 12-24 months (maybe longer) from now, when efficacy has waned infection will spread again by travel.

To the bolded, agreed. Those exist on both sides. Misinformation is the greatest threat to our democracy IMO. Merchants of Doubt should be required viewing to all high school students to instill a healthy amount of skepticism and distrust in them towards companies and politicians alike.

Your position is very clear. As is mine I would think. You are placing blame on these people for prolonging the pandemic. I am of the opinion that covid will always be here and frankly, people not getting vaccinated has very little affect on my family's safety or freedoms. We do everything we did before now except that we take precautions (like masks indoors) because the environment has changed. Before vaccinations were a thing, non-mask wearers were a threat. Now they aren't. Now, it's their choice if they want to take that risk as I no longer worry about a serious infection. We either trust that the vaccine works at the quoted 90%+ rate or we don't.

To the bolded. So you believe that if there was a 95-100% vaccination rate, covid 19 would be beaten? Within the 6 month efficacy period we could go back to shaking hands, not wearing masks, and gathering in large crowds?

Disagree. I think the economic factors at play are much more to blame. "Just in time" supply chain. The blocking of the Suez. The inefficiencies of our ports. The increase of imports. The reason for not enough workers has nothing to do with the unvaccinated. It's more about inflation, payscales, eviction moratoriums, and unemployment benefits. More people are starting their own E businesses now than ever because they realize working like a slave to barely make it sucks. https://www.piie.com/blogs/realtime-...uring-covid-19 Unemployment continues to drop because people are working or have exited the job market to work for themselves.

I think you misunderstood. I didn't mean the news would say "time for your shots, go get 'em" and everyone would. I meant those who always get their flu shots would also get their boosters. Flu vaccines usually have ~40% take rate (if memory serves) so I figure those same people (my family among them) would do so as well. But that it would be normal as it has always been during flu season.

Not sure what you're asking. I always said masks were effective. That was the point. It was the WHO, CDC, and Fauci who originally said the general public would see no benefit by wearing them. Until they changed their mind 2 or 3 months later and said it would.

Can't find it. Where in the link does it say FDA changed specifications because of problems with their original approval? I read it as a temporary measure only about alcohol when there was a shortage of sanitizers and stopped when there was adequate inventory.

1. The vaccine is not 100% effective at preventing infection
2. It is not 100% at preventing the infected from being a carrier
3. The vaccines lose efficacy over time requiring everyone to "reup" on a 6-10 month schedule (they are still evaluating the recommended intervals)
4. Travel in and out of the US will always bring new chance for infection. Even if 100% of the US is vaccinated. 12-24 months (maybe longer) from now, when efficacy has waned infection will spread again by travel.
I agree with 1-3 as factual but I see them as barriers to reaching herd immunity rather than rationale to not be vaccinated. 4 can be addressed by testing or a quarantine period for incoming international visitors. And if US has achieved herd immunity infections from out of the country will not result in even a spike in COVID cases anyway. Vaccination is a critical element of reaching herd immunity just as it has been for other potentially deadly viruses.

Your position is very clear. As is mine I would think. You are placing blame on these people for prolonging the pandemic. I am of the opinion that covid will always be here and frankly, people not getting vaccinated has very little affect on my family's safety or freedoms. We do everything we did before now except that we take precautions (like masks indoors) because the environment has changed. Before vaccinations were a thing, non-mask wearers were a threat. Now they aren't. Now, it's their choice if they want to take that risk as I no longer worry about a serious infection. We either trust that the vaccine works at the quoted 90%+ rate or we don't. The key word in my post was -part of the problem. I don't think of it has blame. The problem is getting COVID under control. Vaccination is the cornerstone. I'm not blaming anyone for their position. I'm saying they are part of the problem. If not part of the problem how are they part of the solution?

To the bolded. So you believe that if there was a 95-100% vaccination rate, covid 19 would be beaten? Within the 6 month efficacy period we could go back to shaking hands, not wearing masks, and gathering in large crowds? Since we have not reached herd immunity no one knows for sure what percent vaccination for COVID results in herd immunity. The original percentage was based previous viruses which was 75-85 percent. Regardless, herd immunity is the goal.


Disagree. I think the economic factors at play are much more to blame. "Just in time" supply chain. The blocking of the Suez. The inefficiencies of our ports. The increase of imports. The reason for not enough workers has nothing to do with the unvaccinated. It's more about inflation, payscales, eviction moratoriums, and unemployment benefits. More people are starting their own E businesses now than ever because they realize working like a slave to barely make it sucks.
https://www.piie.com/blogs/realtime-...uring-covid-19 Unemployment continues to drop because people are working or have exited the job market to work for themselves.
Just in time has been a SOP for decades. The problem with the supply was already there when the Suez was blocked as were port inefficiencies. The pandemic exasperated the problems. Imports increased as quarantining and infections increased. Folks had the time, the money and many weren't spending money on things like vacations so they bought more products. Some of the new E businesses are the result of the feelings you mention. Far more are the result of lost jobs or reduced income from the impact of the pandemic. They saw the opportunity to not return to their jobs but rather open their own businesses. The cost of opening an E business is low and there is usually no brick and mortar or cost of employees.
Sorry I misunderstood your position on masks. The NIH position on masks changed after two months. COVID was new. it took that long to determine how contagious it is. That is the reason for the change in position. It was not due to error.

Policy has not stopped as of yet. I'm not sure what language you are looking for? They aren't going to say specifically, "We are ending this policy because we allowed non-drug mfgs to produce alcohol based sanitizers and took their word that they would follow our quality and testing guidelines." Come on now. Links to the actual policy below. The FDA says:

"Effective Dec. 31, 2021, companies manufacturing alcohol-based hand sanitizers under the temporary policies must cease production of these products. After that date, manufacturers wishing to continue producing hand sanitizer can do so provided they comply with the tentative final monograph for over-the-counter topical antiseptics and other applicable requirements, including the FDA’s Current Good Manufacturing Practice requirements."

If you read the new update companies are able to continue selling until March 2022, though have to stop production Dec 31, 2021.

These are non-drug producing companies that were given temporary license to produce cheap hand sanitizers at elevated pricing. What could go wrong? :rolleyes: Here is the study that prompted them to end the policy. The sanitizer I used was found to have the worst benzene contamination of all those tested.

https://www.valisure.com/wp-content/...izer-v4.14.pdf

On your original link they became aware of problems with methanol contamination somewhere around July 2020 but did not take action except to issue a press release because sanitizer was still in short supply.

A recommendation against specific sanitizers (and voluntary recall urging to mfg) containing benzene did not come until 10/4/2021. Only 8 days before the withdrawal of the temporary policies. Coincidence?

Here is a link to the temporary policies: https://www.fda.gov/media/136289/download

There are a few lawsuits filed already. Hell, I should probably call an attorney myself.

You don't have to believe the FDA fucked up and that all the alphabet agencies are fallible. But they did and they are. This discussion on mandates has gone circular and this one on the FDA is in danger of doing so as well so I am withdrawing. Don't want another reinforcement plate bolt discussion.

Stay safe all.

I tend to be, yes.



Again, this is either a lie or ignorant. The vaccine IS protective against delta. Not 95%, but better than nothing. Against delta pfizr is estimated at ~50. (note this drops after the second dose, moreso than the Alpha variant)


It is UTTERLY false that the vaccine has no impact on 'transmission'. It does. Period. We can argue math if you wish, but your assertion seems to imply 'why bother?'. It works.


It also prevents people from dying, RIght?



It is clear you have a narrative you picked up from Tucker that (1) you have 'natural' immunity, and (2) the vaccine is pointless against delta and (3) the vaccine will likely harm you long term becuase, well, its new. (Never mind there isnt a clear mechanism for these supposed long term effects. and never mind that covid DOES have some long term impacts. But this is your narrative that you twist the data to fit.



Wonderful.


Others seem to be happy to spread the disease, either doing their part to drive herd immunity or just a feeling that they enjoy being anti-social. These folks may need something other than their sense of societal well being to dictate their behaviors.





Why do you think your 'natural' protection from an earlier covid exposure is protective to the delta? Data shows that protection from prior infection AND prior immunization BOTH drop off. Do you plan on getting infected again with covid to get 'boosted'? So much more 'natural' than a risky injection eh? (and has the upside of being able to pass along your infection if you dont realize you are infectious quickly enough. I know, if other people are worried about getting infected from you thats their problem, right?)


Drs. Carlson and Paul (and the healthcare team at Fox) convince you of this?


Given 750,000 dead Americans, I am OK with the infinitesimal risk of some odd liver issue cropping up in 30 years. (I know, I know- thats an overcount and it was politically manipulated ...they were all likely weak, old or suffering from some other issue and didnt die of covid)




You are the modern posterchild for FOx. Covid was used as a political tool by the right- 'resist resist resist, lets cause this to drag out and that will hurt the democrats in 2020'...and now it is being twisted into some weird "Dems are using vaccine mandates to control society".





Instead the pivot is "Im pro-vaccine but anti mandate" and that will become the battle royale until 2024.



Get the vaccine (even if you had covid)..get the booster, wear a Fing mask, sit down, put on your seatbelt- STFU. Lets get back to normal life in a year.

"Why do you think your 'natural' protection from an earlier covid exposure is protective to the delta? Data shows that protection from prior infection AND prior immunization BOTH drop off."

Well considering that the vaccine ONLY teaches your immune system to react to the spike protein portion of covid19 and that people who've recovered from covid19 have immune responses to ALL parts of the coronavirus their immunity is greater due to the delta variant being mostly a change in the spike proteins allowing it to bypass vaccine easier than people who have an immune response to the entire virus.....

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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...5f7033a34c.jpg

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Viruses mutate to flourish. While there is a lot to learn about this latest mutation, it may well be another attempt by the virus to be more contagious, reduce the benefits of the vaccines, be more deadly or have more residual effects. The greater the number of cases the more likely we will return to past measures intended to control the virus. There is no proof the COVID virus originated in the Wuhan Lab. It's nothing more than hearsay and misdirection. There is nothing funny or factual in your post.

Yes they do mutate to "flourish" and if you go back to your Jr High school biology class you would know that viruses mutate and become more transmissible and less dangerous to the host or else they die out quickly.

As for "proof" of origin, there is no proof it came from a wet market or natural cross species transfer, unless you have something specific showing it most likely wasn't tinkered with in a lab then I am more likely to be correct solely based on a brand new virus breaking out in the neighborhood of the local biological research laboratory that just happened to be studying a super close relative of this virus that wasn't endemic to that area and that was paid to do gain of function on that super close relative of coronavirus and was known to have slipshod safety practices.


The post IS humorous to people who don't have a stick up their ass and I have neither the time nor the crayons to explain satire to you.

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Can confirm humor content. :thumbup:

Anyone who completely disregards the Wuhan Coronavirus Lab theory is ignoring evidence. We'll never know exactly where it came from, but there is more evidence supporting the Lab accident theory than there is the zoonic wet market theory. And Fauci should be fired, gain of function or not.

On a side note. Drawing closer to when our munchkins will be getting their jabs. Have been keeping an ear out to any negative effects of the vaccine on children and have not heard anything as of yet, excepting typical shot side effects. Still have another month before their appts so hopefully it stays quiet.

I do wish vaccine trials on kids were more substantial, but it is what it is I suppose given the recent nature of CV19. Every parent(s) is making these decisions with limited information, best wishes to all, no matter which course of action they take. I do know we can't wait to get our kids back into a school and have at least a modicum of peace of mind.

Cited: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-...s/art-20513332

Wow!

Crystal my dude, just have faith. It doesn’t matter whether you believe solely in science, or the healing of The Christ Jesus. Faith is for everyone.

In simplistic terms...

A virus will mutate in whatever fashion it can to become a satiated organism i.e. it's able to reproduce easily and maintain its lifecycle for the environment it resides in.

Becoming "more" deadly or damaging to the host is the opposite of that.

I'm probably your age or older and yes I remember Dragnet and I also remember basic biology and many other things I learned throughout my life.

You have a sense of humor rarely found outside of a parochial school next to a ruler factory so maybe it would benefit you to lighten and remember that "Tact" is for people not smart enough to use sarcasm.

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Apparent declarative statement below [emoji116]You didn't qualify your initial position. You made a declarative statement the virus came from the lab. That's what I responded to. More likely has nothing to do with it. We aren't playing the odds. There is no proof of where COVID came from as you have said so anything neither of us say has no verifying facts.

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Just to be clear. I don't know where the virus came from and am not saying it could not have come from the lab.

Why should Fauci be fired?
Why does more 'evidence' mean it is more likely the virus came from the lab? Has any of the 'evidence' been proven accurate?

I have not heard of any problems with vaccinating children. I keep up on COVID Let's hope it stays that way. The following might help: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...ren-teens.html Click on the process link under is it safe.

Sorry for the questions, just would like to better understand where you are coming from.

Let's start with a virus becoming more transmissible....

If the virus kills 1% of its hosts and then becomes "more" transmissible it just means that more hosts get infected NOT that it is deadlier. It's not killing 2% or 20% more of infected hosts, it still has the same % of lethality.

As for satiated lifeforms that does NOT solely refer to life such as mammals, reptiles, invertebrates, etc.

"by becoming more deadly by having the ability to reduce the effectiveness of the virus thereby even infecting fully vaccinated individuals"~BC

Uhmm did you even read this? Becoming more deadly by a reduced effectiveness of a virus? WTF? So a less effective virus is more deadly? (Not even remotely true) viruses are genetically predisposed to spread and a deadlier virus kills more hosts limiting their ability to transmit to another host making that strain die out quicker, a virus that doesn't kill or incapacitate its host gets transmitted more often and becomes the dominant strain. Quick acting viruses like Ebola generally didn't spread far since the infected host became too ill to travel and died. That's why looking at the maps of Ebola outbreaks shows tight clusters and not large swaths. Plus to be fair I did say in simplistic terms and yet I still have to explain it to you.

Now about sarcasm and tact...

You have based your replies on a funny meme yet you have taken the meme as gospel and based your entire argument on refuting it.[emoji849]

As for the age issue I only replied to your insinuation that I was probably too young to know the tv show and possibly intimating a lack of experience.

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I agree with you EODguy; but you're wasting your energy. Rational reasoning and logic, the ideas of personal rights, freedoms and bodily autonomy - they're all completely wasted on people blinkered by this manufactured culture of fear.

There is absolutely NO proof that the virus was manufactured. To those that say there is more evidence it is--evidence is not necessarily proof. The proof comes from evaluation of the evidence and that has not been done. Personal rights do not allow one to infringe on the personal rights or freedom of another. It is about doing the right thing, each of us doing our part to get the pandemic under control. It doesn't matter right now where the virus came from. it is about what we should do to stop the spread of COVID. That hasn't changed. Wear a mask, avoid crowds, social distancing, get vaccinated including a booster.

There are already lockdowns in other countries and preventative actions have started in the US. It seems to me that those that won't get vaccinated are the same ones that are adamantly against any mandated restrictions to reduce the spread of COVID. I can't find the logic.

One is either a part of the problem or part of the solution. I have asked the following question before and it went unanswered: If you won't get vaccinated and/or follow the guidelines---How will the COVID pandemic be stopped? What is your solution?

Regardless of where the virus came from, the culture of fear has been manufactured. It's a tool used to gain power and control. This pandemic takes it to the next level but it's been going on for a long time.



Nobody has suggested taking away others rights and freedom other than those sitting in your corner. If you want to stay at home, avoid travelling, wear a mask - fine do it, it's your right to choose to do those things for yourself. But mandating these things for everyone by law, removing others ability to make their own personal risk assessment and choices, forcibly taking away their freedoms - that's wrong.


As for 'being part of the problem or part of the solution', is anything ever that black and white? And who says we have to 'stop the spread of covid', who says we can ever hope to 'control the virus'. We've been living with these viruses for thousands of years, they are quite literally a fact of life. They eventually become more transmissible and less lethal - a seriously deadly virus is not a particularly successful virus. By interfering with it's natural development we're probably just making this worse and dragging it out for longer.

There are already many viruses that we have been required (mandated) to be vaccinated against for decades. I hope you are not serious that we should just ignore the COVID crisis and what will be will be? Can you provide a credible source that agrees with you? Over 800,000 citizens have died and you think we should just let it rock along it's merry way? Virus don't always become less lethal and more contagious. That's incorrect. Experts around the world agree that vaccination and following the guidelines vital to controlling the virus. That is the science.

It is black and white in this case. If you aren't part of the solution you are clearly part of the problem. Same question---How are you part of the solution? What is your science based solution?

Personal rights have limitations as does freedom and bodily autonomy. It is clearly stated in the bill of rights.

A world wide pandemic, and you’re telling me, you are able to classify it soundly as black and white, with no variables.

BC, you are better than your above statement.

You're arguing with a bloody pomme about our Bill of Rights?

"manufacturer fear"?!?


800,000 Americans killed. And since we have 300million people, thats only 0.2% so clearly no big deal?



What would you say is the number of deaths where people should be concerned with living?


In other words, what is the appropriate cut off for when it isnt a 'manufactured fear' and is actually something we ought to act?

The Constitution and the Bill of Rights does NOT "grant" Rights it enumerates them.

But if you really believe what you wrote there then....

Should people (for example) be required to only buy hardback books at a mandated size, font and number of pages? Get permission to purchase a book, sell a book before doing so?

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Personal rights do not allow one to infringe on the personal rights or freedom of another. ~BC

AKA... Muh feelings

The only reason for mandates is because there are so many that resist doing the right thing on their own. ~BC

AKA.... I'm going to make decisions for everyone.

I don't like mandates either but I think those not getting vaccinated or not following the guidelines will ever do so on their own. ~BC

AKA.... My opinion

Apologies to Simon and Garfunkel but... Hello irony my old friend. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...5e28557ba5.jpg

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There are no variables for individuals unless the vaccine is not available or for some medical reason they should not be vaccinated. The only ask of individuals around the world is to get vaccinated including the booster and follow the guidelines. So yes is still the answer. If one is not vaccinated and refusing to follow the guidelines they are part of the problem.

Still don't have an answer to my very simple question. I think the reason I don't is that you know you are not doing anything. Avoiding answering the question speaks volumes.

Again, what is your contribution toward getting the pandemic under control? Got another question--How will Covid be controlled if not by vaccination?

[QUOTE=EODguy;1214535]Personal rights do not allow one to infringe on the personal rights or freedom of another. ~BC

AKA... Muh feelings
It is not an opinion. It is the definition of freedom as stated in the bill of rights. Freedom does not mean one can do anything one wants to do. There are distinct limitations.
The only reason for mandates is because there are so many that resist doing the right thing on their own. ~BC

AKA.... I'm going to make decisions for everyone.
As usual you can't make a post without being rude. I have not made one post that indicates I think I can make a decision for you or anyone else. I am responding to statements that have no scientific foundation. I see it as a debate that I have no investment in the outcome.


I don't like mandates either but I think those not getting vaccinated or not following the guidelines will ever do so on their own. ~BC

AKA.... My opinion Yes, of course, it is my opinion. No different than your comments in this post. However, as an example, when ones decision to not get vaccinated is politically based the writing is on the wall, to be sure it is clear---IMO.

Apologies to Simon and Garfunkel but... Hello irony my old friend. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...5e28557ba5.jpg

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I have always liked Simon and Garfunkel. What is the meaning behind the meme? Sure. My comments have no hidden meaning or agenda, Nor do they even imply the opposite of what I post. Often when someone resorts to insults it is an indication that they have exhausted any response that is a constructive or meaningful to the discussion/debate. When one has no valid facts to endorse their position it is easy to become angry or frustrated and lash out. What I do is take a break or prepare a post and read it 3 to 4 hours later to to see if I still want to send it. Same question--What is your contribution to help get the virus under control?

Personal rights do not allow one to infringe on the personal rights or freedom of another. ~BC


It is not an opinion. It is the definition of freedom as stated in the bill of rights. Freedom does not mean one can do anything one wants to do. There are distinct limitations.

And there's the irony... you want to force people to get vaccinated for "your" protection.

If people can be forced to do things to their bodies that others feel would be beneficial for society then where does it stop? Forced marriage? Forced purchases of insurance? Forced termination of any special needs child?

As people say the road to hell is paved with good intentions. That you can't see the violation of people's Rights is suprising.

As for your belief that insults are because someone doesn't have anything constructive to say is completely wrong as I have used hurting your feelings to get you to admit that forcing people to do something is against their Rights and if you can't understand that even with a Harvard education then I recommend you ask for a refund.

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You agree that forcing people to do things against their will is a violation of their Rights, but then you completely dismiss your statement with...
"You won't have to be angry about any COVID mandates if you get vaccinated before they're in place."

Amazing that you can be so disingenuous or blind.

As for the things about books, I chose a book as an example of something enumerated by the Bill of Rights and you felt it was one of my reasons and missed the point.
Every single thing I attributed to laws about a book in that statement is and would be against the Bill of Rights yet if you replace the word book with (firearm) then you would realize that they are already in place and ignorant, asinine laws are already trampling peoples Rights and all because of a little bit of "good" intention by dumbasses who have come to believe that 51% agreement means they can change or even curtail the Rights of the people.

We are not a democracy, we are a Republic.

I will say that if a mandate forces someone to (in this case) get an experimental vaccine and they suffer damage or death then I would not have any issues whatsoever if got retribution on those who cost them to lose a parent, husband, wife or child.

You may think some of those ideas of being forced to do other things is an impossibility but already many countries mandate the abortion of special needs children, marriage, etc.

As for stopping the horrible covid19 with a fatality rate of 1% or less... I am unconcerned about what you do or don't do. During the war on terror 10% of EOD troops were killed and almost the same percentage were wounded so I don't worry about some ultra low odds of death from this.

After reading your replies I take it back about you getting a refund from Harvard. I believe they should pay you, to never let anyone know you graduated.

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As I said, you're wasting your time EOD. People this indoctrinated can't be reasoned with, there's no middle ground, you agree with them or you're wrong and deserve to be cancelled.


https://media0.giphy.com/media/D0RvP...giphy.gif&ct=g

I know but for me support and defend the Constitution has always included trying to ge people to see what the Constitution says and means. I am sometimes successful.

In this case it sends me high and to the right when someone makes a statement of.... Your Rights end where mine begin, so you must do something against your will to make me feel safe.[emoji849]

Even Thomas Sowell says "usually" not always so there's a chance. Of course my old SGM used to say "Chance? There's a CHANCE I might shit a gold brick, but I don't think it's going to happen."https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...83a6c3f656.jpg

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I have had covid19 and it was after being in the ICU a week with pneumonia and it was the same as the flu, I stayed at home till I tested clear. Enough done.


What have you done to get chicken pox under control? It too has a less than 1% chance of causing death and is extremely transmissible......

I've also included a handy definition for you below. [emoji106]


As for what you think about me...

My give a shit meter doesn't even register a wiggle. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...4ae339ae14.jpg

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That's not an answer. All you are saying is that based on your experience with COVID it is no big deal. You can extend an anecdotal experience to the world if you want but that was not the experience of 800,000 Americans and counting. The question is a simple one to answer--what are you doing to help get COVID under control?

As far as chicken pox--you asked a question and I will give you a direct answer. I had it when I was young. Since then it has become a mandate prior to starting school there. if one has had Chicken Pox a vaccination is not necessary. In the case of COVID it is recommended by the CDC and WHO to be vaccinated including the booster stating natural immunity is not sufficient protection.

FYI, yesterday Trump asked his followers to get vaccinated including the booster shot. Biden will be speaking today about further efforts by the federal government to control the virus.

As I have said, this is not about you, me or anyone else. This is not a competition about who is right or wrong. It is about what information is accurate. We are discussing what should we do as individuals, as part of a country that has a health crisis and what is factual information. I have absolutely nothing against you. My comment that I hope you win the bet against COVID was very sincere.

You didn't answer my question about Harvard. why do you keep doing so? I am sure you can make your point without insults.

The Omicron mutation/variant is an example of some of our discussion. It is much more contagious and therefore affects more of those fully vaccinated and obviously a far greater increase of those not vaccinated.
Studies in New York and Seattle show the unvaccinated are many many more times likely to be affected.

While the early returns suggest Omicron is not as severe and will result in less deaths per infection, the much larger number of infections may result in a high number of deaths even if it is a lower percentage of total cases. Regardless, the current level of infection is increasing the number of businesses, schools etc. that feel it is necessary to close and/or require more stringent protective measures because of Omicron. We are headed away from things becoming normal.

This new mutation is infecting a greater number of children than Delta. Unfortunately, children infected seem to have more permanent issues than adults after recovery.

Because the vaccines are less effective preventing Omicron infection, fully vaccinated is now the two shots and the booster. At least one country is developing a fourth shot.

With the huge number of Omicron cases around the world we can expect other mutations will soon appear. And the Delta variant is still around to add to the complexity.

As a sidebar. The percent of Democrats that have been vaccinated is far greater than that of Republicans. How can one justify politics are more important than individual and public health? Or, that of ones children that have no say in the decision?

This didn't have to happen. All that was necessary was to get vaccinated as soon as it was available to each one of us and follow the guidelines.

bcredliner:

I agree with your assessment.

FYI, Today, Jan. 11th, 2022, Pfizer announced plans to manufacture 50 - 100 million doses of a new omicron-specific version of its COVID-19 vaccine. They acknowledged that their is a growing concern that their and other pharmaceutical companies’ current vaccine formulations most likely need to be tweaked for the new threat of the Omicron variants and those that will follow.

From what I have read, rapid development and manufacturing changes are possible by the mRNA vaccine technology deployed by Moderna, along with Pfizer, with German partner BioNTech. These companies have said it takes about 90 days from genetic sequencing of a new threat to producing a new lipid nanoparticle vaccine containing the updated mRNA payload, which to me, seems like an incredibly rapid time frame for vaccine development.

Therefore, Pfizer is testing hybrid combinations of vaccines to target multiple coronavirus forms, as well as evaluating the effectiveness of larger doses. Pfizer’s PR department say that they hope to have the number of doses noted above, of this new formulation of their COVID-19 vaccine, to be available by late March to early April, 2022.

I consider this to be very good news and will be one of the first in line to receive this latest version of fourth booster shot. We all now know that our immunity to the constantly evolving COVID-19 virus, whether developing antibodies from being vaccinated or being naturally infected, unfortunately wanes over time. So, while there is no guarantee that receiving this booster will prevent one from catching the virus, similar to having received three vaccination shots so far, I do think and hope that it will continue to make me less susceptible to either catching COVID-19. Or, if I do catch the virus, my symptoms will be relatively minor and short lasting.

I speculate and fully anticipate that COVID-19 will now most likely never go away, but will just continue to mutate producing new variants that may possibly be more transmissible and/or more deadly than earlier variants. It now appears that the major pharmaceutical companies will just continue to modify their vaccines in response to the evolving mutations of the virus for quite some time. I would not be surprised if those of us who want to, will be offered and will elect to receive booster shots for the virus every 6-9 months or annually, similar to the regular influenza vaccinations, for many years to come….

I think we all are constantly looking for intelligent, rational, fair, educated voices of people who we can trust and believe for getting accurate and reasonable information on the COVID-19 virus, to assist us in determining and deciding for ourselves what the truth really is.

So for those of you who may be interested, I found this audio podcast to be very interesting and helped me better understand where we are now with the COVID-19 virus pandemic.

Here is a link to a podcast of episode #270 of Sam Harris' "Making Sense" podcast, that is titled:

WHAT HAVE WE LEARNED FROM THE PANDEMIC? - A Conversation with Nicholas Christakis

FYI, Sam B. Harris is an American philosopher, neuroscientist, author, public intellectual and podcast host. His work, communicated via lectures and his podcast, touches on a wide range of topics, including rationality, religion, ethics, free will, neuroscience, meditation, psychedelics, philosophy of mind, politics, terrorism, and artificial intelligence.

Nicholas A. Christakis is a Greek-American sociologist and physician known for his research on social networks and on the socioeconomic, biosocial, and evolutionary determinants of behavior, health, and longevity. He is the Sterling Professor of Social and Natural Science at Yale University, where he directs the Human Nature Lab.

https://www.samharris.org/podcasts/m...m-the-pandemic

I agree with your points. Covid is not going to go away based on the amount of worldwide resistant to be vaccinated, to follow the guidelines and the misinformation feeding a position of not being vaccinated. We'll just go from one variant to another. Best case scenario is the mutations become less and less severe. Otherwise, Covid mutations will be a form of human natural selection with the core drivers in the US being political affiliation, personal loyalty to the Trump political party and several associated media outlets.

I agree we will need periodic booster shots. I suspect that like flu shots some boosters will be broadly more effective than others.

Sorry, can't agree all of us are always looking for intelligent etc. sources to be better informed. I don't think that is an inherent human trait. I think that is instilled by our experiences in life. It seems we have a natural resistance to change that gets out of our way when we begin looking for the best solutions and truths.

It is time consuming to determine what is the truth. It is easy to draw conclusions from those we admire or idolize rather than make the effort to find out if the sources are reputable.

Well, I see your point and it may not be an inherent human trait, but one that is taught to those interested and willing to learn. Most of us find comfort in routines and a set group of family, friends and co-workers and tend to form our opinions based on a collective discussion between those groups. But yes, it does take a willingness and effort and ultimately is time consuming to drill down to the truth. So I guess I am speaking for myself and others who like me, strive to try to form our opinions based on facts, honest truth, science and rational objective thinking. I understand and recognize that today in our country and internationally, not everyone is willing to do that. For many reasons, they are unable or unwilling to question the message or the source of information. They may be one or more of the following: uninterested, uneducated, naïve, gullible, intellectually lazy or just want to go along with whatever their friends, family, tribe believe. There is no other honest way to describe those who still refuse to get vaccinated against the COVID-19 virus.

On a related sidebar, is a post I made in the Political Forum Thread awhile back, about "Black and White Beliefs vs Shades of Gray", which you may find interesting and applicable to understanding general politically motivated divisions in groups in our divided country. Here is a link to that post:

https://xoutpost.com/off-topic/polit...ades-gray.html

Famous cop quit the Washington State police over his refusal to get vaccinated…. Signed off telling governor Insley to ‘kiss my ass’.

Invited on fox, Laura Ingraham lauded him as a celebrity…. He claimed he was fielding all kinds of offers. In November

In January…. he’s dead. Of Covid.

Laura Ingraham ran a piece tonight, acknowledging this tragedy. NOT. (Of course not…Fox will not acknowledge this ever.)

While it is fun to make jokes about the Herman Cain award, and whatnot- at a very basic human level this guy leaves behind a wife and 4 kids all because his information sources were feeding him lies. Same is true for people we see getting kicked off transplant lists for not vaccinating themselves- declaring the rather be dead than give up their freedom. Its a death cult, with fox driving the frenzy.

It is disgusting that Fox and others are exploiting people in a quest to polarize our society…just to create anger and strife. They are craven and cynical, it isnt about ‘freedom’ or ‘choice’…its about how to tear apart Americans. The Murdocks are doing this in every market their cancer has taken hold.


(Deleted political slant…)

I'm sure we can't find any instances of people who got vaccinated and died from Covid. :confused:

The media is terrible about this on both sides. Each taking a "holier than thou" stance.

I agree with you on your "basic human level" take. But will always believe in personal choice. People can make up their own minds. Just like putting on a seatbelt. I am glad my family was vaccinated (kids partially at least) when we got Covid as I'm hoping it contributed to the mild symptoms we experienced. Which is one of the reasons I share it here, as a data point for those who may still be deciding.

I am the last in the family to get over it and experienced mild cold symptoms for about 2 weeks. Loss of smell for 4-5 days at the tail end of recovery. Still have very slight cough and congestion. Kids had it worst, with high fevers and other flu symptoms, but recovered faster. The boy was over it in 4 days.

ard:

Interesting observation and understandable feelings, which I share.
FYI, I do not know if you saw and read this, but here is a link to an Op-Ed piece from The New York Times that appeared on Jan. 30, 2022. It is titled:

How Do You Respond When an Anti-Vaxxer Dies of Covid?

by By James Martin
(Father Martin is a Jesuit priest and the author of “Learning to Pray: A Guide for Everyone.”)

Here is a link to that article:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/30/o...smid=url-share

Here is a tidbit quote from that article:

"It’s not surprising then that when a prominent person who has refused to perform this act of love — particularly when that person has railed publicly against these health-saving measures — dies from Covid, some people are eager to say, “I told you so.” A few go further, mocking those who have died or even trolling their survivors.

This welter of strong feelings can be disorienting: We see someone resisting vaccines or masking (which frustrates us); thus endangering others (which angers us); perhaps even endangering ourselves (which frightens us); and then dying — which should sadden us but, some of us are horrified to discover, doesn’t. Feeling vindicated by someone’s death seems immoral, but it also seems reflexive. Human."

AVB-AMG

874,000 US citizens have died from COVID. Just over 1800 are dying per day. All but a few percent are unvaccinated. At the current death rate, 600,000+ of the unvaccinated could die over the next year that could have been prevented. That is terribly sad.

I'm not surprised there are those of us that have lost emotional empathy. The risk now is if too many of us also lose cognitive empathy.

More people have died from covid19 since Biden became president than when Trump was president, and that's with the vaccine...

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Do you ever verify anything before you post it?

https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-...-trump-1661528

Do you ever read and understand what you post?

According to YOUR link more people in the United States have died since Biden was elected than died under Trump. Let's not forget that full roll out of the vaccine was announced after the elections because as the drug companies said.... "we did not want to interfere in the elections" not to mention that your source is "Newsweek" and they are not known as an accurate or scientific publication.

Be sure follow Newsweek's gymnastics attempt just get a better outlook for Biden. (Not what a real journalist is supposed to do...)

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It's easy to see what one wants to see and be blind to it all. Good idea to read the entire article.

The source of the numbers is the CDC not Newsweek.

How do you explain starting the count for Biden almost two months before Biden was in office? Biden wasn't in office on Dec. 19th. He wasn't inaugurated until January 20th of 2021.

Below is from the same Newsweek article----
The inauguration of Biden marked the point at which his administration began implementing its own strategy to contain the virus.

Though some have argued that Biden's "real" count has to start two to three weeks later due to some cases being passed over from the previous administration, for the sake of simplicity we will choose January 20 as the dividing line.

On that day the cumulative U.S. COVID death count stood at 424,401, according to CDC data, meaning that fewer people have died under Biden—379,192 in total (up to December 19).

This may be true but it means nothing.

Yes, the right wing trolls have been pumping this out recently. But the assertion- or lets say the conclusion you want to draw- is that Trump did a better job than Biden. Its moronic

It why I try not to engage with you, you aren’t an honest broker.

And…Politics should not be in this forum, take it to the Politics forum with your inane memes you seem to think are so clever.

Very soon there will be a vaccine for those 2-5 years old.

Will the unvaccinated have their children vaccinated or not? Are they prepared to risk the health, even potentially death or permanent health issues for their children who have no say in the decision?

Will party affiliation be more important than the safety of their children, will our first obligation as parents to protect our children from harm be secondary?

No the conclusion is that if the vaccine works so well then why are there more people dead after the vaccine became available.

As for an honest broker, I have pointed out facts and and shown links yet you and BC have done nothing but contort yourselves to push your crap.

You are the one that said....

"I dont think vaccines should be mandated.

I do STRONGLY believe that people should just man up and deal with the consequences of their decisions not to vaccinate: you can’t fly, you may lose your job, your kids can’t go to school, you can’t go inside any store, restaurant or other business."~ard

Yeah that sounds like freedom of choice in America.[emoji849]



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You mean the people in the age group who without the vaccine have a 0.002% chance of dying,?[emoji849]

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Welp…

What is the reason to post the link? What is your interpretation?