"A day without an immigrant" May first 2006
 

The recent protest regarding issues of immigration have prompted some to organize a national demonstration. This is an informational post to let everyone know that if previous demonstrations are any indication of how successful this could be then then perhaps everyone should know about it.

I have not seen this on the news so you should be aware.

http://tinyurl.com/q8hmj

:tsk: ;puke;
It looks like they are conveniently throwing immigrants and illegal immigrants into the same bucket again. The former are the ones they are most likely talking about above. The latter ones are criminals that don't contribute anything, and I'm sure they are what this "call to action" is all about.

See thread on this (trying to keep food-down) topic:

http://www.xoutpost.com/lounge/13914-...o-tuesday.html

Let's try "Six Months Without Illegals"

What is so blurry about the illegal and legal immigrant? I'm not getting it.

Agreed!
 

...Very succinct. Either you are here legally or you are not. End of discussion. Cheers, Wagner.

What some may not see is the organized effort to de-crimanalize-illegal- and make this a human issue. In other words some folks believe they have the right to come into the country and do this or that when in fact as an illegal alien they have no such right at all.

No one will do a thing about it. People will quietly sit in a fog as it happens. On May 1st this organized effort will be played out and people will just stand by, do nothing, and the suits in DC will protect their political life and do nothing as well.:rolleyes:

For years people have been saying this is an issue, but folks that are much smarter that john Q public were saying "oh there is no problem". Now the same people are saying it's a problem but are not willing to do a thing about it. You can also bet that any legislation that the voters would pass in favor of solving this problem would promptly be reversed by political idiots who make it a pratice to reverse the will of the people.

Man we didn't even do anything when El Presedente Fox decided to show illegals how to get into the US.

REASON: The US and Mexico quietly came to an agreement to allow this to happen. Now it's out of control and people are seeing what's going on.

Conspiracy?
 

PAGING OLIVER STONE...

when illegals start paying taxes, i'll support them.

Illegal Immigrants and taxes...
 

Gresch...They do pay 'taxes'...They often will pay $1,000+ to another illegal immigrant to smuggle them over. It's a tariff on import/export:)

I believe that they can write that off as "non-reimbursed transportation expenses" on line 14 of the 1040EZ. ;)

Line 15 on the EZ form...
 

...Followed by line #16 which is the deduction for dry-cleaning while they are out of town on travel...Sometimes, when you cross a river, it tends to mess up the starch-job on a given shirt.

Who on this forum is a genuine 100% American? Who does not come from someone who at one point was under illegal status? That's what this country is all about...I think almost 100% of immigrants want to pay taxes in order to become legal. Before making your dumb A S S comments about how good this country would be without immigrants take a step back and learn the history of the country you live in, because if it was not for immigrants (Which either your parents or grandparents at one point were) America would be a massive Greenland and none of us would be here.

North America does have a border problem and before they start kicking people out they should fix the problem that caused the current situation that we are currently in. When a water pipe breaks in your home, you don't mop the water on the floor as the pipe continues to leak, you fix the pipe then clean up; America should fix the border and all will fall into place; but then who are we to say that it's too late for someone to get a piece of the pie? That’s what this country has been all about, immigrants coming here, working and eventually leaving back to their country, besides these people are here doing the jobs that none of us in this forum would do.

"That’s what this country has been all about, immigrants coming here, working and eventually leaving back to their country, besides these people are here doing the jobs that none of us in this forum would do."

^^^Not sure I follow this statement. I don't think Americans have a problem with legal immigration. I shouldn't have to learn Spanish......

No one is forgetting the history of the country.

You are 100% correct that the US has a border problem.

No one is trying to deny anyone a LEGAL piece of the pie.

"I think almost 100% of immigrants want to pay taxes in order to become legal" I think you're way off on that one.

The US IS trying to fix the border problem. It's obviously too big of a chunk of real estate to put an INS or Border Patrol office every 20 feet, it's just impractical, so there are laws in place instead, obviously they're not working taht well, but while everyone is complaining "there's a border problem" no one seems to be suggesting a viable alternative beyond spending $5B to put up the new Berlin wall between texas and Mexico. Mexico shares a HUGE responsibility for the border problem, if the Mexican government weren't so corrupt more corporations would set up shop there and help improve the economy and the quality of life for Mexicans.

" immigrants coming here, working and eventually leaving back to their country," HUH? and while they're here getting a piece of the pie and not paying taxes, stfu about how the country is run and what they think of America and Americans, no one invited illegal aliens here, if you're going to crash a party, be polite while you're in attendance, if you don't like it, head on back home.

Why should I, a single guy with no kids, be paying school taxes to put an illegal immigrants 8 kids through the US public school system? Illegals RARELY own a house and hence pay no property taxes and hence not fund the education system, yet I the good old Amercan tax payer who plays by the rules and who does own a house and has no kids is paying astronomical property taxes of which a big chunk goes to the education system. How is that fair?

Illegal immigrants, and the key word there is ILLEGAL, seem to think that they have a voice, and rights in this country and are protected by the constitution, well, and you'll probably jump on me for this, but you know what? they don't. Just as I don't ahve a voice in Canada, or Mexico, or the UK or Spain, etc etc etc.

I've said enough, and prior to this post I've said that I would support legal immigrants as long as they pay their taxes and follow the laws of the US, and I still believe that.

I'm also single and your comments are :thumbup: !!! Like you said, no one is trying to deny something that is legally theirs. The word illegal is consistently getting passed over.

That's a pretty ignorant statement! This country is all about legal immigrants, which is not the topic of this discussion. The issue at hand is illegal immigrants, i.e. criminals that are demanding rights and privileges they don't have nor deserve. Do you really not get it? Or are you defending them because you're the one who "came from someone who at one point was under illegal status"?

Well said in plain English, gresch.

May I humbly suggest an integrated approach:

1. Simplify the employment and tax codes for small businesses in America. Our system is so f--ked up as far as making it easy for American small businesses to grow. We need border kiosks set up where by you buy a work permit, get fingerprinted pay for a background check, buy a workers comp insurance card, and go to work. Want to get paid, gotta have your cards in order.
2. Dis-incentivise American businesses to hire illegals.
3. Cut off all free medical care to illegals while ramping up a simplified and portable employee paid and controlled workers comp insurance program (think pre-paid cell phone service)
4. Freeze admission to schools for new illegal students while making sure the kids already in school are not tossed out. Make sure they pay some form of tuition for this.
5. Phase out the bi-lingual crap over a 3 year period. It's not that I don't like other languages, but English is the great assimilator; people who talk and sound alike will grow together, not apart.
6. Have a two strikes law as far as illegal border crossers. Caught once, you get finger printed, retnal scannned, dressed in a white jumpsuit and good bye. Caught twice, six months hard labor in a labor camp. After a certain amount of time, American scofflaw companies should also incur severe penalties as well. Coyotes, drug smugglers and gang members all get a day in a military court (open to the press) and then a bullet to the head.
7. Place a 25% tax and a cap on all Western Union out-country remittances. We need to monitor these monies. You want to come here, work hard, and build a life legally? Great, but let's encourage the money and the hearts and minds to stay in America.

Any other ideas?

:tsk:
It is nice for everyone to voice their opinion, but lest keep this from getting personal.
Looks like it is getting heated.

Where are you from Aleko? WOW is that a Russian Flag?? was your whole family tree born in the United States?

Please elaborate at what constitutes as a criminal? a person who comes here with a Visa and it expires?

WOW!!! TALK ABOUT IGNORANT!!!

Thanks for your stupid personal comment, but my parents were not illegal, I was born and raised in New York City and chances are that I make more money than you, pay more taxes than you, before you start taking cheap personal shots at people realize that this is a forum and we are simply debating here:thumbup:

No, my whole family tree wasn't born in the US; as a matter of fact, I'm the first generation legal immigrant myself. I came here with $400 in my wallet and I worked my butt off to get where I'm at today. I didn't expect anybody, including Government, bend over backwards to help me in any way; I didn't demend any extra priveleges to make my life easier; I've never received a penny from the Government in the form of welfare, or any other social program; the only monetary benefits I've ever received from the Government was unemployment benefits when I got laid off several years ago; I've never bitched and moaned how difficult my life is, how unfair I'm being treated, how I have to pay my own education or medical bills because back home it all was free; I didn't demand the entire Country to learn my native language so that I didn't have to learn English, etc. I can go on and on, but you get the point. That's why it rubs me the wrong way when I see those illegal immigrants bitch about being mis-treated. If it sucks so much here - go home!

A person that enters this, or any other Country illegally is a criminal. It's as easy as that. Just like any person that enters my house without my permission is a criminal.

It wasn't really a personal comment as much as just trying to understand why you'd side with criminals on this issue. And you may or may not make more money than I do and pay more taxed - I don't know, nor do I care, and it doesn't have anything to do with this thread anyways. If you want to play "my dick is bigger than yours" game - start another thread for it.

America is a country that can and at this point should be selective about who it allows to live and work within its borders. I'm a second gen. citizen, whose grandparents all emigrated here legally. My fiance got her citizenship 10 years ago after living here and for nearly ten years legally as a dependent of her mother who came here on a work visa. There was a time in history when America solicited immigration, and it was legal.

We share a border with Mexico. Geographically, it's not too hard to walk to the so-called promised land. There are probably millions of people around the world who wish they were able to just walk here for the new life that might bring.

One of our greatest assets is our diversity. We have people from all over the world (hopefully) contributing to the continued growth and advancement of America. I agree with requiring English to be spoken in public schools because of this. When I go down to Mexico, I speak Spanish. I can't rightfully expect them to speak English if I'm in a Spanish-speaking country.

With the way things are now in the world, I think becoming a legal resident or worker should be similar to admission to Harvard:
*you gotta be smart
*you gotta offer something we need
*you have to have impeccable character
*your mom and/or dad was a citizen/is here legally

JV

Fairness in immigration policy should be observed in global level, not by geographical proximity. (I really hope I an not putting myself into hot water for commenting on this sensitive topic. Forgive me in advance, if I offend anyone.) I worked with many American top school graduates who happened to be Indians from India, Chinese, Koreans, etc.. Lot of them worked long hours and below median wages (compare to American counterparts) for years to be resident aliens. Lot of them successfully settled, some had to go back home because of Visa quota running out early, dot bomb, and so on. None I know decided to stay after visa expired. They knew better... I am not saying a brilliant Chinese astro physicist shoud have a priority in this country than a guy who mows my lawn.
Yes I want my landscaping doesn't cost more than 70G I paid, and I want my favorite 30 dollar all you can eat sushi restraunt stay open. Yes, California and Texas used to be Mexico while back, but I am not sure if it is relevant now. For anything that is scarce, pleople have to wait in line like everyone else. It is just my opinion and my parents are immigrants.

I guess you and I are discussing two different things Aleko, I don't defend people who come here illegally nor do I defend people who come here and live off the government, but, if your beef is people who come here to live off the governemt "how can you get government benefits as an undocumented illegal alien?"

If a non-citizen commits a crime (however small it may be) I think they should be deported and not given an option to return ever again, our country can spend Billions and Billions of dollars at war but we can't get our shit together when it comes to a border? I think if the border problem is fixed, north america's problem is fixed; as bad as it sounds a wall ala Berlin Wall would fix the problem for good.

I am the biggest advocate of busting your ass to do better, it's the only way to get ahead in today's world, but you have to admit some of these Undocumented Alient bust their asses and are here to really work, not all of them are bad.

The main reason the government does not accept taxes from the undocumented aliens who are really working is because once a single penny is accepted as tax payment that person constitutes as a legal tax paying citizen and North America does not want to make it so easy. If you ever met any undocumented person who is here to work and has no mal-intent you will see that they want to pay taxes but can't.

lastly, while I don't defend undocumented aliens you have to admit, when push comes to shove and you have to do whatever it takes to feed your family, you will do whatever it takes, in this case it's come to North America.

Just in case, I don't want to offend anyone but America is a continent, and it's made up of South America, Central America and North America, we are all in America...not just North American's. Just as any person who is born in The Continent of Europe is European. We have to deal with the fact that we are all here to together and it will be very tough to get everyone who we North American's think should be out, lets play to our strengths and not our differences, the Govt should have undocumented people be documented ASAP and allow them to pay taxes.

Carlos,
I think I may have wondered off topic a little in my last reply, and it certainly wasn't my intent. Although Government leaches do make me furious, even more so than illegal immigrants, but that's a discussion for another day. And of course you're right - illegal immigrants wouldn't be able to get any benefits from Government (not yet anyways, but I think that's what they are pushing for), so that privilege is reserved for native/naturalized leaches... err... citizens. :mad:

I think what pisses me off the most is not even the fact that these people are here illegally; I can understand the desire to provide the best for your family at almost any cost, even if it involves crossing the border illegally. After all, most of these people have no choice thanks to El Pres Fox. It still doesn't make it right, but we all do what we have got to do. What gets me fired up though is these people's attitude, their expectations of something they "deserve". What percentage of immigrants participating in those "shows" are legal immigrants? I think we all know the answer to that one. The title of that article should have been "A day without an illegal immigrant" - that would have been much more to the point. I don't understand why they are even allowed to organize such events as these; essentially, what they are doing is threatening the Government, the people of the US, our economy, etc. with their stupid "we just won't show up for work one day and ya'll will see how much it hurts" BS.

And finally, if I were here illegally, and I wanted to stay here long enough to get my papers - I would probably keep very low profile, work hard, and spend all my time and efforts on trying to legalize, instead of participating in these stupid dog and pony shows.

The title of that article should have been "A day without an illegal immigrant"

Now we have got at least one of the points i was trying to get across.

The second point might be that public sentiment may be swayed by this huge event to the extent that the real facts are covered up. No matter what our position may be the law is still the law and this event is an attempt to say that breaking the law is ok.

#1 No you may not circumvent the proper way to do things.
#2 No you may not jump the line in front of others who have worked thru the process.
#3 No you may not lie and falseify documents to get a job.
#4 No you may not come here for the specific purpose of having your children while you pay no taxes.
#4 No you may not be a dishonest human being and expect me to support your effort at demonstrating for what you believe is your right to do so

This list could be a lot longer but the bottom line is..........

I hope that if anyone is concerned about what this demonstration could accomplish they should pass this information along as a reminder regarding whats in store.

Dude, There are seven continents: NORTH America, South America, Europe, Africa, Asia, Austrailia, Antartica

Not sure that what your point is here. As a Canadian, I am also a North American, but in the context of this thread, it is irrelevant; the topic at hand is the US, not residents of a continent. Our Canadian issues around immigration have little in common with the issues raised here.

Just slightly OT, but in the UK, people often referred to me and my family as American. No offense taken at all, but I am not American. I am North American. The best response, delivered with a smile, was usually "that's OK, all you Europeans sound the same to me as well" It was particularly effective if the person making the first comment was Scots..... :)

Jeff

Ignorance is bliss
 

FYI: A person can come here legally, look for a job legally, find one and apply, while s/he is still legally here, for legal persmission to stay here and work. However, those applications currently take anywhere from 90 - 180 days to process. S/he is allowed to stay here "legally" while it is being processed. However, if the application is denied, that person becomes an "illegal alien" the instant the application is denied. Even worse, that persons "illegal" status is RETROACTIVE to the date his/her original authorized stay expired. In other words, current immigration law treats him/her as if s/he had NEVER filed an application and had just decided to stay here illegally.

This is just one example of the way current U.S. immigration law "manufactures" illegal aliens. People who think the line between "legal" and "illegal" is bright and clear and that all "illegal" aliens are bad/immoral/criminals, etc. are simply ignorant of how screwed up our immigration laws are right now.

I'm not in favor of amnesty fwiw, but I am in favor of some sort of rational immigration policy and "kick out all the illegals" ain't it.

I think most people fail to realize that most illegal immigrants do not get into the US by sneaking across the border. They come in legally, but then overstay. Most come as tourists who are visiting, and there is really no effective way to deal with this.

Should a Mexican family not be allowed to go on vacation to the United States the same way Americans visit Mexico on vacation? What about people from other countries? Are we going to shut down the entire tourism industry in the US to foreignors? Only to people from certain countries?

I'm not sure that "most" illegal immigrants are overstays, but certainly a lot of them are. The "sneaking accross the border" flavor of illegal immigration is certainly a problem that has to be addressed, but so many people think that "illegal immigrant" = "mexican national who snuck into the U.S." and that's simply not what it means. In addition, a pretty big part of the problem is created by the laws themselves and how they're implemented (as demonstrated in my previous post). Spending time and $ trying to kick "illegals" out without addressing why and how they got here in the first place is pretty dumb imho.

That may or may not be. The point is the demonstration on May the 1st is about complete amnesty. It is not about the issue regarding the process regarding what it takes to become a citizen. The U.S. immigration law does not ask anyone to come across the border into the country illegally" and anyone who uses the excuse that the US manufactures" illegal aliens dosen't have a clue regarding what the May first issue is about. Anyone can argue about the problems of immigration but apparently millions of other people have gone thru the process legally. If they can do it so can everyone else. In this case I maintain my position that having a demonstration to justify brakeing the law dosen't cut it with me.

This is not the first time there has been a large demonstration to justify breaking a law...

One that quickly comes to mind is the demonstrations in Montgomery Alabama after the Rosa Parks incident in 1955. Rosa Parks broke the law, and the demonstrators wanted amnesty for her as well as a change in the law.

The goals of the demonstrators on May 1st is rather similar. They want Amnesty for all those who have broken this law, and they want a change in the law as well.

I actually happen to know a little bit about the "May first issue" as well as the political circumstances behind these recent grass roots efforts to keep Congress from passing an enforcement-only Bill. I also happen to know a little bit about "the process" of "legally" immigrating to the U.S. Up until 1996, an illegal alien who had a job offer, or a spouse and/or children who were already legally here, could legalize his/her status by paying a fine. That program no longer exists, so your "if they can do it so can everyone else" argument requires assumptions that simply aren't correct. This particular avenue of "legally" immigrating is gone. Many others are gone as well. Literally hundreds of thousands of immigrants "legally" immigrated to the U.S. through procedures which no longer exist. Their actions were identical to the actions of the "illegal" aliens you are currently condemning. They are legal merely because Congress says that they are, not because they are any more "moral" or "law-abiding" than "illegal" immigrants today.

Just as an example, if a U.S. citizen meets and falls in love with an illegal alien, I happen to think they should be allowed to get married and continue their lives here in the U.S.. As a U.S. citizen, I think my country should allow me to do that. Well, they don't - not anymore. This country is so interested in "punishing" my betrothed for the "crime" of sneaking into the U.S. that she is no longer allowed to legalize her status based on a marriage to me. This means she either stays here as my illegal alien wife, or I expatriate myself to go live in her country with her. Not exactly the kind of choices I think my country should be giving me - and that's just ONE example.

Looking at this demonstration as simply a demonstration to justify "breaking the law" is a very, very simplistic view of the issues involved. I could start talking about civil disobedience here, and how it has helped eliminate laws promoting segregation, gender discrimination, etc. but that would make this post even longer than it already is. Suffice it to say that you should probably investigate the law a little bit further before you decide to oppose a demonstration pertaining to that law.

Whatever the process that's avaliable is the process an honerable person should persue. Whatever existed then is not the process now so it is incumbant on those who enter the country to follow the process for legal status regardless of how you feel about it. As far as your marriage example is concerned it changes nothing. As you say your betrothed committed the "crime" of sneaking into the U.S. The operative wird here is crime. Whatever the law is if your really serious about being a citizen then follow it. Work thru the process. If there happens to be loopholes that can be taken advantage of then that to is the law until it is changed.

As you say "You could start talking about here, and how it has helped eliminate laws promoting segregation, gender discrimination but if I were you i wouldn't go there because each of the things you mention were issues facing American citizens not illegal aliens. Illegal aliens don't have the right to civil disobedience.

Additional Info. for fnelson9
 

1. If she has entered U.S. legally (with proper I-94) and overstayed, she has a very good chance of being pardoned and get a legal status by marrying a citizen. 2. However, if she has entered the country ILLEGALLY you are correct.
I am not an immigration attorney, but I personally know who went through 1.
Just my 2 cents.

Just as an example, if a U.S. citizen meets and falls in love with an illegal alien, I happen to think they should be allowed to get married and continue their lives here in the U.S.. As a U.S. citizen, I think my country should allow me to do that. Well, they don't - not anymore. This country is so interested in "punishing" my betrothed for the "crime" of sneaking into the U.S. that she is no longer allowed to legalize her status based on a marriage to me. This means she either stays here as my illegal alien wife, or I expatriate myself to go live in her country with her. Not exactly the kind of choices I think my country should be giving me - and that's just ONE example.

Question??
 

What should be done with those "illegal immigrants" that are paying taxes?? Because contrary to popular beliefs, by obtaining a tax ID number, anyone, including illegal immigrants , can file their taxes!!! Am I right to assume that the biggest problem with illegal immigration is that there are no taxes being paid and that instead there are costs, and burdens being brought upon the US??? If so, then it I would also tend to assume that the one's that are filing their taxes should be granted an amnesty and be allowed to become legal US residents!!!

So why do you have a problem with "Amnesty"?
 

So if Congress decided to pass those same laws again to create a path to legalization for these people, I guess you wouldn't have a problem with that, right? If that happened, illegal aliens would be pursuing the process thats available - the same process used by all those "honorable" illegal aliens in the past to become legal.

...yeah, and somebody always wants something for nothing...

That's what I think about all this. I don't mind legal immigrants. They paid their dues and reap the rewards. But to give citizenship to illegal aliens for free and just because "they are already here" is just wrong. Period.

Yup.
 

That's why "my betrothed" in my example entered the country illegally.;)

Actually, overstays who marry U.S. citizens don't even need a "pardon"; they can just apply for residency. No fines, no request for "forgiveness", no penalties of any kind. For the life of me, I can't figure out the difference between someone who stays illegally and someone who enters illegally, but apparantly Congress thinks there is one. :rolleyes:

That's not what they are asking for fwiw
 

You might want to read the actual legislation they are supporting instead of just reading/listening to what various commentators say about it.

Why would anyone pay taxes when they don't have to? For example, an undocumented immigrant. Because they are hoping to get amnesty in the future by establishing their alibi. http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...home-headlines

Yeah, and I might want to pretend those are American flags they're waving.

Frank,
Difference between overstay illegals and border jumpers would be that the overstays at least try to follow the legal procedures to begin with, however, the border jumpers never consider doing so to begin with.

The problem with Amnesty is that it excuses a crime. But if Congress decided to pass those same laws again to create a path to legalization for these people then I may have a problem with it and I may not like it but it would be the law. And yes illegal aliens would be pursuing the process thats available but it would not be the same process that LEGAL aliens followed and there in lies the rub. Rewarding people for commiting a crime when others have busted their buns to do it right dosen't sit well with me, and there are a lot of others who feel the same way. But let me add that it appears that on this subject it appears that we agree to disagree and so I will leave it at that. I appreciate discussing the pros and cons. Thanks

Apples and oranges

The demonstrations in Montgomery Alabama after the Rosa Parks incident in 1955 that you refer to were laws that were inacted against AMERICAN CITIZEN WHO ACCORDING TO THE CONSTITUTION deserved the rights they were being denied. ILLIGAL ALIENS do not have these rights and so the example you use does not apply. Many have tried to use the civil right movements to justify their actions and to be honest many find it an insult.

A distinction without a difference
 

That's not much of a difference, imo. They both decided not to follow U.S. immigration laws, they just made the decision at different points in time.

Actually, the real reason why this distinction exists is simply because the Immigration and Nationality Act has become such a convoluted patchwork job over the years that every time Congress tries to "fix" something, they just end up "breaking" something else. However, by the time Congress realizes they've broken something, it's usually not politically expedient to fix it.

Frank,
I hate to keep on brining counter points to you. I do understand that perhaps you have personal experiences you feel strong about. When it involves family, it is emotional and personal to many Americans and non-Americans.
There are seemingly subtle things makes whole lot of differences ie some you picked as examples. I was just concerned that not distinguishing the subtlety could mislead the forum. :)

Thanks Barry for cleaning this up. How a parallel could be drawn between the two situations was incredulous to me.