nothing comes up?

click on the link in my original post. or try this one. both work.

http://www.caranddriver.com/columns/...ock-yates.html

First link didn't work for me, this last one did. I had found it by searching the C&D site. I remember reading both of Brock's columns on hybrids. Too bad he has been put out to pasture, he was always entertaining.

Are you talking traditional cars or hybrid cars?

In my post on the autobloggreen i talk about the damage hybrid batteries do...

"What no-one has pointed out yet, is that not only hybrids take more energy in making batteries, but even more energy in recycling them...

Batteries are highly toxic & recycling them takes extremely large amounts of energy.

Energy that comes from where? Powerplants which indirectly = coal and natural gas. Powerlines also contribute to the loss, as they lose power through friction as well.

Multiply this over a car's lifetime, which will consume several sets of batteries and the environmental cost rises significantly.

And what happens if just one car's batteries end up in a landfill? That is a much bigger toxic hazard then a scraped H3.

People buy hybrids either as an image statement, or because they think they are doing the environment good.

Want to be economical? I'm all for that. Go buy a small 4 cylinder sedan. Just don't be fooled by thinking your actually doing a favor for the environment in a hybrid, when you are actually HARMING THE ENVIRONMENT!"

Could it be that me and Sanguru actually agree on something ?!

That is great, my mom totally bought hers for the image statement because she liked the idea, I never liked the idea and thought it was completly stupid but to each its own I guess.

In regards to Brock Yates, I pretty much stopped reading him over the past year. His article on the trucking industry several years back was a poor attempt to factualize urban legends. I got tired that Cannonball Run was mentioned in nearly every column he wrote. It's only unfortunate that he took his leave unceremoniously considering the length of his employment with C/D.

In his hybrid article, Yates states the following: "And speaking of the environmental component (the glamour issue centered on the brave new world of hybrids), a number of EMT and fire crews have announced that they will refuse to rescue victims trapped in such vehicles, openly fearing electrocution or fatal acid burns."

How can this be true? If the ignition system of a normal gas powered vehicle shuts off when an accident takes place, why shouldn't the same hold true for a hybrid?

XX3 - evidently you have information stating that it takes more energy to produce and properly dispose of NiMH or other deep charge batteries.
Post the information so I can see it and make my own opinion. It would be better than citing yourself.

Considering hybrids consist of slightly more than 1% of car sales, future cost models will likely change greatly. Most of what I've seen has come from the spin doctors. It would be nice to see something from the academic side. Maybe I'm not googling the right information.

So far from what I've read, NiMH battery content contain chemicals that are easier to recycle and neutralize than conventional lead-acid batteries. Obviously, a recycling industry would have arise, but at least it will happen in conjunction simultaneously as the hybrids grow beyond a niche offering. How long did it take before a cycling program went into effect for the conventional car lead-adid battery which first appeared in 1915? Something like 5 decades?

If illegal disposal of NiMH batteries were to take place, wouldn't it be by the same people currently dumping lead-acid car batteries now which are imminently more dangerous?

asawadude:

I find Brock Yates entertaining, and out of touch, but I also think they dumped him rather unceremoniously. I can still agree with many of his comments on hybrids.

Safety: almost 300 volts, not 12 volts. I Googled the following from an EMT site:

Battery:

The cells contain potassium hydroxide (Emergency Response Guidebook - guide #154) which is a highly alkalinic substance that reacts intensely with zinc, aluminum, tin, other active metals, and various type of organic compounds creating flammable hydrogen gas. Furthermore Potassium Hydroxide is hazardous to all human body tissues. Toyota required its technicians to use safety items such as alkali-resistant safety goggles, a facemask, synthetic rubber gloves, boots, an apron and a rain coat for handling the battery. Items must not be made of leather or wool.
Toyota and Honda both recommend rescuers be in the same chemical resistive equipment while working around a wrecked vehicle. Careless handling of the damaged vehicle may result in electrocution or severe injury.

It can certainly be handled by emergency response teams, but there are new and different risks for them to consider. I don't think it pays much respect to our emergency response teams to suggest that they may stand by and watch the vehicles burn without responding. Brock always did like to exagerate.

I am not as sure as you that these will grow beyond a niche market. Taxis in cities, in stop and go traffic, certainly. But how can governments afford to continue the subsidies when the numbers climb beyond the current 1%? And will taxpayers continue to support tax dollars going to those subsidies?

As the medical director for several fire/rescue/EMS departments, I can assure you none would "refuse to rescue victims" in a hybrid car. Any more than they would refuse to rescue victims of any other hazmat incident. They are trained to handle all sorts of issues like that.

It is a shame that Yates likes to put stupid exaggerations in his otherwise good writing.

xx3 points out that the creation and disposal issues far outweigh the net "green" benefits. I agree; the best thing we can do is carpool, combine errand trips, insulate our houses and push the thermostat up or down one degree....also, keep in mind that flying on a commercial airliner has a net seat/mile fuel cost equal to about that of a Honda Civic.

Conventional lead-acid batteries (lead oxide or lead sulphate) also fall under ERG guide #154 like the NiMH hybrid batteries. Is one battery particularly more hazardous than the other? Obviously the hybrid batteries are larger in size, but again, we're talking about 1% of total car sales at this point.

EMT response tactics have obvious changed with these new vehicles, but that's a simple matter of training and education to stay on top of things.

The hybrid subsidies need to stop. They don't get the MPG advertised, and in some cases get just a few more MPG than their gas counterparts. The tax benefits is a significant component in their sales; many of these tax credits are capped at a certain number of hybrid sales per manufacturer (per car classification if I'm not mistaken) after which they disappear. There could be a falloff in sales once these credits are exhausted.