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Wagner 03-06-2007 03:46 PM
More Gas Price BS.
 
Heard today the rationale for the 5th straight week of gas price increases was:

- "Summer driving months are coming"
- "Transition from MTBE to Ethanol additives"

In case you weren't paying attention last year, this is the EXACT same line they used to get prices over $3.00/gallon in the US. So look for the high 3's again in the next few months.

New Congress...same worthless policy.

noncom23 03-06-2007 03:47 PM
Like they need a reason.:confused:



Quote:
Originally Posted by WagnerX5
Heard today the rationale for the 5th straight week of gas price increases was:

- "Summer driving months are coming"
- "Transition from MTBE to Ethanol additives"

In case you weren't paying attention last year, this is the EXACT same line they used to get prices over $3.00/gallon in the US. So look for the high 3's again in the next few months.

New Congress...same worthless policy.

Quicksilver 03-06-2007 04:10 PM
Here's an interesting article of how we are nickled and dimed to death when it comes to fuel. Losts of arguments pro and con but what the article does point out is that large fuel purchases, such as those made by gas stations of 5,000 gallons or more, are adjusted for temperature, They in essance are therefore getting fuel at the best price. But when you and i buy it we don't get that option so the stations and oil companies are ripping us off again.

http://www.azstarnet.com/allheadlines/144537

Wagner 03-06-2007 04:14 PM
Awesome link Quick....

I guess my next question would be what can we do to stop this crap..or is there really no alternative......

IMO:

Hybrid cars are not the answer to lowering gas prices, if anything...they will raise them to make up the loss.

Alt. fuels, sure but the government isn't pressing them for decades out...so useless.

Congress, we tried that...they did nothing.

Quicksilver 03-06-2007 04:21 PM
In my mind the best answer to me is pass it around. (Perhaps a repost on X5 world would be a good start). Since it was your post that got this started you may pass it along if you wish. :thumbup:

My guess is that the simple paragraph you see below which is in the box in the article very few people know about. Perhaps it should be explained so that enough people know about it and it will become common knowledge. Other than that i wouldn't expect the suits to take any action against the golden goose. After all they can afford the gas.

Rules of physics cost us money
Few Americans realize that fuel is often sold at temperatures higher than the government standard of 60 degrees. It's a standard agreed to nearly a century ago by the industry and regulators. Collectively, it's costing us billions of dollars a year, according to an investigation by The Kansas City Star.

It works this way:
As a liquid, gasoline expands and contracts depending on temperature. At the 60-degree standard, the 231-cubic-inch American gallon puts out a certain amount of energy. But that same amount of gas expands to more than 235 cubic inches at 90 degrees, even though consumers still only get 231 cubic inches at the pump.

Put simply, every degree over the 60-degree standard diminishes the energy a 231-cubic-inch gallon delivers to the nation's fleet of vehicles — and forces drivers to use more fuel and pay more.

Basic physics rules mean that, depending on the temperature, the difference can amount to just a few cents per gallon. But it adds up to big money — coming straight out of consumers' pockets. Moreover, it's legal, because even though your local filling station measures your gas as if it were stored at 60 degrees, no law requires retailers to adjust the pump to reflect the expansion of hot fuel.

In Hawaii, a gallon of fuel contains nearly 234 cubic inches — about 3 cubic inches more than is dispensed in the rest of the United States. No other state adjusts for temperature fluctuations when dispensing fuel.
McClatchy-Tribune

Quote:
Originally Posted by WagnerX5
Awesome link Quick....

I guess my next question would be what can we do to stop this crap..or is there really no alternative......

IMO:

Hybrid cars are not the answer to lowering gas prices, if anything...they will raise them to make up the loss.

Alt. fuels, sure but the government isn't pressing them for decades out...so useless.

Congress, we tried that...they did nothing.

rayxi 03-06-2007 04:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quicksilver
In my mind the best answer to me is pass it around. (Perhaps a repost on X5 world would be a good start). Since it was your post that got this started you may pass it along if you wish. :thumbup:

My guess is that the simple paragraph you see below which is in the box in the article very few people know about. Perhaps it should be explained so that enough people know about it and it will become common knowledge. Other than that i wouldn't expect the suits to take any action against the golden goose. After all they can afford the gas.

Rules of physics cost us money
Few Americans realize that fuel is often sold at temperatures higher than the government standard of 60 degrees. It's a standard agreed to nearly a century ago by the industry and regulators. Collectively, it's costing us billions of dollars a year, according to an investigation by The Kansas City Star.

It works this way:
As a liquid, gasoline expands and contracts depending on temperature. At the 60-degree standard, the 231-cubic-inch American gallon puts out a certain amount of energy. But that same amount of gas expands to more than 235 cubic inches at 90 degrees, even though consumers still only get 231 cubic inches at the pump.

Put simply, every degree over the 60-degree standard diminishes the energy a 231-cubic-inch gallon delivers to the nation's fleet of vehicles — and forces drivers to use more fuel and pay more.

Basic physics rules mean that, depending on the temperature, the difference can amount to just a few cents per gallon. But it adds up to big money — coming straight out of consumers' pockets. Moreover, it's legal, because even though your local filling station measures your gas as if it were stored at 60 degrees, no law requires retailers to adjust the pump to reflect the expansion of hot fuel.

In Hawaii, a gallon of fuel contains nearly 234 cubic inches — about 3 cubic inches more than is dispensed in the rest of the United States. No other state adjusts for temperature fluctuations when dispensing fuel.
McClatchy-Tribune
There's more to it that that. Underground gasoline tanks have a fairly stable temperature. If you are filling up a full tank the bulk of the gasoline will be at the underground temperature regardless of the surface temperature. Therefore, the density of the metered gasoline is fairly constant. What could affect the density more is whether that or not the gas station just filled up from the tanker.

the head 03-06-2007 04:49 PM
One solution is to buy gas in bulk and sell to friends at a discounted price

rayxi 03-06-2007 04:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by the head
One solution is to buy gas in bulk and sell to friends at a discounted price
Where would you keep it, in your basement? :rofl:

AzNMpower32 03-06-2007 04:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rayxi
Where would you keep it, in your basement? :rofl:
Inside the 30-gallon fuel tank of a Hummer H2. DUH.

Quicksilver 03-06-2007 04:59 PM
I appreciate your comments but this issue is based on the evidence provide by the experts in the field who have already done the studies and arrived at the conclusions that we are paying to much based on this practice. (Read the article. Your opnions were already covered) If there were no evident different temperature issues that effected the cost for consumers then there would have been no need to bring it up. ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rayxi
There's more to it that that. Underground gasoline tanks have a fairly stable temperature. If you are filling up a full tank the bulk of the gasoline will be at the underground temperature regardless of the surface temperature. Therefore, the density of the metered gasoline is fairly constant. What could affect the density more is whether that or not the gas station just filled up from the tanker.

Curious Joel 03-06-2007 05:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by noncom23
Like they need a reason.:confused:
I agree. They don't need a reason to jack up gas prices. If they're going to do it, they're going to do it. Our country (and the world, for that matter) is so dependent on petroleum that we'd really have no choice but to keep on paying whatever they ask. Perhaps once we become like Europe, with their $4-6/gallon gas, Americans will start seriously thinking about the advantages of diesel, and start looking more seriously at efficient alternative energy sources. We'll eventually have to anyway, considering we're using fossil fuels at a rate way above the sustainable yield, so I don't think the government should put off development/refinement of these technologies.

Wagner 03-06-2007 05:24 PM
We already hit near 4.00/gallon last year...that did nothing. It isn't that people don't realize the costs are insane, it is "what do we do to stop it?"

The Cleaner 03-06-2007 05:25 PM
It's not popular to say, but the sooner gas it at 4+ dollars the better. To many people driving that don't have to. Move some of the SUV's off to the scrap heap as well. I think a commuter tax would be great also. There is no reason someone should spend 45-90 minutes on the road every day is a single occupancy vehicle to get to work. Move closer to work use public transportation or get a new job.

the head 03-06-2007 05:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rayxi
Where would you keep it, in your basement? :rofl:
Well I already buy 55gal drums of race fuel (which I store at one of my buildings) I could just as easily add an above ground tank like they use at small airports for AV gas they are big enough to hold a tanker truck worth of go juice...Or I could put up a gravity feed pump like they use for Ag fuel on a farm...or you could purchase an old gas station...it doesn't take a lot of thought

rayxi 03-06-2007 05:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quicksilver
I appreciate your comments but this issue is based on the evidence provide by the experts in the field who have already done the studies and arrived at the conclusions that we are paying to much based on this practice. (Read the article. Your opnions were already covered) If there were no evident different temperature issues that effected the cost for consumers then there would have been no need to bring it up. ;)
I'm not paying too much. It's well below the pump calibration temperature more than half the year here. I figure I'm ahead by at least $0.38 a year. Woohoo! ;) [edit] I stand corrected. Or rather, the Canadian pumps stand corrected. We use a temperature sensor in our pumps to make corrections back to the reference of 15 C. I guess they want their $0.38 from me.

And I would hardly call The Kansas City Star an authority on physics.

Wagner 03-06-2007 05:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Cleaner
It's not popular to say, but the sooner gas it at 4+ dollars the better. To many people driving that don't have to. Move some of the SUV's off to the scrap heap as well. I think a commuter tax would be great also. There is no reason someone should spend 45-90 minutes on the road every day is a single occupancy vehicle to get to work. Move closer to work use public transportation or get a new job.
WOW, that commentary just made a lot of assumptions..but I do agree with some aspects. Except in the "move closer to work" line. There are people, a large amount of people, that can't afford to live where they work. So to simply right it off as "move closer" is BS unless you can change the entire real estate market. I agree that there are too many drivers on the road that don't need to be there. For one, SHIPPING TRUCKS. I can't remember who it was running the commercial..but it was about a shipping company moving away from highway shipping to rail shipping. We also need to demand more in that hydrogen technology, it should be here and available in the next 5 years, not 15 years. Manufacturers have been playing with Hydrogen for over a decade.....think of where you cell phone has gone in a decade because the demand was there.

the head 03-06-2007 05:46 PM
Public transport is an infrastructure issue I live in a city that has horrid public transport...the city has just finished putting up 4 new parking ramps downtown though...as for the rail comment good call you can hold twice as much stuff in a boxcar then in a tractor trailer...we use it to transport appliances rail is great if the industrial area is built for it...but out of our 7 warehouses in the midwest only one has a rail spur...it is not common enough and it is definately not cost effective to unload at a rail depot and transport across town

Quicksilver 03-06-2007 05:54 PM
Come on. You actually believe The Kansas City Star is an authority on physics and they made the whole thing up. :dunno: Please..:confused:

Quote:
Originally Posted by rayxi
And I would hardly call The Kansas City Star an authority on physics.

Quicksilver 03-06-2007 06:04 PM
That's great for you. But for others the picture may not be so rosey.

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/15370193.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by rayxi
I'm not paying too much. It's well below the pump calibration temperature more than half the year here. I figure I'm ahead by at least $0.38 a year. Woohoo! ;) [edit] I stand corrected. Or rather, the Canadian pumps stand corrected. We use a temperature sensor in our pumps to make corrections back to the reference of 15 C. I guess they want their $0.38 from me.

And I would hardly call The Kansas City Star an authority on physics.

The Cleaner 03-06-2007 06:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WagnerX5
WOW, that commentary just made a lot of assumptions..but I do agree with some aspects. Except in the "move closer to work" line. There are people, a large amount of people, that can't afford to live where they work. So to simply right it off as "move closer" is BS unless you can change the entire real estate market. I agree that there are too many drivers on the road that don't need to be there. For one, SHIPPING TRUCKS. I can't remember who it was running the commercial..but it was about a shipping company moving away from highway shipping to rail shipping. We also need to demand more in that hydrogen technology, it should be here and available in the next 5 years, not 15 years. Manufacturers have been playing with Hydrogen for over a decade.....think of where you cell phone has gone in a decade because the demand was there.

I actually ratchet the post down a lot from what I wanted to say. I don’t really buy the argument that people can’t afford to live close to work. In fact one can argue it’s more expensive to drive 50 miles each way to get to work than it is to buy closer to work.

Bridges in the bay area are 4-5 bucks a day and many people have to cross 2 per day, diving 25k miles a year will wear out a car every 5 years, so thats about 25 dollars a day in car payments. Add in lets say 5 gallons of gas a day at 3 bucks is 15 more dollars a day. So just to get to work we are talking roughly 45 bucks a day, average 21 working days a month and you have 945 dollars a month to get to work. I don’t include insurance or cost of your time in that calculation. It’s a generally fair number. 945 paid into a mortgage can significantly improve your buying power.

Quicksilver 03-06-2007 06:24 PM
Your working on the conclusion that people could afford to live in SFO on the $945.00 extra a month? Well that would be fine if indeed there was some place to live if all those people decided to move there. Thats where i believe your argument falls short. Not only that but there's the I prefer not to live there factor. Just imagine it everyone who work's in SFO lives right there. Think about it! Not very pratical is it? Not even sensible.

You want sensible? Think "key system". You want idiotic? Lets remove it cause we are smart. Now what you have are fools dressed up in suits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Cleaner
I don’t really buy the argument that people can’t afford to live close to work. In fact one can argue it’s more expensive to drive 50 miles each way to get to work than it is to buy closer to work.

Bridges in the bay area are 4-5 bucks a day and many people have to cross 2 per day, diving 25k miles a year will wear out a car every 5 years, so that about 25 dollars a day in car payments. Ad in lets say 5 gallons of gas a day at 3 bucks is 15 more dollars a day. So just to get to work we are talking roughly 45 bucks a day, average 21 working days a month and you have 945 dollars a month to get to work. I don’t include insurance or cost of your time in that calculation. It’s a generally fair number. 945 paid into a mortgage can significantly improve your buying power.

blondboinsd 03-06-2007 06:28 PM
Same with San Diego, not everyone can afford to Pay 600+ for a condo in the San Diego metro area OR want to live downtown, I'd LOVE to take the train or trolly to my work, but there is nothing besides a bus I would use, no way I'm doing that

Wagner 03-06-2007 06:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Cleaner
I actually ratchet the post down a lot from what I wanted to say. I don’t really buy the argument that people can’t afford to live close to work. In fact one can argue it’s more expensive to drive 50 miles each way to get to work than it is to buy closer to work.

Bridges in the bay area are 4-5 bucks a day and many people have to cross 2 per day, diving 25k miles a year will wear out a car every 5 years, so thats about 25 dollars a day in car payments. Add in lets say 5 gallons of gas a day at 3 bucks is 15 more dollars a day. So just to get to work we are talking roughly 45 bucks a day, average 21 working days a month and you have 945 dollars a month to get to work. I don’t include insurance or cost of your time in that calculation. It’s a generally fair number. 945 paid into a mortgage can significantly improve your buying power.

You need to check out the real estate market then. My current home, 4000sqft cost lets say north of 3/4 of a million. Now a home near my work at 2600sqft costs the same and is 15 years older. That downsize is not an option.

The Cleaner 03-06-2007 06:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WagnerX5
You need to check out the real estate market then. My current home, 4000sqft cost lets say north of 3/4 of a million. Now a home near my work at 2600sqft costs the same and is 15 years older. That downsize is not an option.
I'm hip to the prices, I have a home that is no place close to 4000sqft, it's a shade less than 1700 with my latest addition. Build in 63 and looks similar to everyone else's in the area. 5 minutes from SFO and about that far from my job It's worth a similar number to your 4000sqft set up. My point was only that it's not a strong argument to state that many commuters cant afford to live close to work, the reality is they choose not to for the schools, the square footage or weather. Whatever the reason it's not financial and I am of the opinion that commuters should pay for the miles they drive in fuel taxes.

I know it's not popular but I can live with the criticism.

AzNMpower32 03-06-2007 07:30 PM
All higher gas prices will do is increase demand for those "hybrids". :stickpoke (shudders) It won't really reduce driving or increase public transportation that much.

bjo 03-06-2007 07:38 PM
All of us here can afford to buy X5's, we have to live with the decisions we make. If gas is too expensive for you downsize to a smaller more fuel efficient car.

Our gas is cheaper than most places in the world.

Wagner 03-06-2007 07:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjo
All of us here can afford to buy X5's, we have to live with the decisions we make. If gas is too expensive for you downsize to a smaller more fuel efficient car.

Our gas is cheaper than most places in the world.

Every time someone posts this comment...:tsk:

Think about others for crying out loud. Just cause it works for your financial situation doesn't mean it works for others..no wonder people dislike Bimmer owners. That is the type of opinion they hear. As for the cheaper then the rest comment, again...everyone says this. I guess Iraqis should shut the hell up because they pay 2.00 a gallon for fuel.....when it use to be pocket change, but hey they are cheaper then the rest....

That logic makes zippy sense. Basically screw others, think only of your situation...and no matter what your situation, if you have it better then others...don't comment.

Curious Joel 03-06-2007 08:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AzNMpower32
All higher gas prices will do is increase demand for those "hybrids". :stickpoke (shudders) It won't really reduce driving or increase public transportation that much.
I bet it would increase use of public transportation if we had consistent, reliable, wide-spread public transportation. For example, look at Europe. The railways and buses run like clockwork, and make it easy to get just about anywhere.
Where I live, my choice is either drive or walk. And believe me, there isn't anything within walking distance of my house. The nearest thing I could walk to would be a gas station, and that would take like.. an hour. In Concord, the city closest to me, there is the CAT.. Concord Area Transit. It's not worth it to use it though.

Quicksilver 03-07-2007 12:01 AM
How funny. :rofl: Guess you never heard of people living beyond their means huh? :nanana:


Quote:
Originally Posted by bjo
All of us here can afford to buy X5's

AzNMpower32 03-07-2007 12:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curious Joel
I bet it would increase use of public transportation if we had consistent, reliable, wide-spread public transportation. For example, look at Europe. The railways and buses run like clockwork, and make it easy to get just about anywhere.
+1. The Metro (subway) system in DC works decently, but unless you live in the suburbs and need to get downtown, it's slower and inefficient. The lines run like a star, with each line going downtown and then back out to another suburb/area.

Also, the busses are even worse. The walk to my nearest bus stop is 10min, but that line gets from point A (my stop) to point B (the metro stop) via points C thru Z. So even if you took the bus, it'd take forever.

bjo 03-07-2007 01:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WagnerX5
Every time someone posts this comment...:tsk:

Think about others for crying out loud. Just cause it works for your financial situation doesn't mean it works for others..no wonder people dislike Bimmer owners. That is the type of opinion they hear. As for the cheaper then the rest comment, again...everyone says this. I guess Iraqis should shut the hell up because they pay 2.00 a gallon for fuel.....when it use to be pocket change, but hey they are cheaper then the rest....

That logic makes zippy sense. Basically screw others, think only of your situation...and no matter what your situation, if you have it better then others...don't comment.
No, it's because I got tired of hearing people complain about the price of gas on a BMW board. I did not say that I have it better than others.

Eric5273 03-07-2007 04:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Cleaner
I don’t really buy the argument that people can’t afford to live close to work. In fact one can argue it’s more expensive to drive 50 miles each way to get to work than it is to buy closer to work.
I'm not sure how it is in CA, but here in NY, almost nobody can afford to live near where they work. The problem is that wages are lower than the cost of living. As you get out further from NYC, cost of living goes down, but of course so do wages accordingly.

So for example, a cheap studio apartment in Manhattan is going to cost upwards of $2000 per month. And for a decent place to live in Manhattan, you are going to pay over $3,000 per month. 95% of those who work in Manhattan cannot not afford to live there. But of course, Manhattan is the business and commercial center of the entire region, so that is where most of the jobs are. So most people working in Manhattan (or anywhere in NYC) commute from the suburbs to work, and most drive at least 20-30 miles each way, pay for tolls to cross bridges, and pay to park their cars in the city. Either that, or they spend 2-3 hours per day on a train and/or bus, and pay high prices to do that. But still, it is cheaper as they will save $1000-2000 per month in cost of living.

It would be wonderful if all those people could find jobs out in the suburbs near home, but not only are there not enough jobs available in the suburbs, but those jobs do not pay as well as the jobs in Manhattan. So many people who work in the suburbs, are forced to live even further out in the suburbs where the cost of living is still cheaper.

Wagner 03-07-2007 05:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjo
No, it's because I got tired of hearing people complain about the price of gas on a BMW board. I did not say that I have it better than others.

Alright then, I guess if you are on a BMW board you don't have to worry about any one else.

the head 03-07-2007 11:21 AM
It is not like worrying about others or not when it comes to gas prices is going to accomplish anything anyway...Either you can afford to drive to work or you can't...if you can't reevaluate your situation...Gasoline has (and still is) below the rate of inflation in the long term adjustments like this happen occasionally...besides the oil industry is a business...like any business they are around to make a profit...Sack up and deal or buy a Tesla

Wagner 03-07-2007 11:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by the head
It is not like worrying about others or not when it comes to gas prices is going to accomplish anything anyway...Either you can afford to drive to work or you can't...if you can't reevaluate your situation...Gasoline has (and still is) below the rate of inflation in the long term adjustments like this happen occasionally...besides the oil industry is a business...like any business they are around to make a profit...Sack up and deal or buy a Tesla
:tsk:

rebound 03-07-2007 11:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AzNMpower32
+1. The Metro (subway) system in DC works decently, but unless you live in the suburbs and need to get downtown, it's slower and inefficient. The lines run like a star, with each line going downtown and then back out to another suburb/area.

Also, the busses are even worse. The walk to my nearest bus stop is 10min, but that line gets from point A (my stop) to point B (the metro stop) via points C thru Z. So even if you took the bus, it'd take forever.
-1. I honestly don't believe that Americans will ever utilize mass transit (I'm talking about on average across the nation, not just in big cities), no matter how good/convenient it is. It's just not in our nature. We're all about freedom and independence, right down to the ability to jump in our personal automobile and go where we want, when we want. And so far, it seems we're willing to pay for that "right."

Is that the way we should be? No, but good luck getting everyone (or even most) to agree.


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