Originally Posted by blondboinsd

*shakes Head* The Union's have really lost their way, I feel they we're once needed but now? Sorry

Originally Posted by Eric5273

Of course unions are not needed. We all know how wages are at their highest ever today compared to cost of living. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by CGSTL

It seems simple to me - maybe too simple because I've never been in a union. The more you pack on the back of the mule, the slower he goes. Pretty soon he'll be unable to compete and will eventually fall down and die. We're seeing that slow death now.

It sounds like each round of negotions ratchets up the amount in the UAW package that the automaker has to carry, and it's not just salary.

Successful large companies don't carry huge labor package burdens such as lifetime pension payments and retiree healthcare benefits. Instead, the employees contribute to their 401K's and do other saving/investment options.

Why can't the unions see that this old-school model no longer enables big companies to compete globally?

I apologize if i offended any union folks - but IMO, the path the UAW has been on for decades will do nothing but seal the bankrupt fate of the US automakers. The pack gets heavier and heavier....

Originally Posted by Wagner

Good Call. Nobody would have the nuts to propose that though.

Originally Posted by CGSTL

Successful large companies don't carry huge labor package burdens such as lifetime pension payments and retiree healthcare benefits. Instead, the employees contribute to their 401K's and do other saving/investment options.

Why can't the unions see that this old-school model no longer enables big companies to compete globally?

Originally Posted by CGSTL

It seems simple to me - maybe too simple because I've never been in a union. The more you pack on the back of the mule, the slower he goes. Pretty soon he'll be unable to compete and will eventually fall down and die. We're seeing that slow death now.

It sounds like each round of negotions ratchets up the amount in the UAW package that the automaker has to carry, and it's not just salary.

Successful large companies don't carry huge labor package burdens such as lifetime pension payments and retiree healthcare benefits. Instead, the employees contribute to their 401K's and do other saving/investment options.

Why can't the unions see that this old-school model no longer enables big companies to compete globally?

I apologize if i offended any union folks - but IMO, the path the UAW has been on for decades will do nothing but seal the bankrupt fate of the US automakers. The pack gets heavier and heavier....

Originally Posted by CGSTL

Stat of the day: For every 1 worker currently employed at GM there are 7 who are retired and supported with pension payments and healthcare.

Originally Posted by motordavid

Good question, BigR.
I suspect that somewhere in the previous collective bargaining agreement, with GM/FoMoCo/Chrysler,
(a tome of thousands of pages), is some boilerplate about the hourly employees being represented by
the UAW and thus, the UAW group is the group of workers that work there...if that translates.

I'll skip doing a search to C&P union/strike breaking stuff historically, but I do have first hand knowledge
of seeing a large Donnelly printing plant being struck, locking out it's striking workers and bringing in several
hundred "scabs" to keep it running. Not sure GM could come up with 73,000 workers in a short time,
or wouldya wanna buy that Cadillac CTS as it first rolled off the live having been done by a horde of new hires
off the street?!

But, in a word, no...car mfg'ers do not have to employ only workers that are unionized or, represented by the UAW;
most, if not all of the "offshore mfg'ers" do not have much if any union representation and even less UAW representation.

If memory serves, some NUMMI plants and a Mitsubishi sub ass'bly plant has some UAW representation. The Toyota
plants have thus far escaped the UAW's greedy tentacles, but they have them in their sights, I'm sure.
My Qtr's up.
BR,mD

Originally Posted by rebound

From today's Detroit Free Press (selected quotes):

UAW members would rather be coming to work instead of reporting for strike duty, said Albert Creer, a 50-year-old worker at Pontiac Assembly, who took over the early morning strike shift for the overnighters like Davis.

But GM pushed the union too far, he said.

Polovich and Washington had never met before but quickly found they had one thing in common. Both are third-generation GM workers.

When she heard the news of a strike earlier that day, Washington said she drove to her local and asked what shift they needed filled. She wanted to be among the first to strike.

''It's part of my legacy,'' Washington said. In particular, she wanted to protect health care benefits for her mother, she said.

Polovich, who has 39 years with GM, went through a local strike 10 years ago. He was hoping to retire before another strike was called.

''I was so annoyed when this happened,'' Polovich said.

But he also pointed to legacy as a reason for signing up to picket the first night of the strike. He wanted to show his support for the union and UAW President Ron Gettelfinger, he said.

''Gettelfinger is in there fighting tooth and nail,'' Polovich said. ''I have to show him we're backing him. Without us, he's got nothing.''

He supports the strike, but it's no joke, Einheuser said. It's serious business that costs both workers and the company money. ''I'm a wise enough old man to know you don't laugh at your job,'' he said.

Clark and Davis agreed. Clark has 31 years with GM but has never been through a strike. She trusts the words of her UAW president who said Monday that the union had given enough to help GM.

In the past two years, the UAW has approved a health care deal and buyout programs to help save the company money.

''I'd rather be in there working,'' Clark said in the wee hours of the morning. ''But they take take take and what do we get? Nothing.''

Davis headed home Tuesday, somber and sleepy. If the strike carries on two or three weeks, people could start losing their cars and houses, he feared.

The strike is a necessary evil, he and his colleagues said. The UAW has to take a stand, Davis said.

''It's not that I like what's going on, but I'm proud of what I'm doing,'' he said.

Freep Link

Originally Posted by vinuneuro

All automakers do NOT have to be run by the UAW. I know that none of the import makers' plants are unionized. Those UAW rascal's have tried though. They already tried their crap on a Nissan plant. A certain american MNC engine maker has two plants that produce identical products. One is UAW run, the other isn't. Cost difference >$110mil/yr. That's a fact. Guess which one isn't going to survive.

It's too bad that the Big 3 continue to get raped. They're putting forth pretty good effort to make vehicles that are on par with the Japanese, Germans and Koreans.

Originally Posted by vinuneuro

All automakers do NOT have to be run by the UAW. I know that none of the import makers' plants are unionized. ...

Originally Posted by CGSTL

Does anyone see the parallel here? You can't wein the pup from the pig once the suckling starts. There are too many sucklings and Mother Sow finally runs dry.

Now let's scale this model to National Healthcare. You may as well just throw our best-in-the-world doctors into a pit of quicksand. A slow death of our healthcare system from which we could never turn back.

Originally Posted by motordavid

V, no arm wrestle, but I'm pretty sure there are a few smallish output
and/or subassembly "import" plants that are UAW...
BR,mD

From my earlier ramble post, below; I'd search but I'm pretty certain there are
some NUMMI/Mitsubishi plants and there is some considerable "UAW
labor" mfg'd 'content' in some Toyotas. Not nitpicking, however.


"If memory serves, some NUMMI plants and a Mitsubishi sub ass'bly plant has some
UAW representation. The Toyota plants have thus far escaped the UAW's greedy tentacles,
but they have them in their sights, I'm sure."

Originally Posted by Wagner

No Quick, we're against the UAW union, not unions in general. I think this thread been very specific to union work as it pertains to automobile manufacturing. Why? Well..a plumbers union strike against a business in the US still leaves you with plenty of other US plumbers, however, a UAW strike leaves you nothing but imports.

Originally Posted by rebound

But it's the profit motive that's ruining healthcare!

[/ericmode=off]

Originally Posted by CGSTL

With the spread increasing, where's the money going??? INSURANCE COMPANIES.

Originally Posted by Eric5273

Bingo!

The insurance companies are the problem. And yes, they are the ones making the profit. The less care they provide, the more profit they make. So their goal is to provide as little care as they possibly can. This is why the American health care system is gradually falling behind the rest of the world.

Originally Posted by CGSTL

Well how is it that these two demons never get mainstream press?

1) Insurance profits are soaring while skilled doctors are quitting due to decreasing compensation?

2) Trial Lawyers convince profoundly dumb juries to award jackpot settlements whenever physicians make just one mistake. The result: No Internal or ER doc will give you the time of day until you've have thousands of dollars of diagnostic tests to give then the answer as to what's really wrong with you.

Every day in the ER:
1) Doc, I bumped my head. --> Head Cat Scan ordered ($500)
2) Doc, I feel dizzy. --> Brain MRI ordered ($900)
3) Doc, I have a pain in my stomach. --> Abdomen/Pelvis Cat Scan ($700)

What used to happen before the jackpot trial lawyers:
1) Bumped head? Take this Tylenol and I'll observe you for a few hours ($45 office visit)
2) Dizzy? You looked dehydrated so I have you an IV and observed your progress ($250)
3) Stomach pain? I observed you for two hours and it want away. You had gas. ($45)

You wouldn't believe how many ER CT scans and MRI's come up NORMAL, NORMAL, NORMAL because ER docs are now forced into such an anti-suit defensive position. They're no longer allowed to routinely make a diagnosis because a suing lawyer will ask him on the stand: Why didn't you send your patient to get a $1000 MRI when it was just down the hall??? One mistake every 10,000 patients forces the ER doc to have all patients radiologically scanned for lawsuit protection.

I'm sure happy that our malpractice trial lawyers are richer than our doctors.
My qtr's up.

Originally Posted by rebound

What's interesting is that the article from the Detroit paper didn't say what the walkout was based on.

The article in the CNN link didn't either. One even said that both sides were very close to reaching an agreement.

Very strange...

Originally Posted by CGSTL

Who's making the profit???

Physician compensation dropped 10% last year, will drop 10% this year, and will drop another 10% for the next two years. Government sets medicare reimbursement rates for specific procedures, private insurance companies follow. Pretty soon you're going to have mass exodus of highly talented doctors into retirement as it's no longer worth the 12 hours days, on-call nights and 100+ chances per day to get sued by ambulance-chasing lawyers.

So lets look at the cost aspect:
Private Health Insurance Rates: Steadily rising
Reimbursement Paid to Physicians: Steadily falling
With the spread increasing, where's the money going??? INSURANCE COMPANIES.

Insurance companies are taking advantage of this situation by the US Gov't: "We only have $10B to pay out on Medicare reimbursements this year, and there are more piglets suckling on the sow, so we'll just pay the doctors less for each procedure they do."

Oh, and Dr. Smith, don't you ever make one little mistake or I'll sue your for millions and make your malpractice premium go from $35K per year to $50K - even when you've never been sued.

Rebound, go wander through your local V.A. hospital sometime. That's NOT profit driven. Your healtcare is absolutely pathetic because there's no competition for patient referrals, no motive to work efficiently which leads to LONG waits for just routine care, and you get the doctors who may not have the talent to compete in a profit driven market. OR, their trained in a foreign country and imported because no other docs want to work in those conditions. When a doctor goes on straight salary, at 5:00PM, he/she goes home to be with the family and leaves patients to wait for tomorrow.

Originally Posted by Quicksilver

Exactly:

It would be nice to know what they are in dis-agreement about. :thumbup:

Originally Posted by Wagner

That and not pissing and moaning that their middle of the road skills deserve special attention.

Originally Posted by rebound

Seriously, you need to stop drinking white gas - now.

It's called sarcasm, here's a link:

Dictionary.com

Originally Posted by CGSTL

:rofl: You got me! It was a little late in the evening... :)