FSETH, you're talking about the LF-A as if it will be an M5/M6 competitor. Oh, no, this will be an all-out F430/DB9/R8 V10/911 Turbo/GT-R/NSX/Gallardo competitor, with a sticker to match. You could be your house that it won't sell too well :)

Well, that's the image the company is trying to change. Like the NSX, it'll be head-head against the 911 in price and performance (let's see). Though I've never been a fan of anything Toyota has produced, I'll reserve judgment till we know what it drives like. Maybe this is a turning point for the brand, who knows.

You guys may be right. I just cringe when I hear Lexus and 911 in the same sentence. Old habbit. I guess I will wait to read reviews until I bash it anymore. I have to say that I already like the styling better than the GT-R and the engine does sound sweet. I just thought it was funny that the engine stats are identical to BMW's V-10 from the M5/M6 and I have always hated Lexus for the way they have ripped off BMW and other European manufacturers in the past with their designs and so on. I know that the Lexus engine is also probably derived from their racing engines so that may be where the similarities are coming from in this case.

I doubt they went after the BMW V10 considering it powers a four-door car. The next gen NSX will use a V10 too..and guess what, it's supposed to make 500hp+. :rofl:

You're right though..minus maybe the Highlander, Sienna and Tundra, Toyota produces some pretty craptacular vehicles.

It doesn't matter what type of car the engine is in. I was referring specifically to Lexus using a V10 in general and more specifically one very similar similar to the BMW V10. I know that this new Lexus is not competition for the M5 or M6. I was referring to the fact that BMW is one of the only car manufacturers that Lexus has it's eyes on that utilizes V10's in their upscale performance cars. Don't underestimate how much Lexus, Infiniti and Acura pay attention to German cars. If BMW was pushing V-8's like everyone else I would be very surprised if Lexus stepped outside the box and developed a V10 car. They are not trendsetters with regards to performance. They would have probably fell in line and produced this car with a V8. So now with this Lexus and the new NSX the Japanese V10 craze is officially on.

An engine is meaningless outside the context of it's application; that's why they're not copying BMW. Very similar to BMW V10 because it has 500hp? Now let's translate that to the given application. 500hp sure, but the power-weight ratio created will be very different given the vehicles they go in. Look at the output of the 911t, the competitor to these vehicles: 480hp, right at the neck of the V10's powering the Honda and Toyota.

As The Cleaner pointed out to me last week, Porsche is nearing the design limit of the 911. The 3.6L flat-6 is close to the maximal displacement for a 6cyl (na or fi), and the turbo models aren't run in motorsport apart from the factory team.

With regards to Honda's V10. Believe me that BMW's V10 has 0% to do with that decision. Honda has always been outspoken about it's unwillingness to use a V8 in it's production vehicles (don't ask why). It goes as far back as the use of a V6 in the NSX, and also the McLaren F1. At the time the car was conceived, Honda was the engine supplier to the Formula One team. You can see how so many years later, it's obvious that the competition is forcing their hand into using a V10 for the next NSX:

However, during that time, in Honda's philosophy there was a resistance to large engines with many cylinders. I am not certain, but probably at the time, the voluntary restraint on power limits was a factor. Being a fan of Honda engines, I later went to Honda's Tochigi Research Center on two occasions and requested that they consider building for the McLaren F1 a 4.5 liter V10 or V12. I asked, I tried to persuade them, but in the end could not convince them to do it, and the McLaren F1 ended up equipped with a BMW engine.
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Here's the piece by Gordon Murray himself on how the NSX inspired the conception and design of the McLaren F1 in almost every way: http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dggtsppm_6cgtnscht

BMW just developed the N63 4.4 bi-turbo engine for use in all V8 configurations which would include 5, 6, 7, X5 and X6 vehicles. These are cars of all different weights and sizes so how can an engine be meaningless outside it's application? We are not talking about the performance of a particular vehicle with that engine inside of it, we are talking about that ENGINE by itself. Many manufacturers use one particular engine in many different types of cars such as the AMG 6.3 litre engine that is jammed into everything MB AMG these days, from cars to SUV's.

I was also referring mainly to Lexus/Toyota as being BMW copy-cats, not Honda. Acura somewhat seperates itself from BMW where Lexus and Infiniti are trying to be Japanese versions of BMW.

You're talking about the modularity/cross-functionality of an engine and are missing the point. Just because BMW makes a V10, it isn't going to drive Toyota to put a V10 in their flagship exotic, because the context is that the BMW V10 is in a four-door family car. Your logic especially doesn't work since the engine at hand is used only in the M5 and in no other vehicle in the BMW lineup. Nissan and Honda both made it clear that the 911 is the benchmark for their vehicles, it's a pretty obvious case from any angle for the LF-A too.

I will agree to disagree at this point. I get that the 911 is their main competition, but I just do not see Lexus pumping out V10 supercars if BMW didn't make the V10 mainstream in Europe first. Trust me, just about everyhting BMW does drives Lexus to do what they do. Oh, BMW is using their V10 F1 engines as a basis for performance road cars maybe we should do the same? That is the whole Lexus/Toyota attitude. Never leaders, always followers.

You're still missing the whole context issue. Especially at this caliber of performance, an engine isn't chosen based on fancy-fare. The budgets for these programs are tremendous and the resources put forth are to make the vehicle perform optimally. Every decision regarding a car like this is made based on performance, and performance only.

The main reason I can't accept your arguement is the fact that's it's based almost entirely on speculation with little to no logic behind it. Here's some sound logic: where does Toyota copy BMW? With vehicles like the LS where their competition is the 7-series. It makes sense to copy there since the competition is BMW. That's the bottom line for any company, design and develop against the product's competitor (not some irrelevant four-door car). In this case, the competitor is the 911.

I don't like Toyota, but in the interest of being objective I gotta say that so far I've only seen Toyota copy BMW on two vehicles (the Camry/5series and LS/7-series) and both of those were only body styling. In the mechanical department, BMW has done copying; from Honda on the direct-yaw awd concept and now the 8spd trans off Lexus.