low-level output on stock system
 

Hello!

Is there any low-level output on the stock X5 audiosystem? Were is it located in the car? Diagrams?

I have the system with tv/nav but without the DSP amp.

What are you trying to integrate into the vehicle and I will give you the best case scenario on what to use to integrate this product.

Yes, but it depends on your car's manufacture date. If you have the non-DSP system, you can get low-level outputs from the radio module in the trunk. BMW switched to the "new gen" radio in 2002, so I will list the radio pinouts for both types of radios.


Old Gen Radio Main 17-Pin Plug X18126
Pin 1 Left Front Audi Output (+)
Pin 2 Right Front Audio Output (+)
Pin 3 Left Rear Audio Output (+)
Pin 4 Telephone mute signal
Pin 5 Switched +12V
Pin 6 Right Rear Audio Output (+)
Pin 7 I/K-bus signal link
Pin 8 Left Front Audio Ground (-)
Pin 9 Un-switched +12V
Pin 10 Speedometer (A) output signal
Pin 11 Right Front Audio Ground (-)
Pin 12 Left Rear Audio Ground (-)
Pin 13 Night light signal
Pin 14 Right Rear Audio Ground (-)
Pin 15 Radio ground
Pin 16 Radio ON/antenna signal
Pin 17 Not used


New Gen Radio Main 16-pin Plug
Pin Description / Signal type
Pin 1 Right Rear Audio Output (+)
Pin 2 Right Front Audio Output (+)
Pin 3 Left Front Audio Output (+)
Pin 4 Left Rear Audio Output (+)
Pin 5 Right Rear Audio Ground (-)
Pin 6 Right Front Audio Ground (-)
Pin 7 Left Front Audio Ground (-)
Pin 8 Left Rear Audio Ground (-)
Pin 9 I/K-bus signal link
Pin 10 Telephone mute signal
Pin 11 Telephone ON signal
Pin 12 Radio ground
Pin 13 Antenna supply
Pin 14 Night light signal
Pin 15 Unswitched +12V
Pin 16 Switched +12V

is the pins that you marked as audio output +/- low-level outputs? even with non-dsp systems?

I recently had a Parrot bluetooth kit fitted and the installer couldn't get the telephone mute pin to work on my system.

Am thinking I will try testing the corresponding pin from your pin guide. Any idea when the change over for radios was during 2002? (I will count the number also.)

For testing: presumably the radio needs a 12V positivie signal pulse to activate the mute function. Can anybody confirm this? And what is the telephone ON pin for? Stupid question probably.

Thanks a million!

Yes, the radio changes behavior, depending on the amp connected to it. If DSP, then the signals are low level, but full volume. If standard HiFi amp, then I believe that they are "normal" low level. If no amp (only offered in Europe), then the radio puts out speaker level, but low wattage outputs.

This is exactly the info I need (ok, took me a long time to find it:-)

I could adapt high level (speaker) signals down to line level for an amp, but I'd prefer to get line out if possible. Is there any way to fool the radio into thinking there's a basic amp connected?

But in this case are they not balanced signals as per el_duderino's info?

http://www.xoutpost.com/bsws-mobile-e...dsp-audio.html

The radio communicates with the amp over the car's I-Bus. So, you could simply buy a used amp and connect it to power, ground, and I-Bus. Then, the radio would detect the presence of the stock amp and do whatever it does in response. This would be a good experiment, to see if the volume changes in the car when the radio "sees" the amp.

But as I understand it from the thread I mentioned above, wouldn't that produce balanced signals?

I don't know if the balanced signal behavior changes with the amp connected. For all I know, it probably does. The system is pretty sophisticated.

That being a euphamism for overly complex :)

Old radio has round pins, the new one has flat blades. You cannot mistake the 2.

d-

Let's clarify - the signal is not capable of driving a speaker since it is low wattage, but it is not "normal low level".

A normal low level is an unbalanced output that is typically in the 0.1-1V range.

The BMW radio unit will revert to +/- 5V balanced outputs (ie. 10V inputs). These are NOT compatible with most aftermarket amplifiers unless that amp accepts high level inputs.

d-

They do not become unbalanced, they simply begin to change volume with the head unit controls.

d-

This is incorrect. There are three versions of the E38/E39/X5 audio system. There is the standard stereo, the HiFi system, and the Top HiFi (DSP) system. The standard stereo system was never available in the US market, but it was very common in other global markets. In the standard stereo system, the radio drives the speakers directly, and there is no separate amp in the car. Read the technical details in the WDS and study the wiring diagrams for the standard audio for more details.

I was referring only to the ones with an amplifier - otherwise there is nothing to "revert" from. Sorry, I should have been more specific.

d-

Here's an interesting take on this matter-

In which case the radio module could drive a third party amp without having to fool it into believing the OEM amp is connected.

There is still the issue regarding the output varying with volume depending on whether it's a DSP amp or other, but if this is true there's no need for any Speaker->LineOut converter. There would just be the DC bias to take care of. Not sure if that's better or not.

Could do with the experts offering their insight on this one.

There is no question that the factory radio unit will drive any aftermarket amplifier - it will do so with no issue. The only question in this case is whether or not the amplifier can handle the signal being provided to it. When there is no DSP amplifier attached to the factory radio it will provide a balanced +- 5V signal (note that this is the same as a 10V signal). This is a considerably higher voltage than most "low level" inputs are designed to accept, so you may need LOC's. If you amp also has "high level" or "speaker level" inputs, then you can just provide the signal directly to those instead of LOC's.

There is a question as to whether the factory radio module can drive a speaker load. I would say the answer is "Not for very long" since speaker impedance is so much lower than amplifier impedance (and therefore higher current which will fry the radio unit circuit). Having said that, I've never tried. And for clarity, I am referring specifically to the radio unit mounted in the trunk. You, apparently, have a headunit that drives speakers without an amp. By definition then, your headunit is capable of driving both amplifiers and speakers.

d-

Both the in-dash radio and the navigation board monitor radio are designed to drive the speakers directly. BMW uses the same radio in all three configurations of the audio system. That is probably the reason for the high voltage output. The radio is designed to serve a low impedance, high current load.

So there are no systems that have just a head unit without the additional radio box in the trunk?

That is interesting only because I helped someone (via phone) with an install who said he only had a head unit w/ no box in the back...

d-

At a high level, there are probably 6 major permutations of the audio system:

1) In-dash radio with no amplifier (6 speaker)
2) In-dash radio with standard HiFi amp (10 speaker)
3) In-dash radio with Top HiFi DSP amp (12 or 14 speaker)
4) Navigation with trunk radio and no amplifier (6 speaker)
5) Navigation with trunk radio and standard HiFi amp (10 speaker)
6) Navigation with trunk radio and Top HiFi DSP amp (12 or 14 speaker)

The first three perrmutations have the radio in the dash. It is the component with the tape or CD player. The last three permutations have the board monitor screen up front and the separate radio module in the trunk.

My hunch is that the install you helped with must have been system #1. That would have the standard radio with MID in the dash and no separate external amplifier. In that setup, the speakers are powered directly by the radio module. It is analogous to permutation #4, but in that case the radio module is in the trunk with no external amp, and the speakers feed directly to the trunk radio.

The other point to note about the above is that the same radio module part functions for scenarios #1, #2, #3. And, the same trunk radio supports scenarios #4, #5, and #6. The radio scans the I-Bus for which amp (if any is installed) and then decides out it should change its output.

Yes, the radio can drive a third party amp perfectly fine. Many folks have done it. However, you may need a line level converter. I am not sure of that, because I have not studied those posts as much.

You do not have DSP, so the radio's volume, fader, balance, tone, bass, etc. will all function like any ordinary radio. The only question to deal with is whether you need a line converter and whether the balanced output is an issue. I want to say that neither has been a big challenge for anyone who has done an aftermarket amp installation. In fact, I think most folks fed the radio outputs directly into the amps with no line converters, but I would search around some more for that info.

Ah, but does it really scan the I-Bus, or is it simply designed to automatically supply the correct output for either high or low impedence (i.e. amp or speakers)?

This is relevent as in my situation (no amp) the radio powers the speakers directly, but if it is connected to an amp instead, does the level drop to what could be called line level (ok, with a 5V bias) or will it still be trying to drive speakers, which will surely fry an amp with line level only inputs?

That is terrific info - I greatly appreciate it :)

d-

Yes, it really scans the IBus. When attached to a DSP amp the radio puts out a constant volume signal. You must reset the entire audio system to change it to variable outputs.

Electrical outputs are designed to handle a maximum amperage / minimum impedance. For the most part, systems can easily handle lower amp/higher impedance circuits. In this case, a system designed for speakers (high amp/low impedance) will easily drive an amp (low amp/high impendance). There is no concern of the system accidentally sending a high amperage signal to the amplifier because the amplifier determines what it receives. In other words, because the amp is high impedance, it will receive a low amperage signal.

The long and short of it is that you need only concern yourself with whether the amplifier can handle a 10V input signal (balanced 5V signal is 2x5V = 10V total peak). If it can, then don't worry about it.

Doug

Doug, I see what you're saying, but in that case any amp would be able to handle speaker level inputs and that cannot be true otherwise there'd be no need for high level (speaker) -> line out converters.

Let's forget the 5v bias of this BMW system, it is certainly not true that a line level signal can drive speakers and although far from being an electronics expert, it is my experience that indeed you should not send the speaker level ouput of one amp straight into the line level input of another.

I'm not being trying to be argumentative about this, I just want to be able to understand, partly as I want to feed the output of my radio module into my Nakamichi amps (line level input only) and partly just because I always need to understand with what I am dealing as I am then better able to figure out any variations I may need and/or fix any problem that arise subsequently.

Some facts would help me here. A traditional line level signal would be about 2v, with some system up to about 4v (IIRC Sony started doing this with their ICE), but what would typically be the equivalent at the speaker?

I don't think you quite followed me :)

You can't - it is the critical factor in what you are trying to do

Let me answer your last couple questions first and then you can read the long long long answer :)

1. Consumer Line Level Inputs traditionally meant 100mV - 1V, but this has been blurred recently as you noted.
2. Read the diatribe and I'll answer you at the end...

Okey Dokey - let's start with some basics :) And remember, you asked to learn, not just be given an answer!

First: Power = Amperage * Voltage, also represented as P = I * V
Second: Voltage = Amperage * Resistance, or V = I * R

Therefore: Power = Amperage^2 * Resistance

The critical point of this if resistance goes down, then amperage goes up to maintain the same power. Why does this matter? Because electronic components are rated to handle a given amount of power, and typically a given maximum amperage. If you exceed this amperage (or power), bad things happen.

Now, let's talk amplifiers. Amplifier is a general term used to describe any device that makes a signal greater. Therefore, in general terms, all headunits have an amplifier in them. In each case, that amplifier was designed to produce a given amount of Power when presented with a given Resistance.

Think of the power amplifier you'd like to add to your system - it probably produces X watts into 4ohm, 2*X watts into 2 ohms, and likely 4*X watts bridged into 4 ohms. That ohm rating is determined by the speakers you hook up to the system, but the extra Power doesn't just magically appear - it requires additional Amperage to run through all of the components of the power amplifier. Therefore, even though the amplifier can produce X watts into 4 ohms (and the associated amperage, I), the designers must use internal components that can handle 4*X watts, and consequently 4*I amps. Still with me?

Ok, so back to your head unit. There are really only 2 types of load a head unit will ever be presented with: speakers (as in your case) or the input stage of an amplifier. Speakers, as we've already discussed, tend to be in the 4ohm range (8 ohm for home audio). The input stage of an amplifier, however, is closer to 1,000,000 ohms. Why is this the case? Recall the above equation: V = I*R. If the designers are trying to produce a 10V input to an amplifier input stage, then we can quickly see that I = 10V / 1,000,000 Ohms, or a very very very small amount of current. Conversely, if the same radio were being designed to drive speakers the components would need to be able to handle I = 10V / 4 = 2.5 amps. This enormous difference in build requirements is why a head unit that is capable of driving speakers to 10V (and therefore handling 2.5 amps) can also drive the input stage of an amplifier with no issue, but the reverse is not true.

Note that in ALL cases, the amperage flowing through the head unit amplifier stage, and thus through the lines to the downstream component (whether amplifier or speaker) is determine by the downstream component. Hook up a speaker and get high amperage; hook up an amplifier and get low amperage.

As if that weren't complicated enough, there is the issue that BMW chose to use balanced inputs. In a "regular" RCA signal, the tip of the RCA jack carries a signal and the ring of the RCA jack is a reference ground (meaning: no signal). In balanced inputs, however, both the ring and the jacket carry signal, but the signs are opposite. So, when someone says the BMW radios produce a 5V balanced signal, they actually mean that the tip carries a 5V signal and the ring carries a -5V signal. Since amplifiers take the difference between the tip and ring, this means that a 5V balanced signal is actually a 5V - (-5V) = 10V signal!

Since we know your head unit is capable of driving speakers directly, we also know that it is capable of driving an amplifier input stage. What we need to ensure, therefore, is that the amplifier input stage is capable of accepting 5V balanced inputs.

This is why Line Output Converters exist - they are little more than a reducing transformer than takes the higher voltage signal and steps it down to a lower voltage signal that your amplifier input stage can handle.

I hope this all makes sense, but if not, ask away and I'll try to clarify...

btw, the answer to question #2 is that the question really doesn't make sense. Because line level outputs are designed to drive a huge resistance, you can't really say what the voltage would be if they drove a speaker. If you make the simplifying assumption that we won't exceed the maximum amperage design spec of the head unit, then using V = I*R, where I is basically 0, we find that V is also basically 0.

d-

Wow, excellent explanation of the situation (and general audio/electrical physics too). I just had a minor question as an aside. I may purchase an amp capable of 10V line-level inputs (got some Kickers in mind) to power a new subwoofer. After I have located the signal wires from the radio headunit going into the factory amplifier, what is the best way to tap them so that the signal is split to both amps? The balanced 5V seems like it would need a special wire harness or something to maintain that +/- charge separation.

Thanks in advance for the help!

I try :) Glad you like it since it took a little while to write up!

Balanced signals don't require any special wire or harness - it is still a 2 wire RCA, it is just that both wires carry a signal. Regular RCA's maintain separation just fine.

Anyway, to answer your question:
Some amplifiers can accept 10V inputs into their RCA jacks, others accept them into speaker terminals. Assuming the amp you are looking at accepts them into the RCA jacks, then I would simply take the speaker wires from your head unit and wire them into RCA pairs. In other words, I would take Front Left + to the tip of one RCA and Front Left - to the corresponding Ring. Do the same with FR, RL, and RR. Once you have male connectors on each speaker wire you can then get a Y cable to with 1 female end (to mate to your newly wired male end) and 2 male ends. Run those to the 2 amps.

Alternatively, simply wire up RCA's and run them directly to your 4 channel amp and then use the passthrough RCA jacks on the amp to run to a subwoofer amp.

Doug

Just realized I may have misunderstood your question. If you were asking how do you take 4 channels of audio and run it into an amplifier with only 2 channels of input then the answer is a bit different.

Typically you'll find that subwoofers are driven off of a front and a rear channel - so I would take the FL and the RR RCA's and run it to one amp, and the FR and RL RCA's and run them to the other amp. This way you are splitting the load between both subs regardless of fader setting.

If this still didn't answer your question then I need you to ask if differently :)

d-

I haven't ever actually dug into the rear panels and gotten to the amp yet. Is the connection from the head unit to the factory amp via RCA wires already, just perhaps without the male tips on the ends?

So if I wanted to keep the factory amp running my speakers as it is now, but tap into the signal to add a subwoofer amp, would I do the same thing but leave the one set of wires bare to be reinserted to the factory amp? The Kicker amps I have looked at accept speaker wire as high-level inputs, so could I simply tap into the wires and diverge them into two?

Sorry if this doesn't make sense, not sure how to word it.

And thanks again, it is very nice to have such a knowledgeable source on here!

No problem, I gotcha...

Your radio is attached to the amplifier via individual wires that are in harnesses. In other words, you'll find a harness of wires attached to the radio - some of those wires go to the amplifier where they are in another harness.

So... since you are looking to add a sub but keep your existing amplifier you should "tap" into the existing wires and run those directly to the amplifier speaker level inputs.

There is no "good" way to tap the wires, but the best available alternative is probably something called Scotch-loks Tap Connectors. You simply position one of these over the wire you want to tap into and then add your new wire to it before crimping.

You'll want to tap into the Front Left +/- and also the Right Rear +/- (it doesn't matter, but you want a Front and Rear and a Left and Right). Those 4 wires will then run to the speaker level inputs on your amplifier.

d-

Thanks for the explanation. Just to clarify, I am a science graduate (although not in electronics) and have worked in the automotive industry (ran Honda's Technical Training Schools for some years) and more recently in IT (database development). So yes, you could say I'm a technical kinda guy and Ohms Law etc is not exactly unfamiliar. However, the principles of electronic design are beyond my experience, hence my need for explanation.

My requirements will be for the outputs of the BMW radio module to be fed into an AudioControl 6XS which will handle active crossover duties and pass the signal onto the Nakamichi amps which have an input sensitivity of 0.2 - 0.8V, but it seems to me that it's the 6XS that needs to be able to cope with BMW's balanced signals, yes?

In any case, I have determined that Genesis' (the UK amp people) Hi Level converter is happy to accept the BMW 5V balanced signal and will output a single ended signal suitable for the input of any amp. Problem solved :thumbup:

Thank you all for your input.

You are correct - the Audiocontrol needs to be able to accept the BMW signal. My quick read of the owners manual didn't give a spec as to whether it can or not. What is did reveal, is that the 6XS outputs a variable high voltage signal (9V RMS). I'm pretty sure you won't be able to feed the 6XS output directly to your Naks since your Nak only accepts <1V signals.

I bring this up just to make sure you have enough LOC's - you may need them both before AND after the 6XS ...

Also, note that an LOC is NOT the same as a balanced -> unbalanced converter (balun), so make sure you ask them specifically. An LOC is a simple tranformer while a balun does exactly what it says...

d-

Thanks a million Mr Baker. I am now looking forward to jumping right in on this pretty straightforward job with all of the detailed info you have supplied. You have been a huge help!

Always happy to help - let me know if you have any more questions!

d-

Hmm, I'll have to check out the 6XS further. Damn, thought I had it all sussed :banghead:

The Genesis Hi Level converter can specifically accept the 5v balanced signal, it is designed to be able to do this. The Genesis designer told me this himself - they are a great company, really helpful.

I'm interested in this Genesis product - do you have a link?

d-

The unit I mentioned is the S3HI4 (4 channel high level converter, part of the Series III range). I was intending to use their amps, but to be honest cannot afford not to use what I already have, what with all the other stuff I want to get sorted on the X5. I will be buying an S3HI4 though. I could get another if you want and ship it to you if that would help?

Their website is http://www.genesiscaraudio.net/, but not great to be honest, although they are aware of this and in the process of sorting it out - as a web designer I offered to help, but they have someone already in place:-( Unfortunately, the S3HI4 is not mentioned at all, only their amps and speakers.

The 6XS output has level adjustment and I'm sure can be controlled to be compatible with my amps, but I'm waiting on a response from AudioControl to confirm.

What I'd really like to see are some specs on the S3HI4 - I looked on their site, but as you said, it isn't there. If they've got some and it matches what I need then yes, I'd probably be interested!

d-

D-
If I end up with an amp that doesn't have line level inputs, what is your favorite/best-all-around LOC for BMWs?

Any amp you buy will have line level inputs, but it may not have speaker level inputs :)

You are only installing a sub. Given that, you don't really have any concern about frequency response etc, so you should get whatever you can find locally. If you have a Circuit City, Best Buy, or Radio Shack they all carry them and they will all be adequate for your needs. Crutchfield also sells them.

If you were installing an SQ competition system I might point you toward a Soundgate or something a bit higher end, but frankly, you'd be wasting your money.

d-

I am torn between two options:
1.) Getting a kicker amp (zx350.2 which should fit in the stock sub location) with speaker-level inputs and just using it to run my sub (Image Dynamics IDQ12 in 1cuft sealed). Then I would probably replace the front tweeters and woofers with something that could run on stock power.

2.) I have found a few small footprint 4 channel amps (ie Alpine PDX series) that I considered using to power some front speakers and then use the other 2 channels for the sub. Unfortunately, all of the amps that are small enough to be hidden in the BMW only accept RCA inputs. I assume here you would recommend a higher quality loc?

I am definitely not an audiophile, but I enjoy a nice sound and can tell that I dont get that from my current nonDSP system. My old vehicle was similar to option 2, I had a 4x100 amp running Boston Rally 6.5 components up front and a 10 sealed in back. Very good sound in a pickup truck.

I am considering the new Phoenix Gold RSD 6" components as they should fit the roughly 6" woofer opening, but I don't know about the tweeters or if they would sound good w/o some extra amp power.

If the stock stereo is loud enough for you, then alt 1 will work fine. In my case, I couldn't hear the stereo with the windows down, so it was bye-bye DSP.

Since I don't know what vehicle you have I can't really comment on the stock space or what will fit. However, the stock location for the E39 5 series is fairly small, and I managed to fit a 4 channel in with at least a smidge to spare.

Of the current offerings I found few that would fit - they are all too long. Thus I decided to go "old school". There is an added benefit that old amps were rated at 12V (not 14.4V) which means the ratings are typically quite low compared to todays. For example, mine is rated 4x25W, but if you find the 14.4V ratings it is actually 4x65W. I chose an MTX Blue Thunder (which was top of the line at the time) and couldn't be happier.

In your case, this would allow you to run 2x65W + 1x250W.

Oh, and it has the added benefit of accepting balanced inputs up to 8V through the RCA's, which means no LOC.

If, as you said, you do go with one of the new Class D amps then I still don't think it will matter which LOC's you use. If you are an audiophile (I know, you said you aren't) then you'll probably complain about the slew rates of Class D amps. If you aren't, then you won't be able to tell the difference in sound between a $200 and a $20 LOC.

Just my thoughts :)

d-

I looked all over your install blog. Very detailed, I am glad that you really blazed the trail on this project. I think that I may start off by installing the component speakers. If this cleans up the sound enough for me then I will stick with just amping the sub. Otherwise, I found this little guy that may be just the right size, can do 75x2 and 300x1, and accepts speaker level inputs up to 26V! Am I reading this correctly?
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pi...Manual0122.pdf

You indeed are reading that correctly - it can produce 75x2 + 300x1 and will accept the inputs from the BMW system through the speaker level inputs with absolutely no issue.

Note that in this case "speaker level inputs" are still provided via the RCA jacks, you just slide a switch to tell it you are feeding speaker level instead of line level inputs. It also does not require a remote turn on lead...

d-

Try emailing them on [email protected], you will probably be able to get the info you want.

I have just heard from AudioControl that the 6XS (my active crossover) CAN accept the +5/-5 balanced feed from the BMW radio module, so I don't need any LOC there at all, which is good news. Unfortunately, as you pointed out, the 6XS output will be a bit high for the Nakamichi amps. Although the 6XS does have output level controls, there is a real danger of these being accidentally set too high. Is there a simple way to attenuate/limit the 6XS outputs without needing multiple LOCs? Or will I just have to rely on maintaining the correct adjustement?

What would happen to the Nakamichi amps if their input signal was too high?

No way to limit the output that I am aware of without LOC's. But, there are 4-channel LOC's, so that seems like it shouldn't be too much of an issue.

Are you set on the 6XS? If not, I'd look for another active crossover that meets the needs of your Nak...

If you send a signal that is too high to the Nak you will burn out the input stage, which is to say that you will be sending it in for expensive repairs.

d-

Just to confirm a few things. I am wanting to upgrade the audio in my X5 also. I'm i right in thinking i can connect directly into my Phoenix Gold Outlaw amplifier as it will accept upto 9 volt input. Thus no need for any converters. Also would i be right in thinking there is no sub out availiable on a non dsp system. I have the nav but no sub or dsp.:confused:

Pin
1 Front left +
8 Front left -
2 Front right +
11 Front right -

5 remote turn on for amp.

You haven't provided enough information to adequately confirm anything.

Are you intending to add just a subwoofer amplifier after the existing amp or a 4 channel & sub amp after the radio?

As a side note, you really should start a new thread since your questions are only loosely related to the topic here.

d-

I will be upgrading the front end and adding a sub but will only be using the front end signal for both.( using onboard x-overs) .
The car is a 2001 4.4 sport with sat nav but no dsp or sub, so i gather no amp.
I didn't want to start a new tread as most of the information is here and i do think it may answer some other peoples questions.

There are folks more knowledgeable than I as it relates to which stereo comes with which vehicles (Brian comes to mind!), but I believe that Sat Nav always includes an amplifier.

Before I go off half-cocked, what do you have in the cockpit of your vehicle? Is it just a bord-monitor or do you also have a mid or other information display in addition to the bord-monitor?

d-

You may have an amp, so you will have to explore the boot to check it out. There were two versions of the non-DSP audio system. The "HiFi" system had a basic 10 channel amp. The standard stereo system was powered directly from the radio module. If you are just adding a sub, then it may not matter-- just tap an audio signal coming out of the radio module, and you should be set.

If you want to add an amp for the main speakers, then you will have to confirm whether or not you have a HiFi amp to remove first. It is located in the compartment with the CD changer and nav computer.

I do not have an amp in that panel at guess it would be below the cd changer. :confused:

That is where the amp would be, so you have the standard stereo audio system.

So my other post regarding pin numbers would be correct.:thumbup:

I will be starting a tread for other questions.
Thank you very much for your help.