Is "Hot Fuel" Costing Us More At The Pump?

[Quicksilver]

Hot fuel physics boils down to this. When temperatures rise, gasoline expands, so on hotter days, you're getting less useable fuel from a gallon of gas.

SAN JOSE, Calif., Jul. 5, 2007 (KGO) - The newest controversy over gasoline has to do with something called "hot fuel loss." Consumer activists are suing, saying gas is more expensive on hot summer days. Why? Because hot weather makes gas expand, so we get less in our tanks, but we're charged the same. Big oil says it's not fraud.

Fraud or not, Shell oil is posting notices on their pumps regarding the issue.


http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?sec...cal&id=5454165

[Ishniknork]

Pardon me for comming down so hard on this but it is a bit of an old topic. One I've not really expressed my opinion on in a public forum before.

To start, why doesn't anyone ever talk about "Cold Fuel" gain? Because it's a positive effect of temperature on gasoline? Nobody ever mentions that . The physics work both ways. When it's cold the gas contracts and you get more for your money.

I suppose if you live in an area where it's hot all the time, you lose more than others and might desreve some compensation. But then again cold weather requires longer warm-up periods that use more fuel, eating at the gains one might get from buying "cold" gas.

Hmmm..... seems like a "6 to 1, Half-a-Dozen to the Other" situation to me. Just another press hype to disrupt the consumer and get headlines. You don't hear the oil companies griping about their losses on "Cold" fuel sales during the winter months. The fact is that gasoline is pumped by volume at an averaged temperature.

Quote from the article:
"The stickers explain fuel is sold by the gallon based on a 60-degree temperature and temperature variations could affect fuel efficiency. But the oil industry as a whole is questioning the data and weather consumers are really being 'ripped off.'"

(Uh, that's "whether", dumba** "...weather consumers are really being ripped off...." Who edited this POS article anyway?)

Oh well, back to the point...

Hmmm... seems like a "6-to-1, half -a-dozen to the other" situation to me. Just another press hype to disrupt the consumer and get headlines. You don't hear the oil companies griping about losses on "cold" fuel sales, do you? If that averaged temperature were based on 32 degrees I might be inclined to agree with this absurdity.

One other point... The tanks that hold the fuel are underground. Seems I heard somewhere that the temperature at 6-8 feet underground is about 58 degrees. (If I'm wrong on this please correct me, anybody) Have any of the reporters on this topic ever measured the temperature of the gas comming out of the pump to verify these accusations of "Hot Fuel"? I dare say "NO".

OK, I've finished with my little rant. Thanks for listening, have a nice day

[Quicksilver]

Your correct. It is an old topic. However it keeps poppin up because the oil companies know that somone is watching their every move. If indeed this is a valid issue then certinally the oil companies would prefer people not know about it

This statement, it makes you wonder weather the reports are credible.

" At least one refiner, Tosoro, is putting warning decals on its gas station pumps. You'll find them at a variety of stations including USA and some Shell outlets.

The stickers explain fuel is sold by the gallon based on a 60-degree temperature and temperature variations could affect fuel efficiency. But the oil industry as a whole is questioning the data and weather consumers are really being 'ripped off.'"

In my opinion if the report is credible then Joe consumer deserves every edge he can get regarding fuel prices and distribution.

[Ishniknork]

Say QS, I've edited my reply, to say the least

It's not that I'm trying to protect the oil companies or anything, I'd love to pay less for a gallon of gas, but I don't think they are "ripping us off" with this hot fuel press hype.

And that sticker thing is just a way to CYA, just in case.

[Quicksilver]

You may be right but it is interesting that one article says

" The issue has driven trial lawyers to fire off as many as 20 federal lawsuits accusing retailers of using simple physics to take advantage of consumers. Challenges have been filed in Alabama, Arkansas, California, Florida, Kansas, Missouri and New Jersey, among other states and some are seeking class-action status.

The latest lawsuit, filed last week in federal district court in Georgia, claims that distributors have been "unjustly enriched" by tens of millions of dollars. They did so by paying taxes on the fuel based on the colder industry standard but pocketing the taxes collected from customers when the temperature soars, it alleged.

"I don't believe gas retailers should collect more in purported taxes than they pay the government," said Bryan Vroon, one of the attorneys in the Georgia suit. "Gas prices are high enough without the over-collection of taxes."

Additionally the article goes on to state that " In frigid Canada, where cold temperatures were giving consumers an edge, many gas stations voluntarily backed a program to add pumps that automatically adjust volumes based on temperature.

During the energy crisis in the 1970s, tropical Hawaii decided to set a base fuel temperature of 80 degrees (26.67 Celsius), meaning that consumers there get more bang for their buck because retailers now dispense 234 cubic inches of gas per gallon rather than 231.

The federal government is considering a similar change as well. The National Conference on Weights and Measures is to vote in July on whether to allow temperature regulation by retailers.?

Nothing but media hype? Perhaps but IMHO it seems to point to a legitimate concern.

[JCL]

Originally Posted by Ishniknork

One other point... The tanks that hold the fuel are underground. Seems I heard somewhere that the temperature at 6-8 feet underground is about 58 degrees. (If I'm wrong on this please correct me, anybody) Have any of the reporters on this topic ever measured the temperature of the gas comming out of the pump to verify these accusations of "Hot Fuel"? I dare say "NO".

This is exactly why the whole issue is a non-issue. Tanks are in fact deeper than 6-8 feet in many cases, meaning that there is even less variation.

I worked in a family gas station for many years; we also ran a fuel oil business and trucked our own fuel from the transfer station/refinery. We temperature-corrected at the refinery at time of loading, but did not do so at the consumer pump. Why? Because the temperature 15 feet underground didn't vary significantly. Swings and roundabouts, the consumer won as much as he lost. There was also a sticker prominently displayed on the pump to note the standard temperature the pumps were calibrated to.

Many years back I also ran fuel consumption tests on large industrial diesel engines, typically 4500 hp, often used in power stations for mines or in remote areas. I was responsible for certifying the test results for the client witness tests. We temperature corrected to 25C, as per the ISO and SAE standards, and we also corrected to a standard Lower Heating Value (calorific content) based on the results of a sample fuel test using a bomb calorimeter. Technically interesting, but irrelevant in the real world as the correction factors were usually in the second or third decimal place. This is important if you are buying a 20 mW power station with a 15 year useful life and an 80% load factor, but nonsense in terms of protecting the consumer from gasoline companies.

Next, someone should sue the weatherman. They could be charged with abuse of both humidity and temperature, as both will affect real engine power. Maybe even sue the land surveyors, as they are surely responsible for high altitude and the resultant power reductions in internal combustion engines.

[rebound]

What's really interesting is that we had this exact discussion 3-4 months ago:

Link

[Ishniknork]

Originally Posted by rebound

What's really interesting is that we had this exact discussion 3-4 months ago:

Link

Yeah, I remember, but I don't think I chimed in on that one. The article QS posted got to me this time

Originally Posted by Quicksilver

Additionally the article goes on to state that " In frigid Canada, where cold temperatures were giving consumers an edge, many gas stations voluntarily backed a program to add pumps that automatically adjust volumes based on temperature.

During the energy crisis in the 1970s, tropical Hawaii decided to set a base fuel temperature of 80 degrees (26.67 Celsius), meaning that consumers there get more bang for their buck because retailers now dispense 234 cubic inches of gas per gallon rather than 231.

I could live with that. Nothing wrong with more accurate pumps! With gas prices rising all the time more accurate dispensing seems only reasonable. Even just changing the base temperature like Hawaii did would be an improvement.

Originally Posted by JCL

Next, someone should sue the weatherman. They could be charged with abuse of both humidity and temperature, as both will affect real engine power. Maybe even sue the land surveyors, as they are surely responsible for high altitude and the resultant power reductions in internal combustion engines.

Damn, the reporter was right... the weather consumers are being ripped off!!!

Thanks for the backup on the underground tank temps JCL. I'm very tempted to check the temperature of pump gas on a hot, Texas afternoon. Just to see for myself. It's a simple experiment and just might provide some answers to this query.

All I have to do is wait for all this rain to stop so it'll get HOT around here...

[JCL]

Originally Posted by rebound

What's really interesting is that we had this exact discussion 3-4 months ago:

Link

Yes, but it degenerated into a discussion of how far people drove to work, and whether mass transit was an answer