Home Forums Articles How To's FAQ Register
Go Back   Xoutpost.com > Off-topic > The Lounge
Fluid Motor Union
User Name
Password
Member List Premier Membership Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Xoutpost server transfer and maintenance is occurring....
Xoutpost is currently undergoing a planned server migration.... stay tuned for new developments.... sincerely, the management


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-19-2014, 10:47 AM
motordavid's Avatar
RetiredBum & Semi-RenaissanceMan
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Mtns of Western NC, & SW FLA
Posts: 16,816
motordavid will become famous soon enoughmotordavid will become famous soon enough
BMW 535d Review...

From Sat's WSJ...the usual interesting review written by Dan Neil.

http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/i...0813113948.jpg


BMW 535d: This Eco Car Is No Diesel in Distress

BMW's turbocharged diesel sedan proves to be as punchy and free-revving as a gas-powered car

By Dan Neil

Aug. 15, 2014
BMW 535d Dan Neil/The Wall Street Journal

NOT THE DIESEL thing again.

Believe me, if I could, I would just avoid even mentioning the fact that the BMW 535d burns diesel fuel instead of premium gasoline. Why? Because you don't get the crazy email I get, OK? Diesel advocates, the true believers, scare me. They have an agenda and dwell in tunnels between gas stations.

No, please! I'm not interested in your spreadsheet on the "diesel-payback period," the time it takes to recoup in fuel savings the additional cost of a diesel powertrain. Thank you for the picture of your uncle's million-mile 1983 Mercedes-Benz diesel S-class. Think of all the traffic he held up.

For the benefit of regular folks, let me translate the diesel weirdos' argument: Diesel engines offer higher mileage, more torque and lower greenhouse emissions. Diesel engines are generally more durable than gas engines, and, consequently, diesel vehicles hold residual value better. And then there's modern diesels' graceful, unstrained athleticism, as keenly exemplified in a turbocharged compression-ignition showboat like our test car, the 2014 BMW 535d xDrive sedan.

Diesel. Yeah. And if you ever want to read a heartbreaking story of smart, sad guy, seek out Rudolf Diesel's biography. Sheesh.

It's been seven years since low-sulfur diesel fuel (a key enabler of clean diesel) became widely available in the U.S. Before that, diesel passenger cars had become functionally extinct, unable to comply with California's air-quality standards on particulate and nitrous-oxide emissions.

Even with low-sulfur fuel, U.S.-market diesel passenger cars require advanced particulate traps and often, in the case of larger engines, post-combustion exhaust treatment, typically using a urea-based fluid called AdBlue. This fluid is stored onboard and replenished at service intervals (though Mazda and Honda both sell diesels clean enough to forego post-combustion treatment.)

These systems constitute diesel's upfront cost to the consumer, the diesel premium. As compared with a nearly identical, gas-powered BMW 535i xDrive sedan, the 535d costs an additional $1,500 ($60,100), a roughly 2.6% premium over the gas model. It's not a question of whether your operating costs will ultimately be lower—they will—but exactly when those lines will cross.

“ Diesel advocates, the true believers, scare me. They dwell in tunnels between gas stations. ”

Battery-based hybrid systems also improve net vehicle efficiency, and they also cost extra. But diesel advocates note—usually at dinner, when you can't get away—that diesel is actually a more economical route to higher efficiency than battery hybrid.

Fuel cost? Well, that's interesting. While it is true that a gallon of diesel costs around 35 cents more than regular unleaded, most cars in the 535d's bracket burn premium unleaded, which is typically on par with diesel, price-wise.

See, diesel freakazoids? Are you happy now? It's boring.

An enduring mystery to me is why Americans don't care. Diesel market penetration continues to bump along the bottom in the U.S., at just over 3% in 2013. And this year there is a Noah's Ark of awesome diesels arriving from Germany. Lots of Audis and BMWs with four or more seats can be had with a diesel-engine offering. You know, lovey, the boys at the lodge will just be hatin' it!

BMW of North America

Base price: $58,900

Price, as tested: $68,750

Powertrain: Turbodiesel 3.0-liter DOHC, 34-valve inline six with variable-geometry turbocharger; eight-speed automatic transmission with manual-shift function and sport mode; full-time-all-wheel drive

Horsepower/torque: 255 hp at 4,000 rpm; 413 lb.-ft at 1,500 rpm

Length/weight: 193.4 inches/4,255 pounds

Wheelbase: 116.9 inches

0-60 mph: 5.7 seconds

EPA fuel economy: 26/37/30 mpg, city/highway/combined

Trunk capacity: 18.4 cubic feet

As for durability, can I share something with you? I've been to Le Mans eight times. Seven times, a diesel-powered Audi prototype has won (11 victories overall). Ninety-nine-point-nine % of all motorsports marketing is horsefeathers, but I've never seen a diesel race-engine break. I've seen the turbochargers melt and have to be replaced—in the middle of the night, an unbelievable spectacle—but I've never seen an Audi diesel race-engine, as technicians say, soil the bed. That has to mean something, right?

Join me in a thought experiment: We are choosing between two cars. On the one hand, the BMW 535i xDrive sedan ($57,650 MSRP), with a 3-liter, 300-hp, inline turbo-gasoline engine returning 29 miles per gallon nominal on the highway. And, remember, we're talking about a BMW petrol inline six, so hugely refined, ridiculously smooth, like, where do you put the bobbin?

On the other hand: the very same car but with a 3.0-liter turbodiesel putting out 255 hp and getting 38 mpg on the highway ($58,900). This is no run-of-the-mill smudge pot, either. The all-aluminum 24-valve DOHC inline six breathes by way of a variable-geometry turbocharger and common-rail direct injection. The diesel also has an absurd advantage in torque: 413 lb-ft. at 1,500 rpm, as compared with the gasser's 300 torques.

Like the 535i, the diesel puts the power down via an eight-speed automatic transmission, the control software for which is really responsible for making this low-revving turbodiesel behave like any other BMW six.

On the street the 535d's acceleration is a just a touch more deliberate (5.8 seconds as compared with the gas-burners 5.5), but once under way, the turbodiesel's burly athleticism cannot be denied. Three taps of the rev limiter and the 535d is at autobahn speeds, warmly warbling and tracking like a laser beam. Again, part of what is supposed to make the U.S. car market unique is its greater average distances driven, and long-distance efficiency is what diesels do best. So why so little love?

Now, in our thought experiment, everything else between our BMWs is the same. The same strength in cabin materials, the same sober richness of design, the same rock-solid feel. Same car. At the upper end of the punch list, these cars can get appealingly rowdy, with optional integral active steering (four-wheel steering) and lightweight 19-inch wheels, and a vast palette of colors and trim packages to make your car like Rocco's Hideaway.

Which one? It's a trick question. There really is no difference, except that, in the long run, the diesel is cheaper to own. Indeed, that has been the whole point of BMW's diesel powertrain program: to make diesel transparent to driver/owners long accustomed to gasoline powertrains and BMW's classic sporting character.

In that, the BMW 535d has succeeded wildly, with a diesel power plant (peak horsepower at 4,000 rpm) that is as punchy and free-revving as a gasoline engine, quiet and nearly free of shake, and just flat out hossy and powerful any time it's asked.

With the 3.0-liter's ultraprecise direct fuel injection and other advanced diesel trickery, four out of five blindfolded car salesmen couldn't tell the difference.

And compared with the dragon's butthole of your average late '70s diesel, the 535d's exhaust is minty fresh.

Well, now you know. You're well armed to go to the dealership. Diesel, man.

Tell 'em Rudolf sent you.

BMW 535d: This Eco Car Is No Diesel in Distress - WSJ
__________________
Ol'UncleMotor
From the Home Base of Pro Bono Punditry
and 50 Cent Opins...

Our Mtn Scenes, Car Pics, and Road Trip Pics on Flickr:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/4527537...7627297418250/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/4527537...7627332480833/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/45275375@N00/

My X Page




Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links

  #2  
Old 08-19-2014, 11:39 AM
Ricky Bobby's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 9,344
Ricky Bobby will become famous soon enough
This is what boggles my mind as well, why so little, are we really that stupid to be buying up Hybrids like no tomorrow when you can get better mileage in a cleaner more eco-friendly clean diesel, and most of the time more powerful and stylish as well?:

"An enduring mystery to me is why Americans don't care. Diesel market penetration continues to bump along the bottom in the U.S., at just over 3% in 2013"

Give me a Touareg TDI, a Golf TDI, X5 35d, 328 or 535d any day.

My only problem with the Bimmer diesels is that you CANT GET A FRIGGIN 6MT! If you could, I just may get rid of my X for one...


But there is no mistaking that mileage, diesel mileage is always underrated by the EPA (wonder why? I blame tons of hybrid technology lobbyists in DC), so that 30 mpg combined figure is probably more like 32-33.

The 328d advertises 45 mpg. COMBINED. Amazing and I hope the diesel trend continues to rise.
__________________
2018 Ram 2500 6.7L Cummins 68RFE
19k miles -Bright White/Black - Big Horn Sport - Crew Cab Short Bed
2013 X5 35D (CEO's) - Born on 5/17/2013 -
82k miles - Alpine White/Cinnamon Brown/Premium Pkg, Sport Activity/Premium Pkg and Sound/20" Style 214/Running Boards

Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-19-2014, 05:07 PM
Quicksilver's Avatar
Premier Member and retired relic
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: NORCAL
Posts: 17,204
Quicksilver will become famous soon enoughQuicksilver will become famous soon enough
I've tried more than a few times to get the folks round these parts to discuss
this subject. But to no avail. Not a lot of interest and I don't know why.
Maybe it's the common myths that the engine clatters and can't find fuel both
of which are false.

The only thing keeping me away so far is the $71,000 price tag.
__________________
"What you hear in a great jazz band is the sound of democracy. “The jazz band works best when participation is shaped by intelligent communication.”
Harmony happens whenever different parts get to form a whole by means of congruity, concord, symetry, consistency, conformity, correspondence, agreement, accord, unity, consonance…….
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-20-2014, 12:31 PM
Ricky Bobby's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 9,344
Ricky Bobby will become famous soon enough
It is so weird QS


And people praise Prius/Tesla/Hybrid technology like its the best thing since Henry Ford. Is it because the reality tv crowd/celebrities love them?

I bet if Kim Kartrashian was driving a 535d they would be selling in droves, but the yuppie SF crowd doesn't "accept" clean diesel as better than their beloved hybrids.

Sad, really.
__________________
2018 Ram 2500 6.7L Cummins 68RFE
19k miles -Bright White/Black - Big Horn Sport - Crew Cab Short Bed
2013 X5 35D (CEO's) - Born on 5/17/2013 -
82k miles - Alpine White/Cinnamon Brown/Premium Pkg, Sport Activity/Premium Pkg and Sound/20" Style 214/Running Boards

Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-20-2014, 09:22 PM
FSETH's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Marietta, GA
Posts: 5,302
FSETH is on a distinguished road
BMW 535d Review...

I would buy a diesel over a hybrid, but I would get a 535i over a 535d without hesitation. We've had an X5 35d for nearly two years and its been nice, but there are definitely cons in diesel ownership.

Examples are:
Dirtier pumps
Not every station has diesel
Some stations only have one or two diesel pumps and they are usually occupied by gas cars
Not all pumps have the correct diameter diesel nozzles, which means the security flap in our X5 won't open
Oil changes are more expensive and require refilling the dif fluid ($200+ even at an indy)
Engine clatter
Really low redline
Different power delivery as the engine doesn't like to rev
Typically higher initial purchase price

I am ok with the clatter, low revving nature, etc. in an SUV, but its not ideal for a car, especially a performance car, IMO. That's why I would choose the 535i over the d. Plus, with typical mileage, it really does take years to recoup the initial costs in fuel savings.

That said, I do like the torque and at the time, the 35d got much, much better MPG than the 3.0i or 4.8i. Thats just not the case with the 535d/535i.

In reality, I wouldn't buy a current 5 series with any engine. The car has lost it's edge and is more of a 7 series than a fiver. It's chassis is based on the 7 and that hurts it dynamically. Plus, the steering feel isn't great anymore. While the e60 was winning comparisons even in its last year of production, the f10 started losing them as soon as it was introduced.
__________________
Profeshenal spellar

Last edited by FSETH; 08-21-2014 at 08:19 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-21-2014, 09:16 AM
Ricky Bobby's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 9,344
Ricky Bobby will become famous soon enough
^^ All good points, although controversial when it first came out I prefer the look of the E60 over the F10, every time I see an F10 now I always do a double take from the front "is that a 7 series?"

When it comes to F10, yes the 35i and 35d are close in mileage, but when comparing something like the E70 or newer X5, or most of the SUV's equipped with diesel models (Touareg, Q7, etc) the diesel mpg advantage is really prevalent and the performance is just as good as the gas equivalent, albeit usually torquier whereas the gas version has more hp.
__________________
2018 Ram 2500 6.7L Cummins 68RFE
19k miles -Bright White/Black - Big Horn Sport - Crew Cab Short Bed
2013 X5 35D (CEO's) - Born on 5/17/2013 -
82k miles - Alpine White/Cinnamon Brown/Premium Pkg, Sport Activity/Premium Pkg and Sound/20" Style 214/Running Boards

Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-21-2014, 10:33 AM
FSETH's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Marietta, GA
Posts: 5,302
FSETH is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Bobby View Post

When it comes to F10, yes the 35i and 35d are close in mileage, but when comparing something like the E70 or newer X5, or most of the SUV's equipped with diesel models (Touareg, Q7, etc) the diesel mpg advantage is really prevalent and the performance is just as good as the gas equivalent, albeit usually torquier whereas the gas version has more hp.

You are absolutely right. Diesel makes much more sense in an SUV. High torque for towing, the low redline/revving nature of the engine isn't as big of a deal and it seems that typically the MPG advantage is much larger. Plus, the diesel clatter seems cooler/more acceptable in an SUV rather than a car.

When we bought our e70 a few years back, the only models in our price range were the 3.0i, 4.8i an 35d. Of those, the 35d got the best mileage by far an the pre-owned price was inline with the others, so it made the most sense to us.


Tapatalk
__________________
Profeshenal spellar
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-21-2014, 11:36 PM
AzNMpower32's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: WNC
Posts: 6,010
AzNMpower32 is on a distinguished road
I prefer diesel cars, as the price of diesel in my area is a bit lower than premium petrol. That, plus the greater torque, excellent overtaking capabilities, and eco-credentials make them winners in my book.

The problem is that Americans as a whole are creatures of habit and couldn't care to move forward with their car buying choices. Incremental changes- a bit more bling, bigger cars, and cash back incentives- are all that folks want in this country.
__________________
2014 Mazda 3 GT: Ø Consumption: (click for details)
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-22-2014, 12:39 AM
Quicksilver's Avatar
Premier Member and retired relic
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: NORCAL
Posts: 17,204
Quicksilver will become famous soon enoughQuicksilver will become famous soon enough
Could be, or perhaps we're being bamboozled by the media leading us to believe
that Americans as a whole are creatures of habit and don't want Diesels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AzNMpower32 View Post
I prefer diesel cars, as the price of diesel in my area is a bit lower than premium petrol. That, plus the greater torque, excellent overtaking capabilities, and eco-credentials make them winners in my book.

The problem is that Americans as a whole are creatures of habit and couldn't care to move forward with their car buying choices. Incremental changes- a bit more bling, bigger cars, and cash back incentives- are all that folks want in this country.
__________________
"What you hear in a great jazz band is the sound of democracy. “The jazz band works best when participation is shaped by intelligent communication.”
Harmony happens whenever different parts get to form a whole by means of congruity, concord, symetry, consistency, conformity, correspondence, agreement, accord, unity, consonance…….
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-22-2014, 01:43 AM
JCL's Avatar
JCL JCL is offline
Premier Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 11,853
JCL will become famous soon enoughJCL will become famous soon enough
I prefer gasoline engines, due to the driving experience. I like revs. And smooth quiet engines. Diesels have gotten much better, but they still are "pretty smooth for a diesel," not "as smooth as a gasoline engine." Now that we have readily available turbocharged direct injection gasoline engines, I can get high torque at low rpms as well. Once you are at that technology level, I find that the economy of a diesel is not much of a difference, and as we often have expensive diesel where I live (at least six months of the year, due to the seasonal home heating oil market), diesels don't have a pay back until the 100,000 km range. That is a long time to just get to break even. The used market figured it out as well here. Diesel X5s commanded a $4500 premium when new here several years ago (we never had government subsidies to promote diesels), and in the used market they are now not commanding a price premium, so they depreciated faster.

I have had two diesels, a Passat 1.9 red badge (A6 engine in the UK at the time) and a Landrover Discovery, and I drove many different company cars with diesels. It made sense in the UK due to the tax structure on diesel fuel. I also worked in the heavy duty diesel industry for 26 years, so I figured I probably ought to have a diesel.

We were thinking about a new X5 a while back, and we eventually decided to wait a year. But we drove one. We picked the colour and major options. Then we were discussing 35d vs 35i. My wife requested that we eliminate the diesel from the list, as she would be driving (and refueling) it as well. She remembered refuelling the Passat and Discovery. She checked local fuel availability. It is available, but not as readily available as gasoline. She just didn't want the hassle.

If I wanted a very fuel efficient car I would consider a diesel. But with a BMW, I buy it for the driving experience, and I just find the diesel driving experience to be not as engaging. If I wanted an engine that just wasn't as smooth, that didn't like to rev as much, that didn't make me smile as easily, I could buy something cheaper than a BMW for the same effect.

I think that if BMW had introduced a 320d several years ago, instead of a 335d, they would have done much better in the North American market with their diesel launch. They tried to sell diesel as "almost as good performance as gasoline" and it wasn't worth it. But if they had sold "the handling of a BMW with the economy of an efficient diesel" they could have carved out a niche, IMO. The fuel mileage would have made a better headline than "almost as good as a 335i"

Anyway, my thoughts on a diesel. If I have to, OK, but not while there are still better alternatives. And we are paying $1.6 per litre at the moment, which is $7.26 per gallon, and is over $6 even for the smaller US gallon. But I'd take a 35i over a 35d.
__________________
2007 X3 3.0si, 6 MT, Premium, White

Retired:
2008 535i, 6 MT, M Sport, Premium, Space Grey
2003 X5 3.0 Steptronic, Premium, Titanium Silver

2002 325xi 5 MT, Steel Grey
2004 Z4 3.0 Premium, Sport, SMG, Maldives Blue
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:25 AM.
vBulletin, Copyright 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0
© 2017 Xoutpost.com. All rights reserved. Xoutpost.com is a private enthusiast site not associated with BMW AG.
The BMW name, marks, M stripe logo, and Roundel logo as well as X3, X5 and X6 designations used in the pages of this Web Site are the property of BMW AG.
This web site is not sponsored or affiliated in any way with BMW AG or any of its subsidiaries.