Gay marriage banned in Cali..
 

that was surprising.

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/11...es-nationwide/

Yeah, that is surprising.

Not too surprised, there were a lot of vote yes on prop 8 supporters here in calif. Maybe this time the supreme court wont over rule it...but we will see.

Passed in Florida also. Constitutional amendments in FL now require a 60% majority to pass, and it was close. The 60% is in reaction to some really crazy ones passing in years past.

I was very upset about this as I worked very hard on it. I do find much comfort in the million of people who voted for our rights. That is really special to me.

Again, we had lots of mis-informed voters and people who flat out feel a threat from gay people, for those I feel sorry, thats a pathetic way to live, it really is.

I had tons of support and many many people fought for me so that again, means a lot.

Most insulting to me were the ratio of African American's that voted for 8. Must of slept through history class. 70%? So those who always screamed "equal rights" are judging now? Simply disgusting.

sorry boi:(

One day, Knuckles will carry our rings forth.:stickpoke

The local news had an interesting perspective regarding this issue.

Part of the reason for this is the gay movement's continuous reference to the civil rights movement to support their cause. Most African Americans find this analogy insulting. Secondly the shove it down your throat "weather you like it or not" position was another problem for a lot of people. Last it may have also had to do with the false television ads run by both sides.

All of these reasons turned people got off and mobilized the opposition to take a stand.

At least the margin is much closer this time compared to prop 22 with a 61% yes vs 38% no vote. Just like the way prop 8 was passed, there will be another time for another prop that could change things in your favor.

So all in all I think 3 or 4 states banned Gay marriage. My next question is, what happens to the 18K people married in Cali? Is that annulled because now it is not legal, it's like me saying I'm married to Jessica Biel :rofl:?

The people who got married are still married. They are simply grandfathered in. No new marriages can take place. Due to this it creases an issue that may/should make Prop 8 unconstitutional. Stand By

Yesterday we took a major step back as Californians. A decision I know we (not me or the other 5 million people on my side) will come to be ashamed of. I'm sorry to be a Californian today. I mean friggin Chicken's get bigger cages and we don't get rights? Pathetic California.

Funny, I find them close. The Whether you like it or not from Newsom wasn't his finish hour and the "Yes on 8" campaign" took it and used it.

I find both causes to be much closer than you think. True they are different in specific ways. But their overall oppressive 2nd class treatment is exactly the same.

Sure we could keep our mouths shut on the bus but did you ever have to come out black?
:dunno:

It's every person duty to become educated on the issues and anyone who voted against it who had to fight for their equality has ZERO sympathy from me. I think their ignorant and obviously lack an education on their past.

I have to agree with you on this one. Everyone is so happy on how far this country has come because we elected a black president, but we are still not treating gays and lesbians equally. :dunno:

IMO that is just wrong.

Maybe people in general are only concerned about equal rights when it affects them personally.

I am sure others will disagree, but I don't think being gay is a choice that a person makes for themselves. Just like you can't choose what color skin you are born with. Therefore, anyone who supports equal rights for any reason should be outraged with this decision.

I know you were just summerizing a news story, but I have to disagree with it.

A) Why would African Americans find it insulting that someone who is fighting for equal rights (which African Americans had to do) would compare their causes? It is the same thing, IMO. A group of people who are being discriminated against for something out of thier control trying to be treated eqaully. Sounds similar to me. Why not compare the two?

B) The shove it down your throat or the "whether you like it or not" position seem like BS. I bet back in the day white people thought that black people were shoving their "blackness" down their throats too. :rolleyes:

Many that I have spoke with are not opposed to gays being recognized as a legally joined couple, they just don't want the union to share the same name as a male/female union.

I can appreciate your opinion however there's enough information written on both subjects that explains why this is the case.

As far as the shove it down your throat thing? You need to live here in the Bay Area and be subjected to San Francisco's Mayor and the perception people have about his method of supporting the cause to appreciate this.

Here are a couple of examples to consider.

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache...&client=safari

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110004846

Good point. I do not live in San Fran, but I think that if gays and lesbians had equal rights across the board then maybe some of the whole "down your throat" thing would die down. :dunno: Maybe they are doing this because they are angry or trying to get their point across?

I would never say that "in general" gays and lesbians have suffered as much as african americans during slavery and even later on, but equality is equality, IMO. I don't think that there are different levels of it. Either everyone is equal and all groups have equal rights or one group is being discriminiated against. If we made gays and lesbians suffer as much as blacks had to during slavery, then would it be OK? It doesn't make sense to me that one group who had to fight for equality for so long would discriminate against another group trying to gain equality just because they haven't suffered the same. Regardless if they compare the struggle or not. Were most black people on board with equal rights for gays before the two struggles were compared, or did they significantly change their stance on equal rights for gays when gays started comparing struggles? I am not positive on this one, but my guess is that it was never supported on a large scale level and viewed as an equal rights issue by the vast majority of african americans. I could be wrong, I havn't done any surveys, but I don't think most African Americans view discrimination based on race and homosexuality as the same thing and IMO they are. I just think a group of people that were discriminated for so long should come to the defense of another group that is going through any amount of discrimination what so ever. Isn't that what the whole civil rights movement was about? Equal rights?

I can only speak for myself regarding this issue
and i have done enough of that in the past so i will
let it rest in favor of peace.

:iagree: 100%. It is wrong.

:iagree: 100%

Of course, the 18 million cracks in the glass ceiling has yet to be broken as well...

Time.com article:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/2008110...edincalifornia

Obama did not suffer the much-discussed "Bradley effect" this year, but it appears that gay people were afflicted by some version of it. As of late October, a Field Poll found that the pro-gay side was winning 49% to 44%, with 7% undecided. But gays could not quite make it to 49% on Election Day, meaning a few people may have been unwilling to tell pollsters that they intended to vote against equal marriage rights.

Pictures say 1000 words... :tsk:

Most people they were asking why they voted no they simply disregarded the civil rights movement and said the reason was Religion...

While I agree that everyone has an opinion...I am just disgusted when religion comes in play about real life issues....and especially when its affecting people life in this matter and here in the States...

I am happy to see that people will fight for this...equal means equal under any circumstance....

WOW!!!:wow:

Like it or not, some people live by their faith.

Yes I know but others don't...so if someone is not a religious person they still have to suffer for it....

There are many ways to look at this...I see marriage as everyone else...but when its actually affecting people to this point there needs to be something done...not to mention that other gay and lesbian couples married before this was passed...

I agree with you. When religion is so much a part of people's (as a whole) lives and it affects others, it is wrong. I am very strongly against any sort of union of Church and State in any circumstance. In Illinois a year or so ago there was a law passed that stated before a public school starts (elementary/hs, not colleges) there was to be a "silent reflection time", which is basically nice words for "prayer time". That is an instance where religion should not at all influence others.

:iagree: union of church and state should not be happening especially here...

I am not saying I condone it...but rather not impose 'my' religious views on people ..id rather look the other way on this and let others be happy for who/what they are...It affects me less that gays and lesbians are allowed to marry...rather than us voting for a ban which affects them greatly if passed just like in this situation...

I am sure people remember that girl in Iraq being stoned to death by her own family because of thier religious views on being with someone from a diff. background...that story somehow affected a lot...and I said to myself those people must be crazy...

So The media decided to focus on (I will hold my opinion) Mormon Religion, People are angry about this and won't let it go down without a fight.

Like I've said, I'm disgusted that so called Californians would vote this way. They should be ashamed of themselves and I hope it haunts them for a long time.

I agree 100% on your posts. Religion has NO place in these Government rights PERIOD end of story. YOUR view on the bible can be quite different from another's. That is why we have bodies of government because left to their own devices people can act quite idiotic (see Yes On 8 Campaign) That is why I hope they strike it down.

maybe it's just a message that this is a non-starter for most people.

if someone voted for the ban, they are less American or less Californian? Wow, we've been having that whole debate about the Presidential choice, and I've been told that we're all American, so just deal with it.

ps - does anyone really believe that everyone that voted for a ban like that did it for purely religious reasons? I seriously doubt that to be the case. There are probably a hundred reasons why people voted for the ban, and they all added up to a ban.

Seems the majority are still in favor of "marriage" being a man and woman.

And that folks "whether you like it or not" are the facts.

EDIT: Thanks Michelle......:thumbup:

I can't take it anymore.

The climate is made up of weather; whether it is nice out depends on whether it is raining or not. A wether is just a castrated sheep.

:thud:

For real? Wow, you can learn something new every day.:thumbup:

why am I seeing ads about gay marriage on here.

I hear people complaining about that all the time but i never see them.

My Final Thought:

I have no probl​ems with organ​ized relig​ion,​ but when you use it as a weapo​n to deny Ameri​cans the simpl​e right​s and privi​leges​ you are so fortu​nate to enjoy​,​ you great​ly lose my respe​ct.​ The Bible​ has some very posit​ive messages about​ love and admir​ation​ of other​s.​ Unfor​tunat​ely,​ many of you have been taugh​t your entir​e lives​ to only love and respe​ct those​ like you, who share​ the same “mora​ls” and belie​fs.​ When the bible​ was writt​en long ago, slave​ry was popul​ar.​ It took our count​ry nearl​y a hundr​ed years​ to realize that aspec​t of the bible​ was the wrong​ messa​ge,​ and indee​d we evolv​ed.​ It wasn'​t until​ Octob​er 1, 1948 that inter​racia​l marri​age was legal​ized in Calif​ornia​ by the Supre​me Court​ rulin​g of Perez​ vs. Sharp​.​ The court​ held that marri​age is a funda​menta​l right​ and that laws restr​ictin​g that right​ must not be based​ solel​y on preju​dice.​


Today​ is Novem​ber 6, 2008;​ 84,​777 days after​ our count​ry decla​red its indep​enden​ce and estab​lishe​d that “All men are creat​ed equal​.​” On Elect​ion Day, many of you carri​ed your bible​s with you to the votin​g booth​.​ With the secti​ons endor​sing slave​ry cross​ed out, you decid​ed it was too soon to accept Gays.​ “Love​ thy neigh​bor as thyse​lf”,​ unles​s that neigh​bor happe​ns to be Gay. I urge all of you who voted​ Yes on Propo​sitio​n 8 to look insid​e yours​elves​ and reali​ze what you have done.​ Many of you will look back on this decis​ion one day and shake​ your heads​ in disma​y.​ “How could​ I have been so narro​w minde​d?​” you will ask yours​elf.​ And as we hold hands​ and step forwa​rd as a natio​n unite​d,​ you will reali​ze – Indee​d we have evolv​ed.​

I know that was your final though, so I don't expect a reply. But I thought we went over in the past how "unions" offered the same legal rights as a married man and woman :dunno:

Thus, the term "marriage" is simply just that, a term. :dunno:

Boi, I would like to expound on Comrade Wagner's comment. (Looove the new pic:D )

{The greatest evil on our planet is Organised Religion. The whole irony is that people campaigning for their "Lord" are the ones doing the Devil's work. Throughout history, nothing comes near the amount of carnage and suffering created in the name of their "Lord". Evil Evil Evil people, those sacriligious bastards (and you thought PitBulls was a touchy subject!:p: )}

The state is offering the Legal benefits of Marriage. I can understand the frustration of limitation. Not having the final freedom to openly display your concern has to be tormenting. If you can find someone with whom you are fortunate enough to spend your life with. Your commitment made together should overshadow everything else. Ultimately, why do you care about how other people label your relationship. (Fighting those nut jobs is an endless battle.)

Take the good, and enjoy the day. Don't stop the fight but realize your getting the best of of this situation.

EDIT: The Black opposition stemmed from the church. And I do agree with the earlier statements of unfairness.

WRONG

Domestic Partnerships are NOT federally recognized. So their NOT equal. We can't:

File a joint tax form
Have Military benefits
Medicare benefits

etc. Their not federally recognized.

I'm NOT any less than anyone else and I DESERVE equal rights. That is why people are protesting.

Personally I'm wondering why certain churches still have their tax exempt status...revoke!

You can start with Scientology on that one.

I can't even imagine what you are thinking by making a statement like that. You make some generalities that are extremely offensive.

That said, the first rule of politics is building constituencies, especially if you want to pass something that is generally not popular (at least <50% popular, in this case).

Given that your state went heavily Democratic with historic record turnout numbers, you need to look somewhere else than conservative Republicans to blame for this not passing.

I still don't believe that basic religious philosophies are the root cause of this not passing. Given the turnout, and nature of the electorate in California, there has to be more there than that.

Um ok.. so its clearly about money right ? because every discussion about this subject always starts about rights and ends up about taxes, benefits and social security payouts. So lets say prop 8 didn't pass. You still wouldn't be federally recognized anyways. Just my opinion.

P.S. I hear a lot of blaming people religion on the this and I don't see how you can really link this just on people who are religious. Same argument goes when Republicans are automatically labeled as religious nut jobs or whatever. I understand your anger but how does this help your cause ?

Thank you QUICKSILVER again for putting things so eloquently. Thanks for the wonderful links that was very unbiased IMO and educational. I do agree with your every posts in this thread.

There were many angry black folks demanding changes, now gay folks. Only history will tell if the both movements weighed the same in civil rights perspective.

Regardless how you feel about this, Californians has spoken, including myself, we do not wish to change the definition of marriage. Please do respect the outcome since people have spoken. Tapping into the state Supreme Court backdoor seems like disrespect for legislative process to me IMO.

If it weren't for the rallies by opponents of Prop. 8 in my town, I wouldn't have dragged myself to the polling place. I really felt that enough was enough.

I sincerely hope that we would have an open gay president soon as long as he or she is the best person for the job because sexuality aren't relevant for the job qualifications. I also hope that gay unions to have legal and financial ramifications, and same respect as hetero-sexual unions, as long as I don't have to call it Marriage. That's too much to swallow if you insist on shoving it down to my throat.

I think everyone needs to take a step back, this group is not going to make or break gay rights.

I for one support gay rights and gay marriage but still have understand that marriage is special and by historic definition is between a man and woman.

My question for all of you that did or would have voted against Prop. 8 if possible is why do you care enough to deny others thier desires and happiness when it has no affect on you personally? Why not just let them be?

On a side note, a child can legally divorce thier parents, but gay people who want to be together can't get married. :confused:

I personally believe that being gay is more biological than choice. Both are at play here but the biology of the brain is very complex. Human sexuality is complex as well and there are great variations in the heterosexual community as it relates to what and who we are attracted to when it comes to sex which are both biological and environmental as well. Some homosexuals are very feminine and it is obvious that they are different and some you would be shocked if you knew that they were gay or bisexual for that fact.

That said I think children should NOT be subjected to what some are pushing as education relating to homosexuality. I can see a discussion later but not at early ages. I think this was a big factor in the measure not passing. Some of the more radical faction tends to turn people off enough that they just turn away even if they support gay marriage.

There is a difference between a fundamental right and a desire.

Much of the time, whatever rights that are granted to gay marriage are then extendable to "domestic partners", same sex or not. As a business owner, I don't have to try to figure out who is sleeping with who, and if I need to provide them insurance and other benefits or not. And, I can not afford to have mutliple boyfriends, girlfriends, or others popping in and out of my company benefits plan.

I have yet to see one of these initiatives that is sufficiently narrowly defined.

Last - re-read all of the Christian-bashing in all of the previous posts, and remind me why I should support someone else's lifetsyle, which I am not required to do, who has so little disregard for my lifestyle.

They need my support, not vice-versa.

I think a lot of the animostiy is directed to Christian fanatics, not you personally. I consider myself to be Christian and I believe in God, but I don't go to church every Sunday and I don't go around telling people how they should live their lives (not saying you do either), but there are many Christian fanatics that belive the Bible literally word for word, think you have to go to church every single Sunday, think you have to pray before you eat every meal, think abortions are an outrage even in the case of incest and rape and so on. I am a Christian and those beliefs are not in-line with mine. IMO, religion is the primary cause for all war and terrorism throughout the world and I think that ALL fanatics regardless of religion are responsible. I think everyone needs to chill out to be honest with you.

I really feel that gay people are born that way and they should have the right to be married to a partner and share all of the legal benefits. If being gay is indeed something a person is born into and not a personal choice, then how can it be an abomination like many Christian fanatics say? They are human beings born into a situation that they can not control. Just like being born white, black, female, male and so on. What would happen if you had a gay son or grandson? Would you look them in the face and say you voted against their happiness and equal rights? I understand if you don't want to go out of your way to support gays and lesbians, that is your right, but why go to the polls just to deny them their happiness?

I probably wouldn't have. However, I was there anyways for a bunch of other reasons.

To each his own, I suppose.

Agreed, to each his own. All I am saying is that while you were at the polls a large group of Americans hopes were hanging on the fact that you would check a box and give them rights that would make them happy and feel equal. Their happiness was in the voters hands. They were hoping you and others would grant them this request and you chose to check the other box denying them of rights and equality. That is fine. That is your right, but I just don't understand why people would chose to deny others of happiness when it really doenst affect them personally. If I were voting in California or Florida and that question came up, I would have asked myself who am I to judge these people? Who am I to deny them their happiness? Why would I want to deny them happiness and equality?

I really think people will look back on this in a few years when gay marriage is legal and ask themselves what were we thinking? No biggie, though.

Again, I don't find anything I said insulting. I think ANYONE who gave money to Prop 8 etc should be disgusted. How would you feel if someone voted on your marriage? I would LOVE to see someone change their hypocritical mind on this issue if they were directly in the firing line. Make me sick

I don't feel like I said anything insulting Yellow. If it's offensive to you I would ask why?

It's truth and NO don't pull the Domestic Partnerships are the same B*llshit, their not, never will be and are not federally recognized.

I hope the Prop 8 people are haunted by their vote and I have nothing but ill feeling towards them. Their not fellow California people or US Citizens. Their close-minded, uneducated rubbish.

I agree, Fanatics of anything, INCLUDING Christian's are a menace to society, right wingers included!

What on earth are you talking about? Marriage is Marriage, if I was married it would federally recognized. Their isn't a stance on the Federal level. They tried, but failed. So Yes, I would be.

What you're saying doesn't make sense. You might not find what you say insulting, but others might. Have you thought about that? What about when someone uses a derogatory word or racial slur, would it be ok, just because they didn't personally find it insulting?

No, you are wrong about a marriage being federally recognized.

DOMA is on a state level. The DOMA is stating that no state that does not recognize same-sex marriage shall be forced to.

Ex: CA's DOMA was ruled unconstitutional overturning it and allowing same sex marriage earlier this year. MASS and CT have both ruled their DOMA was unconstitutional thus allowing same sex marriage.

FSETH brought up some good points that you failed to address. I don't have any vested interest in this matter, but I'd love to hear your comments on the rest of this post. :)

As long as we are discussing the religious aspect of this debate, I'd like to add, that my religion supports same sex marriages.

So why are Christian values being forced on me when my own religion accepts homosexuality.

That is why we are supposed to have a separation of church and state, so your religious views aren't imposed on me and my religious views aren't imposed on you, on a civil level.

I couldn't agree more.

First off, we are not talking about changing the law to take away some "right" that someone has (well, maybe in California they did, but I live in Florida).

Second - reread my posts - I haven't said if I voted or not for it here.

Third - If my personal conviction is that same-sex marriages are not the traditional definition of marriage, it is my prerogative to think so.

Fourth - BB said something ridiculous like people had crossed out passages of the bible that condoned slavery, yet discriminated against gay people. You don't think that's offensive?

Next - he needs my support to make a change, not vice versa. So far, for pointing out that his name calling is offensive, I get a bunch of live and let live comments back. Screw that. I walked around calling gay or minority people slang terms, and constantly criticizing their lifestyle, I'd be a bigot. However, me saying that is offensive to me that my religious views are being made fun, and pissed on, somehow still makes me a bigot.

Next to Last - if I had a gay kid, it's really none of yours or anyone's business what I would tell them and what I wouldn't.

Last - I'm sorry, but I don't buy that being gay is entirely some innate biological function. I believe that it is, in many cases, a choice. The effort to legalize marriage is an attempt to have the rest of us sanction that choice.

I have not yet heard anyone make a compelling, raional argument that says why the law should change, other than being attacked for my personal religious views.

They need me, I don't need them. They need to make the case without name calling and insults, and maybe I'll listen.

I still contend you ar ebarking up the wrong tree. Are you telling me that all of those Democrats, who turned out in records to vote for yor Obama, are religious fanatics? I seriously doubt it.

Also, the continued phrases "they are not Californian, or American" are childish. We voted, in Florida, to add a bunch of stuff to our consitution. Personally, I feel like constitutional amendments let the lawmakers off the hook - they should make the law or not, regardless of its topic, and then take the heat either way. They hide behind these amendment initiatives as a way of not having to answer to their constituents, which I think is wrong.

So, are the people that voted for all of those stupid amendments that I voted against not Floridians? (almost all of them passed, and I don't like them. And yes, some of them abridged rights that I had).

You really need to grow up, make your case on its merits, and leave the vitriole out of it, or you'll never go anywhere.

A few posts back, I tried to say just that, but I also said something like lay off God. You chose to ignore the political advice, but to continue to trash religion.

In California of all places, "religious fanatics" did not carry that amendment.

I think this is the main problem. I believe that it is not a choice and is something you are born with. If you think it is a choice, then that changes everything. Of course you wouldn't fight for their rights if you think it is a choice.

I think Bill Maher said it best when he said that "black people love themselves some Jesus". If black people turned out in record numbers for this election, then their religious beliefs (along with others beliefs) could have had something to do with the outcome. Church and state should be separated, but many people take religion with them to the polls, IMO. It very well could have had something to do with it.

I would hardly call that a right wing conspiracy, a conservative movement, right wing nut jobs, or anything of the like, which was my point before the name calling started.

And, the nature of democracy and elections is that we all take all of our biases and life experiences with us to the booth. If a lady with red hair cut you off in traffic on the way to vote, and you vote against a lady with red hair who is running for election, that is absolutely your right, and you don't have to explain it to anyone.

You wouldn't be less American for it.

Perhaps it is possible that religion has little to do with many people's objection to gay marriage. Maybe some people just aren't comfortable with it.

:iagree: :iagree:

That's too easy. If there is no obvious villain trying to deprive their fellow Americans of their rights, then the aggrieved classes have no one to blame but their own inability to make their case to the masses.

And, it is alot easier to hide behind a couple of big mouth know-it-all celebrities, who like to blame everyone else (insert - Melissa Ethridge, Ellen, Rosie, et al), than it is to actually take some personal responsibility for your plight.

You can't be a victim if there is no boogeyman.

Maybe some people also mask their own objections to it by stating religious reasons. It is much easier to say it is against my religion than it is to say it repulses me.

Finally, some truth and clarity.

I never put all the blame on religious fanatics. It is a major factor though, IMO. I know there are a lot of people who just flat out can't stand the sight of a gay or lesbian couple. This isn't going to reduce the number of gay people in this world though.

At the end of the day it is just unfortunate for those who are affected by this.

Sorry bud, I didn't meant to imply that you did.:thumbup:

Ylwjacket and FSETH, thanks for elevating the discussion. Very well stated points there.

I was listening today to a description of the issue as being all about gay marriage, but that only some people were debating gay marriage. Many interest groups were arguing that it was more about gay rights, while others argued that it was more about marriage. There are three distinct definitions of the issue embodied there. I thought that was an interesting summary.

Someone said something funny on the radio the other day. The guy said.

"Banning gay marriage isn't fair, these guys have every right to be just as miserable as me!"