Originally Posted by Quicksilver (Post 653682)

Originally Posted by StanF18 (Post 653691)

From where I sit, this debate is really about a fundamental philosophical difference in the role of Government. If you believe that basic health care is a PRIVILEGE and not a RIGHT, then I guess we do not really need to change anything. Survival of the fittest, so to speak. Let the private Insurance Giants deny coverage to premium-paying citizens on a whim, whenever they feel like it. Let folks pile up enormous health care bills after a catastrpohic illness or surgery, without any hope of reconciling their finances. Let health care continue to be the leading cause of personal bankruptcy and family financial ruin in this country (which it is). I guess for Libertarians who believe that the role of Government is strictly defense against foreign invaders, and not much else, this is a perfectly acceptable situation. I do not agree with this position, but I can appreciate where it's coming from: self-reliance, personal responsibility, intrinsic inefficiencies of big government, etc.

Personally, I do not adhere to this position. We are the only western Democracy which does not provide unfettered, bill-free access to health care to its citizens. The GOP is convinced that the UK, Canada, Australia, France, and Germany have it all wrong, and we have it all right. There is no question that we have the best medical technology, the most advanced diagnositcs and imaging, and space-age surgical
procedures. But what good is having all the space-age medicine in the world, when Private HMOs and PPOs give incentives to their own employees for denial of coverage, and folks wind up mired in $$tens of thousands$$ or $$$hundreds of thousands$$$ in un-reimbursed medical bills? Instead of concentrating on their treatments and on getting better after their surgery or car accident (like they are able to do in the UK or Cananda), Americans have to spend all their recuperation time on fighting with Health Insurance reps and Collection Agencies. Because the health insurance they THOUGHT would protect them, and to whom they have dutifully paid their premiums, refuses to do what an insurance company is SUPPOSED to do: PAY UP!

To use previous failures of big Government as a justification to not try and fix this mess, is neither helpful nor sincere. Forget about Government failure: What about the failure of the private sector? Specifically, the Aetnas, the CIGNAs, the Blue Crosses that have shown a big middle finger to the millions of American families that have faithfully paid their health insurance premiums? Only to be denied and discarded like so much human garbage by insurance execs watching their company's bottom line?

If you truly believe it should be every man, woman, and child for themselves when it comes to health care, then I can see how the current proposal for a Govt option and for HMO regulation is not to your liking. Personally, I think it's a travesty that the most powerful Democracy in the world can take out hidden Taliban warlords on a whim with remote-controlled Predator drones, but cannot provide sustained, basic health care and diagnostics to its' working citizens. And how this biggest, baddest, wealthiest, strongest Democracy lets the greedy private insurance giants drive millions hard-working families into bankruptcy through denial of coverage and worthless Explanation of Benefits statements. The horror stories out there are epic, and way too numerous to list. Or to bother with website links. Do your own research and it won't take you long to see how folks are being f^&ed by their health insurers every day.

Kudos to the Obama Administration for taking on this mess, and for trying to dispel the huge amount of malicious disinformation being spewed forth by the Health Insurance giants.

Originally Posted by StanF18 (Post 653691)

From where I sit, this debate is really about a fundamental philosophical difference in the role of Government. If you believe that basic health care is a PRIVILEGE and not a RIGHT, then I guess we do not really need to change anything. Survival of the fittest, so to speak. Let the private Insurance Giants deny coverage to premium-paying citizens on a whim, whenever they feel like it. Let folks pile up enormous health care bills after a catastrpohic illness or surgery, without any hope of reconciling their finances. Let health care continue to be the leading cause of personal bankruptcy and family financial ruin in this country (which it is). I guess for Libertarians who believe that the role of Government is strictly defense against foreign invaders, and not much else, this is a perfectly acceptable situation. I do not agree with this position, but I can appreciate where it's coming from: self-reliance, personal responsibility, intrinsic inefficiencies of big government, etc.

Personally, I do not adhere to this position. We are the only western Democracy which does not provide unfettered, bill-free access to health care to its citizens. The GOP is convinced that the UK, Canada, Australia, France, and Germany have it all wrong, and we have it all right. There is no question that we have the best medical technology, the most advanced diagnositcs and imaging, and space-age surgical
procedures. But what good is having all the space-age medicine in the world, when Private HMOs and PPOs give incentives to their own employees for denial of coverage, and folks wind up mired in $$tens of thousands$$ or $$$hundreds of thousands$$$ in un-reimbursed medical bills? Instead of concentrating on their treatments and on getting better after their surgery or car accident (like they are able to do in the UK or Cananda), Americans have to spend all their recuperation time on fighting with Health Insurance reps and Collection Agencies. Because the health insurance they THOUGHT would protect them, and to whom they have dutifully paid their premiums, refuses to do what an insurance company is SUPPOSED to do: PAY UP!

To use previous failures of big Government as a justification to not try and fix this mess, is neither helpful nor sincere. Forget about Government failure: What about the failure of the private sector? Specifically, the Aetnas, the CIGNAs, the Blue Crosses that have shown a big middle finger to the millions of American families that have faithfully paid their health insurance premiums? Only to be denied and discarded like so much human garbage by insurance execs watching their company's bottom line?

If you truly believe it should be every man, woman, and child for themselves when it comes to health care, then I can see how the current proposal for a Govt option and for HMO regulation is not to your liking. Personally, I think it's a travesty that the most powerful Democracy in the world can take out hidden Taliban warlords on a whim with remote-controlled Predator drones, but cannot provide sustained, basic health care and diagnostics to its' working citizens. And how this biggest, baddest, wealthiest, strongest Democracy lets the greedy private insurance giants drive millions hard-working families into bankruptcy through denial of coverage and worthless Explanation of Benefits statements. The horror stories out there are epic, and way too numerous to list. Or to bother with website links. Do your own research and it won't take you long to see how folks are being f^&ed by their health insurers every day.

Kudos to the Obama Administration for taking on this mess, and for trying to dispel the huge amount of malicious disinformation being spewed forth by the Health Insurance giants.

Originally Posted by StanF18 (Post 653691)

From where I sit, this debate is really about a fundamental philosophical difference in the role of Government. If you believe that basic health care is a PRIVILEGE and not a RIGHT, then I guess we do not really need to change anything. Survival of the fittest, so to speak. Let the private Insurance Giants deny coverage to premium-paying citizens on a whim, whenever they feel like it. Let folks pile up enormous health care bills after a catastrpohic illness or surgery, without any hope of reconciling their finances. Let health care continue to be the leading cause of personal bankruptcy and family financial ruin in this country (which it is). I guess for Libertarians who believe that the role of Government is strictly defense against foreign invaders, and not much else, this is a perfectly acceptable situation. I do not agree with this position, but I can appreciate where it's coming from: self-reliance, personal responsibility, intrinsic inefficiencies of big government, etc.

Personally, I do not adhere to this position. We are the only western Democracy which does not provide unfettered, bill-free access to health care to its citizens. The GOP is convinced that the UK, Canada, Australia, France, and Germany have it all wrong, and we have it all right. There is no question that we have the best medical technology, the most advanced diagnositcs and imaging, and space-age surgical
procedures. But what good is having all the space-age medicine in the world, when Private HMOs and PPOs give incentives to their own employees for denial of coverage, and folks wind up mired in $$tens of thousands$$ or $$$hundreds of thousands$$$ in un-reimbursed medical bills? Instead of concentrating on their treatments and on getting better after their surgery or car accident (like they are able to do in the UK or Cananda), Americans have to spend all their recuperation time on fighting with Health Insurance reps and Collection Agencies. Because the health insurance they THOUGHT would protect them, and to whom they have dutifully paid their premiums, refuses to do what an insurance company is SUPPOSED to do: PAY UP!

To use previous failures of big Government as a justification to not try and fix this mess, is neither helpful nor sincere. Forget about Government failure: What about the failure of the private sector? Specifically, the Aetnas, the CIGNAs, the Blue Crosses that have shown a big middle finger to the millions of American families that have faithfully paid their health insurance premiums? Only to be denied and discarded like so much human garbage by insurance execs watching their company's bottom line?

If you truly believe it should be every man, woman, and child for themselves when it comes to health care, then I can see how the current proposal for a Govt option and for HMO regulation is not to your liking. Personally, I think it's a travesty that the most powerful Democracy in the world can take out hidden Taliban warlords on a whim with remote-controlled Predator drones, but cannot provide sustained, basic health care and diagnostics to its' working citizens. And how this biggest, baddest, wealthiest, strongest Democracy lets the greedy private insurance giants drive millions hard-working families into bankruptcy through denial of coverage and worthless Explanation of Benefits statements. The horror stories out there are epic, and way too numerous to list. Or to bother with website links. Do your own research and it won't take you long to see how folks are being f^&ed by their health insurers every day.

Kudos to the Obama Administration for taking on this mess, and for trying to dispel the huge amount of malicious disinformation being spewed forth by the Health Insurance giants.

Originally Posted by LobsterX (Post 653710)

Here's an interesting video...

Glenn Beck - Current Events & Politics - Video: Obama is a charming liar?

Oh, btw Chile1, Im sure you'll love the source of the video ;)

Originally Posted by Wagner (Post 653734)

Woohoo a racist article..awesome. I guess when in doubt you could always say it is "angry white men" :rolleyes: FAIL. If one thing is true, the new administration is showing where real racism lies IMO.

Originally Posted by Quicksilver (Post 653814)

You could describe it that way but in reality
this is the way many people seem to think.
It's too bad but the fact is it is proving to be more
than just opinion.

Racism, radicals, and reform: Why some Americans are afraid of President Obama
Lone Wolves and Lynch Mobs: The Threats Behind Town Hall Meetings Unsilent Generation

Originally Posted by Wagner (Post 653837)

Doubtful that "this is the way many people think"...not a single person I know. Guess I'm just in the minority.

Originally Posted by StanF18 (Post 653691)

From where I sit, this debate is really about a fundamental philosophical difference in the role of Government. If you believe that basic health care is a PRIVILEGE and not a RIGHT, then I guess we do not really need to change anything. Survival of the fittest, so to speak. Let the private Insurance Giants deny coverage to premium-paying citizens on a whim, whenever they feel like it. Let folks pile up enormous health care bills after a catastrpohic illness or surgery, without any hope of reconciling their finances. Let health care continue to be the leading cause of personal bankruptcy and family financial ruin in this country (which it is). I guess for Libertarians who believe that the role of Government is strictly defense against foreign invaders, and not much else, this is a perfectly acceptable situation. I do not agree with this position, but I can appreciate where it's coming from: self-reliance, personal responsibility, intrinsic inefficiencies of big government, etc.

Personally, I do not adhere to this position. We are the only western Democracy which does not provide unfettered, bill-free access to health care to its citizens. The GOP is convinced that the UK, Canada, Australia, France, and Germany have it all wrong, and we have it all right. There is no question that we have the best medical technology, the most advanced diagnositcs and imaging, and space-age surgical
procedures. But what good is having all the space-age medicine in the world, when Private HMOs and PPOs give incentives to their own employees for denial of coverage, and folks wind up mired in $$tens of thousands$$ or $$$hundreds of thousands$$$ in un-reimbursed medical bills? Instead of concentrating on their treatments and on getting better after their surgery or car accident (like they are able to do in the UK or Cananda), Americans have to spend all their recuperation time on fighting with Health Insurance reps and Collection Agencies. Because the health insurance they THOUGHT would protect them, and to whom they have dutifully paid their premiums, refuses to do what an insurance company is SUPPOSED to do: PAY UP!

To use previous failures of big Government as a justification to not try and fix this mess, is neither helpful nor sincere. Forget about Government failure: What about the failure of the private sector? Specifically, the Aetnas, the CIGNAs, the Blue Crosses that have shown a big middle finger to the millions of American families that have faithfully paid their health insurance premiums? Only to be denied and discarded like so much human garbage by insurance execs watching their company's bottom line?

If you truly believe it should be every man, woman, and child for themselves when it comes to health care, then I can see how the current proposal for a Govt option and for HMO regulation is not to your liking. Personally, I think it's a travesty that the most powerful Democracy in the world can take out hidden Taliban warlords on a whim with remote-controlled Predator drones, but cannot provide sustained, basic health care and diagnostics to its' working citizens. And how this biggest, baddest, wealthiest, strongest Democracy lets the greedy private insurance giants drive millions hard-working families into bankruptcy through denial of coverage and worthless Explanation of Benefits statements. The horror stories out there are epic, and way too numerous to list. Or to bother with website links. Do your own research and it won't take you long to see how folks are being f^&ed by their health insurers every day.

Kudos to the Obama Administration for taking on this mess, and for trying to dispel the huge amount of malicious disinformation being spewed forth by the Health Insurance giants.