Steering wheel shaking.
 

Recently put on style 87 20' wheels with 30mm spacers in the front and 20mm in the back. I'm running 9.5s with 275/35/20s all around.

The X started shaking so I took her to get an alignment and a rebalance. Below you can see the before and after result from the alignment they did with the Hawkeye system.

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07...39da495ca6.jpg

The X runs straight now but I'm still getting a little shaking on acceleration and braking. Would I have to get hub centric rings?


2002 BMW X5 E53 3.0i

"If you ain't first, you're last"

Depends on the spacers and the wheels.

Are the wheels genuine?

Do the spacers have the correct bore diameter to seat on the hub? Do they have the right sized lip for the wheel to mount to?

If the answer to any of those question is 'No' or 'I don't know', then I'd suggest that you get answers to those questions as a priority. Any advice in the meantime is shooting in the dark.

If the wheels are not 72.5mm, then yes get rings to make them hub-centric. Only way I was able to completely eliminate vibe from 74mm (e70 fitment) replica wheels. I could get very minimal vibe by centering the wheels carefully during installation, but not eliminated until siliconing hub rings onto the wheels.

^And what he said about the spacers. Do you experience vibe without the spacers (if possible to fit without spacers)?

5 things:

-What spacers are you using? Are they bolt on H&R (DRA) or are they just slipped over the hub and using longer bolts?

-If your wheels are genuine, get them road forced balanced
-If they aren't genuine, be sure you have hub centric rings and get them road forced balanced

-If you are getting shaking on braking, check your front end suspension components. Thrust arms, tie rods etc

-You have a ton of toe going on in the rear of the X, I would dial that down to the bare minimum, under .04 (mine is .01) to save the rear tires from wearing down prematurely on the inside from the combo of too much toe with the already spec'd neg camber

What he said. Your toe is in spec, but that spec loves to chew tires. Set to 0.01 or 0.02 total and enjoy long life out of your tires :)

And contrary to popular belief, you can adjust the front camber. There is a small screw pin that can be removed to dial in/out the camber at the top of the strut tower

-Wheels are genuine

-The 30mm spacers are from H&R and the 20 mm spacers are from ecs tuning

-I'll go back to get them road forced balanced and have them adjust the toe

-For the end results they said that's the best they can get it to and that shop is the only shop in town that has the Hawkeye system let alone does alignments for BMW period

-Also the tires wouldn't be a problem right? 275-35-20s My friend sold me two falken tires and one Mickey Thompson for $250. Too good of a deal to pass up. Bought the other MT tire once is was available and now running MTs in the back and Falkens in the front


2002 BMW X5 E53 3.0i

"If you ain't first, you're last"

Those aren't the best tires in the world but shouldn't cause a vibe, they are loud though. That's something they would have noticed when they were balancing them originally (the tires having an issue that would cause vibe).

Since your wheels are factory e53 wheels no hub rings are needed...

Only thing left (other than mechanical problem in suspension somewhere) are the spacers. Have you tried running without spacers to see what happens? Just as a test.

^ What he said.

:iagree:

Ahhhh you are the guy who has the wrong size tires on the 20s. Well considering you have a mismatched set, that could definitely be contributing, since Falken and MT's are two totally different tires.

Secondly, I guarantee the ECS 20mm spacers are contributing to the problem as far as vibes go, since they are on the front. The 30mm H&R's are bolt ons right? If so they are fine. The ECS use longer bolts? If so thats a HUGE problem in regards to vibes. Well documented that non bolt on spacers on E53's cause issues.

3rd, if the shop can't align to a spec you gave them (and especially something easy like dialing out the toe) they are a bunch of fuckin idiots, its not hard to do. These alignment monkeys are trained to "get it in the green/middle", find a guy who knows what he is doing at the shop, and tell him you want the rear toe dialed out to save your treadwear. If he is ASE, he should know.

Good luck.

They can set toe to whatever you tell them. And that positive camber in the front can be dialled out. I'll take a picture of the strut tower that is from factory and the other where the pin is removed.

Here is the passenger (right) strut tower without the camber tweaked.
http://i652.photobucket.com/albums/u...710_180115.jpg

Here you can see the adjustment on the drivers (left) side. The stubby nub (exposed rust spot) is removed and the strut shifted. You can see the exposed slot under the nut.
http://i652.photobucket.com/albums/u...710_180134.jpg

Positive camber = not good :)

Always a good idea to have tires road force balanced but if you only have shaking when you are accelerating and braking and not at any cruising speed I would be checking the front suspension.

Have to wait until Monday to get everything done again. They do road force balance but apparently you have to request it. Should've know since this is the only shop in town that does alignments on BMWs otherwise I'd have to go to the dealer in Minneapolis or an Indy shop in Fargo, ND. This town is really behind the times

What's the difference between 275/35/20s & 275/40/20s though? I know it's a 1.5-2 inch difference in height but is there a performance difference between the two?

The ECS spacers are bolt ons also


2002 BMW X5 E53 3.0i

"If you ain't first, you're last"

Here are H&R DRA spacers which don't have reported problems from using the spacers that just use longer lug bolts, see the bolts they come with, those "bolt on" the spacer to the hub and then you put your wheel on and just use stock bolts that thread into the spacer.

http://c1552172.r72.cf0.rackcdn.com/115874_x600.jpg


You're using these ECS spacers which are probably contributing to the vibrations, especially on the front, because they are using longer bolts and arent a wheel centric spacer.

http://c1552172.r72.cf0.rackcdn.com/685981_x600.jpg

Ahh okay. Thanks for the input. I'll order the 20mm H&R spacers then. Funny how I couldn't find that size spacer when I ordered the 30mm. That's why I went with the ecs tuning ones.


2002 BMW X5 E53 3.0i

"If you ain't first, you're last"

IIRC the DRA style only comes in 25mm and 30mm, so you may need to put 25mm up front instead of the 20 you have now. Just go on ECS website and be sure the spacers you get are DRA's

You can sell the ECS spacers on ebay, but before you do all that, definitely get the wheels road force balanced. Do it WITHOUT the spacers on, so you can verify the wheels are balanced true. Then afterwards, put the spacers back on. If you don't have vibes with the spacers, but once you put them on you do, then you know its 100% the spacers

Are those wheels hub centric (OE) or are they reps? If they are reps you need a hub centric ring, but I dont know if we went over that or not

Yeah the wheels are OE and I was gonna get these spacers

http://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-52...FYQ_aQodqMQI5A

I can run 25mm up front without rubbing?


2002 BMW X5 E53 3.0i

"If you ain't first, you're last"

from the 'wheel and tyre bible':

2113 rolling circumference on the 35s and 2196mm for the 40s. that's almost a 4% difference in size and indicated 70 = 73mph.

my car's speedo is off 3% low so maybe my next set of tires i'll bump up a cm on the width, same ratio and get my speedo in sync with actual speed.

when the PO bumped up from 235/65 to 255/60 it turns out that's the perfect upgrade to not mess with circumference; 0.07% difference; never seen it any closer; 70mph = 69.95mph (too bad it was off to start with).

What i'm considering is keeping my 255/60/17 with the already mounted winter tires for winter and getting some 275/50/18 set for summer (nearly identical rolling circumference, wouldn't even need spacers)

Those from Turner look like DRA style spacers, I would confirm with them though, but they look right to me.

Took the X to the shop today to get the specs redone and spacers removed. Plus got the wheels road forced balanced.

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07...3b361bba0e.jpg

On the way home I noticed that I'm getting shaking during cruising speeds as well as braking and accelerating. And it's worse than before I bought it in. Ordering the H&R spacers today for the fronts.

Any more advice?



2002 BMW X5 E53 3.0i

"If you ain't first, you're last"

It all starts AFTER you paid the X off.......

Nothing is ever easy with a BMW.....but extremely worth it when it's done.....correctly

Yes. Find and fix the problem before complicating it further by fitting spacers.

All your suspension components need to be checked - bushes, ball joints etc. All need checking.

I would suggest trying a different set of wheels and tyres - although that is difficult if you don't know someone who can assist with supplying them for the test.

Specifically, what is the model of tyres you are running? I know they are Falkens and Mickey Thompsons, but what model? And have you tried swapping them front to rear to see if that cures the symptom?

And what tyre pressures are you running? With the lower-than-specified profile of 35 (standard in that range is 274/40-20) I would expect you to need pressures at least a couple or 4 PSI higher than the placard states.

Appreciate the info. i'll have the shop take a look at my suspension soon. I'm already looking into new tires. Seen a set of Pirellis set of 4 for $720 with free shipping. May just spring for those and sell the other ones.

I know the MT are the 2012 model, I'm not sure what model are the Falkens.

I'm hoping it's not the suspension since I find it weird that I never had shaking until I got the new tires/wheels put on. I'm gonna put my stock 17s back on and see if I get shaking.

I don't know what a '2012' mickey Thompson is. The only models I have seen of them in the size you specify are "Street Comp".

Interestingly, the only Falken and MT tyres in the size you specify - that I have been able to find - are load rating 102. I believe the X5 requires load rating 106 minimum on the 20 inch rims.

The right tyres are a combination of factors - size, speed AND load rating.

Yes that is correct the MTs are "street comp" and those and the falkens have a load rating of 102. Appreciate the tip. I overlooked that factor. May end up pulling the trigger on those pirellis esp if i don't get any shaking on my stock 17s.

Really learning that if it's too good to be true and it really is haha

Yeah, doesn't help the hip-pocket though does it :)

It would be a shame if that is the problem, but certainly worth checking on your stock 17's. I'd take them for a run with the pressures right up - get them up around 40PSI. Then run them at "recommended" pressures, then take them down around 25PSI and take them for a run. The different pressures will load the suspension in different ways - may help identify if the problem is in the suspension, or the wheel/tyre package.

Please for the love of god buy the right sized tire if you do get rid of the mismatched set, ants_oz makes a good point the load rating is also a factor.

Looking at your alignment specs, they are pretty much perfect now, HOWEVER, only the rear toe should be set closer to 0. You do need some front toe (it can be set within spec) because there is significantly less camber in the front, otherwise you'll get a wandering feeling on the highway.

However, that will not cause your shaking. Did they give you a printout per wheel of how each wheel balanced out? Did we confirm whether you have reps needing hub rings or are they genuine BMW wheels?

So you are running with no spacers now and still have the shaking if I am reading correct?

Are all 4 of your wheels the same width? If so try moving the rears to the front and see what happens.

The X got new 275/40/20 Pirelli Tires on it. Checked the suspension and it's good. I have the correct tires on it now and i'm STILL getting shaking. Anyone know what else can be the problem? The wheel itself is OEM and there are no cracks or bends, suspension is good, tires are good. What else?

How was the suspension checked, and by whom?

Same question. You have to get under the car and start poking around with crowbars to load/unload things. I have a slight vibration (wheel shake) at highway cruising speed as well... it's due to worn torsion arm bushings. I have them hear to replace, but have been too busy with family and sports as of yet.

^Well thats an improvement. I just re-read all 3 pages to be sure of this before I ask:

You say "suspension is good". Are you sure? Did the mechanic at the tire shop say that? How many miles on the X now and what have you personally replaced since you have had the X in regards to suspension parts.

It's the front ball joints and maybe the steering yolk, I because went through this handles amazing again...... ;)

Steering wheel shaking.
 

Took the X to the shop to get the suspension fully inspected. After 13 years it's on the decline haha.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08...9bb547fbac.jpg

I was thinking about lowering it since all that work has to be done. Any helpful advice/links to parts that I can use?


2002 BMW X5 E53 3.0i

"If you ain't first, you're last"

It all starts AFTER you paid the X off.......

Nothing is ever easy with a BMW.....but extremely worth it when it's done.....correctly

So as it turns out, the suspension was not "all good"? Has the shaking now gone?

This was just a quote. I wanna see if I can switch out some parts in order to lower it since they're gonna be under there anyway. I know H&R lowering springs are good but wondering what else should I use. Everything they're going to replace it with is oem parts.


2002 BMW X5 E53 3.0i

"If you ain't first, you're last"

It all starts AFTER you paid the X off.......

Nothing is ever easy with a BMW.....but extremely worth it when it's done.....correctly

Can you do any of that yourself and save some money?

At the very least order the OE parts online and bring them in.

Let the shop order and use OE parts if you head that route....
IMO, it's always best to let the shop order the part if they are going to install it..

Many shops won't install customer provided parts. Even if OEM.

I know it sounds d*ck for them to do that... but they charge a markup on the parts (still less than the dealer usually) so that they can provide you the warranty for them should something happen. The shop I worked at would give zero warranty if we installed your parts, even if they came in a BMW box.

LMFAO AT THAT QUOTE

Find another shop man. So they are certain that ALL 4 of your shocks/struts are blown, as well as out of the entire front and rear suspension that only 2 (out of 8) control arms and 2 (out of 4) ball joints on the front/rear are needing replaced? And, your steering rack needs to be replaced?

Find a BMW specialized indy man, the quote is hilarious. If you are looking for an excuse to lower it then I'm sure you could do so with a Bilstein shock/H&R spring combo quite easily, but for the shaking, you need to replace suspension parts. The shocks/struts/springs IMO are not contributing to the shake, and the shop is trying to take your wallet for a ride.

Start with getting this kit, and getting it installed, cost is less than just the 2 ball joints and 2 control arms they quoted you LOL, and I can probably guarantee that this would resolve 90% of the vibrations. Even without touching your shocks/struts.

https://www.fcpeuro.com/#/products/b...bmw5x10piece-l

Also, I highly doubt your rack needs replacing, you probably just have a leak from the high pressure hoses if anything.

What Ricky Bobby sez. I didn't note your mileage, but shops like this, in my experience, tend to assume replacement of shocks/struts [which on bmws, generally, are a very long life item] when the issue is more often ball joints and control arm bushings. Can't speak to availability of reputable indy bimmer shops in scenic Minot, but a good suspension shop, with you providing the key parts, might be the most cost-effective step [including lowering] if you [like me ....] aren't equipped and sufficiently skilled to do the work yourself. Good luck!

Haha unfortunately this is the only shop where I'm at that has a guy who works on imports. Even crazier this is the shop on the military base that I'm stationed at. The nearest BMW dealer is 8 hrs away in Minneapolis let alone an Indy shop. This is why I bring anything quoted from a shop to this forum so ya can pick it apart. The struggle of being in North Dakota. All these BMWs coming up and not one Indy shop in the state that I know of.

I will go ahead with that kit and get that installed and go from there. Appreciate the help.


2002 BMW X5 E53 3.0i

"If you ain't first, you're last"

It all starts AFTER you paid the X off.......

Nothing is ever easy with a BMW.....but extremely worth it when it's done.....correctly

Nothing listed in ND or SD yet, or even MN (I just submitted one I know of there), but this is a great resource, if you find someone close to you that does a good job, please submit it.

http://www.xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-foru...ationwide.html

I guarantee it will help, especially if your suspension is original. You would notice if your shocks/struts were blown.

I would also try and get a second opinion or ask why they quoted you a new steering rack? Do you leak ATF at all?

x2 on the steering rack. the hoses break down over time, are accessible and not hard to replace incident to replacing the power steering reservoir. The hoses/PS reservoir are a common age-related fix - the actual rack, not so much.

RE: the PS rack, when I was in having motor mounts replaced, mine cracked when they were trying to loosen some things up (subframe sound right?) to deal with the mounts. They covered it, since it was their error...

Perhaps something similar happened while they were looking at your truck and they're trying to offload the cost onto you by saying you need it?

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08...84810df9be.jpg

Yeah I believe I am.


2002 BMW X5 E53 3.0i

"If you ain't first, you're last"

It all starts AFTER you paid the X off.......

Nothing is ever easy with a BMW.....but extremely worth it when it's done.....correctly

Are you sure that's not just condensation from the AC? One thing I've noticed with my X5 is that it drops more condensation than any other vehicle I've owned in 27 years of owning vehicles.

Hmm I'll have to really check it out. It's does look and smell like water when I touch it. Hopefully it's just condensation. I haven't had any performance issues with the X. Stills drives the same before it starting shaking. No problems with shifting


2002 BMW X5 E53 3.0i

"If you ain't first, you're last"

It all starts AFTER you paid the X off.......

Nothing is ever easy with a BMW.....but extremely worth it when it's done.....correctly

That looks like the two AC drains.

^^^Agreed. You'd know if you were leaking ATF, because ATF STINKS

Steering wheel shaking.
 

Well after having the control arm kit installed (thanks for the link RB) I'm still getting shaking. I get shaking when accelerating and before I hit 65-70mph.

I'm in the process of getting new struts since there is a leak on my right driver side strut. Might as well replaced them all. My mechanic told me again that the steering rack and pinion needs to get replaced. (Any helpful links for that?) Other than those two items, would there be anything else contributing to the shaking?


2002 BMW X5 E53 3.0i

"If you ain't first, you're last"

It all starts AFTER you paid the X off.......

Nothing is ever easy with a BMW.....but extremely worth it when it's done.....correctly

Have all the bushings on the front suspension been tested to assure that movement and play are within expectations? With 194K miles on your vehicle I wouldn't be surprised if other bushings/components were worn. Replacing the rack would be a last resort for me unless your mechanic can show you on the lift how the rack is malfunctioning.

This doesn't usually affect the steering... but have the motor mounts been done? I've seen extreme cases where they were failed so completely the oil pan was sitting on the rack.

I wouldn't think the rack and pinion would cause shaking under load or under braking. Glad the control arm kit worked out well, must really feel like a new truck again.

Check the motor mounts, with your mileage it might be the ticket.

Time to think through what you have done and your next step.

You have spent money that didn't fix anything. The majority of the time that means we jumped to judgment as to the cause when more troubleshooting was the thing to do. The way to see that is when the input shows there is little unity as to the cause.

As I understand you had no shake at all until you made the rim, tire and spacer change. I don't believe in coincidences. The odds on favorite core issue is that one of those components are still the culprit.

Road force balancing should have eliminated any problems associated with the tire and rim combination. Of course that assumes they were competent and were able to make any needed adjustments.

Since you have replaced the spacers and tires it is very reasonable to conclude they weren't the problem for now.

If the steering rack is the cause there should be other symptoms such as leaks, hesitation when you try to turn the steering wheel at an idle, kind of a squeal or rushing air sound when steering wheel is turned to lock point in one or both directions or steering wheel is harder to turn all the time. It is a very long shot that the change you made trashed the rack. I wouldn't have work done on the steering rack yet.

The motor mounts may need replacement but my experience with motor mount symptoms does not include shaking-- when you are experiencing it . And, it is a big stretch for me to believe that happened when you made the rim/tire/spacer change. They're easy to check if you want.

Generally, when one suspension component fails the best course of action is to inspect the entire suspension before replacing anything. One of the reasons is so it doesn't have to be disassembled more than once since more often than not the failure of one part signals the rest are close behind and the same symptoms can be caused by more than one component. It's fairly easy to change the wrong part. Off the top of my head, I can think of only a couple of reasons that could tie to the change. Suspension may need rebuilding but it is also very unlikely the problem. It is extremely rare it happens that way. One possible suspension problem because of the whee/tire change could be that a suspension load change pushed the failing part to a point beyond what was generated prior to the change so now there are symptoms that didn't show before. While possible I don't think likely and the failing part should show in the repair shop inspection.

If at all possible, return to the wheels, tires and rims before this started and see if it still shakes. If it doesn't, add only the spacers and see if the shake appears. If it doesn't put only the new wheels and tires on and see if it shakes. If it doesn't add the spacers. Depending on when the shake appears the troubleshooting has eliminated almost all of the possibilities.

If that is not possible the next thing I would do is verify the spacers and rims center on the hubs. Then I would have a recheck done of the road force balancing and have them show me on the screen or a printout that the rims and tires are not the problem.

Then I would have the repair shop show me the problem with each component on their estimate. Worn suspension parts are pretty obvious when demonstrated. What is the shop's reputation? As the only game in town they can easily be expensive but if they do good work it's a far better option than the 8 hour drive.

If this doesn't locate the core issue we will be, guessing, 90% of the way without buying any more parts you don't need.

^ Great points. Have you ever had your CV axles replaced? Only other thing I haven't thought of is that they were replaced with cheap chinese aftermarket axles at some point.

This.

Took care of a shake for me last fall.

Wife's x5 started having a hell of a shimmery while slightly turning or slightly breaking. Turned out to be control arms. Once there is some play (and too little that you can't tell by kicking the wheel) the wheel will act like a wayward shopping cart wheel!


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