Cost to replace timing chain guides/tensioners on M62 (4.6is in particular?)
 

Hi everyone,
I know that this topic has probably been discussed TO DEATH on this forum already...;) But I have yet to actually find a post or a thread where people talk $s.

I'm in the market for a nice 4.6is (so I'll double-up on this post as a plug for that WTB as well!) and there are a few around that have had the timing chain guides and tensioners replaced, but a few others that don't mention if it's been done (so take it as read that it probably hasn't).

I would just like to know - so I can factor it into my budget as an immediate maintenance issue because I won't want to drive around in a 4.6is without the guides and tensioners having been done - a ballpark cost on this work? I'm thinking by an independent specialist rather than a BMW dealership (although would be interested on peoples' experiences of both).

Thanks in advance - and like I said, if anyone has a really nice 4.6is that has been LOVED and maintained to death and they'd like to part with it, please let me know!

Adas

$4,400. But that includes new gaskets, oil and water pump (I think) while it's open.http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k...pstcyxdohw.jpg
You're shop might have lower or higher costs but I asked mine to scare me, they did.

I'm going to see a guy selling both his X5's. A 4.4 and a 4.6is. You could throw me an offer for ours but consideribg we've "invested":bustingup $12k into it in the last year... It wouldn't be cheap.

Just saw 2 real clean X5's. Both '03s, one 4.4 one 4.6is they are owned by a family with 12 bimmers in the garage. Well maintained and looking sharp.

Thanks Plattus1000. Wow, $4k. Ouch! I figured it might be around the $3-4k mark...definitely needs to be considered when buying one. I think I've seen your 4.6is on another thread - a beautiful black one, in Washington, right? Looks really clean - but yes, if you've already spent $12k on it in the last year (double ouch! Should I be reconsidering getting a 4.6is...?) then you probably want/need to get more than what my budget would allow! ;)

This is what I tell people all the time. It's not miles per gallon I look for in a car but rather smiles per gallon. You can buy a new m X5 for $80k and you'll love the power or for a total of $20k have a fully restored beast from the past you'll love just as much.
You're on the right path researching cost of admission/maintenance. Find a well cared for vehicle and just know that any german parts made of plastic that are over 10 years old should be replaced. If they were replaced recently by the previous owner, great if not you can do alot of the work yourself it's not that hard.
A major cost of the maintenance is people trust their mechanic or shop and don't know about options for parts or repairs.
Prime example.
This guy, thanks to this forum just saved himself a ton of money and headache
http://www.xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-foru...otor-asap.html
The e53 isn't a complicated vehicle compared to a more modern one. Mechanically it's accessable to just about anyone willing to read and try stuff.

I wasn't a fan of X5's before driving this 4.6is and now I kind of want one for myself to see how much power/control I can get out of it. It's planted, fast and for something weighing what it does, dances like a fit and toned baby hippo through traffic.
We have a set of winter feet for it and it did great in snow and ice. I used to live in Mesa CO so I know you get some white stuff over there.

If you find a creampuff and pay $11-13 for it, expect to pay another $2k right off the bat just to satisfy your inner doubts about stuff.
Then there's tires, brakes and a service check to make sure all is well.

Then just budget for an extra surprise fee for little things that break overnight when you're not looking.
I'm giving you a bad case (not worst case) scenario. My '03 wagon hasn't had an issue in a year plus so...?

Like with kids or anything you love and you will love it, the cost just becomes part of the story, the history that make you regret at times and love all the more the other times.

Smiles per gallon buddy, smiles per gallon.
P. S. I'd take $12k today :)
"You know you want it and yet you fear it. Accept it now before it destroys you! "

If to replace guides and other sundries whilst on there, I'd budget $1600 or so for parts, max $2k in labour. The below is what I went through

http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...on-is-on/page2

My gawd. You achieved all that for $2k labour (whatever that is) and $1.6k in parts!? Firstly, I applaud your posts/pics. Very motivational. Secondly, should the magic tree ever fall on your glorious red beauty's rear half, please send the motor my way. I'll give you the first ride in the only 4.6is wagon on the planet and perhaps a bottle of your favorite rum.

No shop I know of here would touch that project for less than $6 and that's with me providing parts at wholesale.

Oh, what is this labour stuff of which you mentioned?

Very cool. I would love to see what a brand new engine on one of these would feel like.

ADAS--
The short answer is yes, you want the 4.6is. I know there's no real good argument for that statement but it's true. The best thing you can feel the first day and the last is the rarity. There's like 1,200 of these world-wide. No offense to my 3.0, 3.5, 4.4 and 4.8 petrol (that was for you transportador)brethren but at a stoplight amongst the 600,000 other X5's out there, "it's got 11". It's something that adds an intangible value to whomever knows what it is and envy in those who have no idea and after all, don't we all want something special even if its only special to ourselves. I enjoy seing drivers in the other e53's do a double-glance at the side badge. It makes me smile when my wife sees a 4.4 and says "4.4, honey they have a little motor too, like in your car." (honestly if I have to explain displacement to her one more time I'll kill myself. I told her that the "is" meant It's Special)
There are faster rigs, more nimble rigs but this motor was a very special thing. Given the option to do it over again, I'd stay with it. It's a motor that sings. The effortless climb in rpm starts softly with a gurgle that changes to a wonderfully ellegant menagerie of chaotic discourse between force and redirection distilled into a chorus of apocryphal glory and prophetic carnage that just before a gear shift makes you want to push your foot through the firewall just to see what lies on the other side of heaven... Naked.

Woah, sorry, right. Short answer: Yes, get one.

Haha. "Labour" is the British spelling of the word, I spell that way as I was educated within said system. Labour, is that thing I try to avoid, but it being I have BMW's, I cannot seem to shake this tiring habit.

I have a close knit bunch of BMW enthusiasts here in GA, and we get things done for very fair prices. My 7 series is at a buddy's house right now getting the chain guides done(failed last week). $1k in labour, about $800 in parts. The reason the X5 cost so much to repair is because chain broke, so the heads had to be re-done et al.

We touch any project that we see value in. Fear, is not a factor here, just time and as little money as possible. Also, I'm able to save boatloads of cash by dumpster diving at the junk yards(make some cash too), so it all evens out in the wash I guess.

I love these cars. I'm able to have 4 v8 thoroughbreds for less than a used 2013 Camry. I tell you this fecal matter can only happen in the USA.

Oh, and if a tree were to fall on my X5, that motor is going straight to the 7 series! :nanana:

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Something to consider if you end up finding one that needs TC guides done is retrofitting the oil separator setup out of the 740/540's. Maybe its not as much of an issue in CO winters but here in Minnesota the oil separator & CCV's fail with regularity due to the cold temps. I work at one of the BMW dealers here in Mpls and come winter time we see e53's come in all the time with failed separators and it's not always due to age, more so due to the poor design/external location of the separator where the moisture collects then freezes causing pressure buildup that ultimately finds a release through one of the various gaskets causing serious oil leak and in some cases hydrolock.

The separator on the 540/740's are located internally under the lower timing cover and thus do not suffer from the same failure because they don't freeze up . I myself just did this retrofit this summer but a few of the techs here own 4.4/4.6's which they have performed this modification on and have had ZERO separator issues combined between all of them going back as far as the past 5 winters since doing it.

It may not be an issue out there because the temps typically are not as cold on average as they are here in MN but just thought I would throw it out there. If you are already in there doing guides it is not that much extra work/money to do this preventative modification.

Cheers and happy hunting!

Thanks, Trasportador - that's good to have the 'lower' end of the range, so I guess I should probably be budgeting for somewhere between $3-4k...:)

Plattus1000 - you are quite adept with prose, sir! Nicely written! ;) Re: your first post about 'smiles per gallon'. Well said, I completely agree. I moved to Colorado from New Zealand back in Oct 2014 - my last car in NZ being an E39 M5. I moved here to marry my girlfriend - giving up my M5 for her, it must be love! I'm sure on M5 boards there is much wailing and gnashing of teeth about massive running costs of M5s etc., but like you say, that is really missing the point. I loved my M5 (had it 4 years before I moved here and had I not moved, probably would have driven it for another 5 or 6 years) and that was after having and E34 M5 for 5 years. Don't get me wrong, I don't LIKE to drop thousands on car repairs, but at least with the M5 it didn't bother me too much because I LOVED the car so much. So I can definitely empathise with your commentary. You just have to budget that into your cost of ownership on a car, and like us on this board, the car is more than just a way of getting from point A to B - it becomes a hobby, a passion. And yes, now living in the mountains of CO, an E39 M5 would not be a practical proposition, but I always loved the 4.6is and saw it as the M5 of the X5 world back in the day. I know the 4.8is came along and there are numerous threads on this board about "4.6is v 4.8is" so I won't go there - it all comes down to personal preference and while the 4.8is might have a few more ponies and be a bit quicker, I just love the 4.6is. There is a similar argument in the E34 M5 world (3.6 v 3.8) and I personally prefer the look and the drive of the 3.6 (which is what I had). But again - it comes down to preference, and at the end of the day, they're both awesome cars (the same with the 4.6is and 4.8is).

As for your follow-up comment - yes, I agree - I will just have to get one! :) And factor in at least $3-4k per annum of maintenance (over and above standard servicing) - that is, if I keep it long enough (3+ years). I know your spending of $12k in one year throws that calculation out the window somewhat! Unfortunately I am about as handy as an extremely unhandy thing, so doing any work on the car myself would be courting disaster. Hence the need to find a really competent (but hopefully not gouging) local independent specialist. I will actually go and talk to them next week about getting an estimate on timing chain work so I go into it with my eyes open should I buy one that hasn't had the work done...

Your description of the engine etc. really excites me. I haven't actually driven a 4.6is yet! But that said, the first time I drove an E39 M5 was the day before I bought it (and my first time driving the E34 M5 was the day I bought it). Now I'm not suggesting that the 4.6is is comparable to M5s, but I am expecting that same level of "wow, this is a great car, I MUST have it" And good to know that it can handle the snow. When you say you have winter feet, did you still run the 20" rims but with studs? Or did you swap out (like I know many folk do) into a dedicated set of smaller rims (18")? I'm hoping that I can run the 20" all year round, albeit with different tires in the winter - because I just love the look of the 4.6is rims (which again, not that I want to get into a 4.6 v 4.8 slinging match - because everyone has their own rightful opinions, but I personally find the 4.6 rims a lot nicer than the 4.8). So I'm just wondering whether a decent set of winter studs on the 20" rims still makes it drivable in the CO winters...

If the vehicle has been maintained and mileage is not too high you should not have to worry about timing chain guides and timing chain. I replaced the set on my wagon (99 540it 4.4L) when I purchased it at 163K miles. The second owner did not take care of the vehicle as well as the first owner. The first owner sold the car to the second owner at 140K miles and clearly they could not care for this caliber of car. My brother and I rescued it at 23K miles later. If you are buying one over 150K miles and the guides and chains have been done then ride on into the 200K mile territory. The 4.6is is a very good engine especially when it has been cared for. I love mine in the X5

DYPWICK - thanks for the tip! Definitely worth a consideration (like you say, "if you're in there...") You're right, we probably don't get down to the depths of cold like you do in MN, but having said that, my car will (unfortunately) be outside all year round so it will be exposed to some 5 months of fairly cold temps on a regular basis. We're getting dumped on at the moment (I live in Snowmass) and the forecast low for today is something like 9, and it's only early November...so I guess we're in for a long winter! When I got married here last year (on the 8th - so my 1st anniversary coming up this weekend!) it was 70 on the day. So quite a different start to winter this year compared to last!

FWIW I run a squared 275 winter tire setup on the stock staggered 20" 4.6 wheels. It gets around here in MN winter with no problems at all. That said we don't have nearly the snowfall you do out there and I'm not driving it through winding passes with massive elevation change either.

Yea, I like living in the south at times. The above makes me a little happier. I hate snow. Good job you guys are doing tackling the little nuances that these motors have.

Gotta be a salesperson telling you that drivel. Salespeople cannot even talk to me if I go to the dealership. I tell them up front I want to talk to the lead tech. "He's not available to customers" they say. Yeah, I know, cuz he'll tell me most of the stuff on the lot is garbage.

You had an e34 M5?? Reeeealllllyyy...... :thumbup: My dream car to have, but I'm old and lazy now(and don't want to go to jail for speeding anymore), so the E34 540 will have to suffice. Post up some pics of that thing man!!

This is my old white 540/6, next to my even older 530i/5. Both are gone now

http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/...613_155208.jpg

Imola love for those that love imola

http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/...psafd238d6.jpg

Had this black one for a minute, but got rid of it as something better came along
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/...psa675281e.jpg

"Something better"
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/...psc5cd3e30.jpg

How she sits today, but with a 20% tint job
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/...pseb4dcb0a.jpg

ADAS---
Love NZ and CO. Sorry about the M5 loss. Enjoy the journey looking. I was having fun last night but there was truth in what I was saying about the 4.6.

Transportador---
Just having a laugh. I've lived near Canada long enough to recognize "labour" I also noticed an uncommon clarity and style in your writing I now only see in books... Cherish that education and pass it on to your kids if that's as issue. Mostly I'm still very impressed with your garage buddies and your efforts. They sound like good friends to have. Cheers mate.

I bought my 4.6 new. Just over 115,000 miles on it now. Have done many engine and suspension mods and I drive hard. This is the first daily driver I have kept over 4 years. Has been very reliable. Keep searching until you find one with lots of documentation and history-one or two owners. Good luck.

Thanks for the kind words doc. I will be forcibly passing the knowledge I think I possess onto my daughter. Lol. The guys I run with down here are a great bunch. The main reason we keep the swath of cars we have is because we have every bloody thing we need to keep them for quite a long time.

All good things!

What are signs of failing guides?

Rattling sound at startup, especially cold start, as time goes on it can get to a point that there is obvious something if very wrong. This is an example of when job is overdue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY57P7WxnYY

The early stage sounds can be confused with other issues. One way to troubleshoot is to pull the lower pan and check for debris.

Open your oil fill cap and look at the chains. They should have a uniform color, if the edge rails of the chain are silver while the rest has a slightly amber tone, you've got issues.

You can have startup rattle if your lower tentioner is toast but you have new guides (less than 20k on new parts and mine does it)
http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k...ps2jurwadt.jpg
See the silver sections of the chain on the right? Bad news bears.

I'll take a look. Thanks for the info

Just do it, you'll have to eventually. Do it before it fails and it costs less and you won't have to worry about it.

If a shop does it, $4k easily. On your own, $1.6k in parts plus time and special tools.

I wish I could do it myself but I neither have the expertise or the garage space or luxury of being without transportation for a week.

I paid $8k for the truck plus I have $4k in various upkeep into it already over the last 6 months and another $4k is hard to swing at the moment. I'm planning to change all four wheel bearings next weekend which is over $1k by itself.

On mine when the guides started to go I got a slight whirring sound like a defective alternator or AC compressor bearing. Listen do not neglect doing the timing chain and guides on these 4.6is engines. If you do you will be sorry. This is probably the most important service/maintenance to do on the IS if you want to enjoy having an IS in the future. All that other money that you spent to bring it back will be a waste if you neglect the timing chain and guides. Mine started to make the sound at 99K miles. I am good to well over the 200K miles mark.

It's less than that if you do it on your own and buy parts wisely, along with renting the special timing tools. For example, you can save a boatload by using Victor Reinz gaskets. The last chain guide job I did ended up only costing like $650, and that's with the Vanos rebuilt parts as well. I do own the timing tools so that makes it cheaper for me, but in general it's not a super expensive job if you're smart about it. It's more time-consuming than anything, I'd say.

All good advice but like I said earlier I don't have a garage or luxury of being able to work on it myself. I got 79k on it and will need to wait for tax refund season to pay a shop. While on the topic does anyone have recommendations for a professional shop to do the work in NYC area? Last one I went to forgot O ring on the oil dipstick and left rechargeable flashlight in the engine bay that I recently found while replacing radiator hose.

M-Chanics on Long Island, George knows his stuff :thumbup:
18 Railroad Ave, Valley Stream, NY 11580

:iagree: He's well-known in the M5 community. He performed the PPI on my M5 when I bought it.

Yeah good choice I have heard nothing but good things on this shop. I know some M5 members in Maryland drive all the way to his shop in NY just to get it right.

The timing chain and guides wearing out is something that needs to be addressed at some point but I haven't seen any documentation the 4.6 is more susceptible than other BMW V8s.

It may not be imperative to have the timing guides done yet. Impossible to defend someone countering with-you should or you will shoot yourself in the eye if you don't.

However, because of the cost of the job, I would have it checked out by a well recommended BMW specialist before going forward. If all looks and sounds good, discuss just replacing the chain tensioner (inexpensive), it may not have the revised version, then go with his recommendation.

Hey, is that invoice complete? I'm just wondering because I need to do the same work on mine and saw some part numbers there that will help me. Maybe there is more?

I've shopped around for just labor quotes and received these: (all include, TCG job, valley pan gasket, oil separator, etc)
$2,800
$2,500-$2,800
$2,500
$3,420