LS3 swap into E53 X5
 

Hey guys, I have the opportunity to work with a small group of detail minded and mechanically knowledgeable men who see a lot of benefit in simplifying the E53 X5 electronically while upgrading the horsepower with a proven engine. Once we accomplish this task, we're planning on marketing the complete kit with full instructions on how to replicate it. Within this community, how much interest do you think there would be.
Let me know your thoughts.

Thanks

Interest as in others doing the swap? Probably not much. There was one member who asked about doing this earlier in the year. I think it would be cool though, just don't expect to get rich off this.

BCRedliner and I have discussed this at several Cars & Coffee Dallas meets.

If I recall, he's interested in leaving the 4.6is Dinan "as is", a donor blown trans and/or motor X would be an ideal starting point.

I love my 4.6is I would not think of putting an LS3 into my X5. I guess if it was a project vehicle like taking a blown 3.0L and retrofitting it I could see. Unfortunately none of the LSX swaps that I have seen have increased the value of these BMWs. It has to be a really special person that would have interest in it. What I love about the BMWs is that they actually engineered efficiency into their products. The LS3 while it makes great power its archaic in engineering. Its not a world class motor.

I would be interested in this, but on a 845i. Reduce weight, simplify electronics, add HP and Torque, all in a nice shaped car that won't appreciate (that is the territory of the 850csi). I can't really see the value in the X5.

Come up with a supercharger kit that works, fits and costs less than VF or ESS and I'd buy one if you offered tuning support after the sale.

there is a video on youtube of an x5 with an ls swap

Me personally, unless the engine totally blew up and the truck had no major issues, I'd just buy a new bmw motor. If speed is needed, there are solutions for that on the existing platform. I'm not saying it wouldn't be cool but so would a jet turbine drive or an all electric d/c & a/c motor. Just my opinion mind you.

My '02 VetteVert has the old school LS1 engine, but it is a remarkable motor and it hauls azz...not one lick of problems, glitches or fixes on the engine in 57,000 miles/13 years.

No dis to the OP, but for that kind of dough and work involved on a LS3 crate motor 'swap', one could buy a lot of other stuff, including a motorcycle or two that will walk the brick/tank like X5, and have enough for a nice vacay.

Or, tuck that kind of dough away and have 'maintenance and repairs & restoration' covered until one's kids get your historic E53 in 2022, and several Fam vacations along the way. ;)
GL, mD

Bunch of fuddy duddies. There are always reasons to not do an engine swap. I say do it just for the experience.

I'd be curious what's involved. The DME takes inputs from literally everywhere and sends signals back out to loads of stuff. Electronically, an E53 is pretty much an E39, so if someone has done an LS swap into a 5-series, that might be a worth investigating.

A guy in a British car club I belong to dropped an E36 M3/S52 engine into a TR6. It's an unbelievably clean transplant and looks like it was meant to be there.

I'm getting old for engine swaps........got other priorities than this.:(

Go ahead and do it....while you're young....have time.... and money.....or nothing else in life to get in the way!

Asked people "locally or close to you" who has done "own" engine swaps.........then decide for yourself.

Do it in your 89 325. That would be a bad ass swap

Theres a bunch of e39 ls swaps out there which make the cluster and everything else work like stock. Along with stock driveabilty, seeing that the e53 is mostly the same electrics wise.

Im very interested in a ls swap with a procharger. Probably cheaper then redoing all gaskets on motor from bottom to top and a ess supercharger. With the ls its more power anyways.

Buy my E53 and save yourself the time and trouble.

Thanks guys for all you input. My logic behind taking a serious look at doing it would be to simplify an amazing SUV by going with an engine that has tons of upgrade-ability in terms of tuning and performance and replacement parts aren't so expensive needing specialty tools to replace parts. The E53 X5, in my opinion, is the perfect sized SUV. The newer X5s are bigger and heavier so they came out with an X3 which is, in my opinion, too small. Enter the X4, but it's a slant back and crazy expensive. Electronically, the X5 is a nightmare to work on with WAY too many sensors and crap that isn't necessary. The engine is decent, for it's time, but you can't program it for highway mileage or turn around and quickly upload a more 'spirited' program for city driving, which the LS swap would be able to easily accomplish. The upgrades on the LS3 are limitless with stock hp of 420hp, cam'd 480+hp and then supercharging it will easily reach 700hp all day, everyday without the worry of cratering. E53 X5s are getting less expensive so factoring a conversion into the purchase of another X5 makes the next 10+yrs of driving a dependable vehicle very affordable. I have an 03 4.6is and I love it. I only have 140,000kms on it but the reality of it is that it's about to turn 13yrs old. I've already replaced the transmission ($5,500) and just did the timing chain and guides ($5,700) along with seals and whatever else needed doing at the time. It's now at the shop because the computer isn't able to communicate with the transmission for some unknown reason. Maybe I love the vehicle to my fault, but when I look around at other SUVs, and the thought of getting into payments on something newer while not really getting much for mine after all I've spent on it, it's really becoming clear why I still drive it. It's not for the re-sale value because they aren't a collector. We drive them because they're awesome and still look sexy as hell. Now just imagine not having to worry about anything mechanically and electronically the gremlins would be minimized. A buddy of mine did an LS3 swap into his E36 328 and it's a track monster. Another buddy of mine just completed an LS swap into his Infinity G35 and a Porsche Carrera as unreal as that sounds!! These engines have become the go to engine for classic muscle cars also and they're not getting any less popular.

The problem lies in that fact that you think it's going to be cheaper to swap in a LS than to mod and maintain your current engine. It's not. It sounds like you aren't doing the work yourself. After spending 10k on maintenance and repair on your current X (which by the way, you need to find a new shop), I'd be cheaper to mod your current engine.

LS swaps can be retarded expensive. I know a kid who dropped upwards of 60k to have a shop put a LS3 crate engine in his E30. Yeah, he got robbed, but that's what some shops do. It's easy to quickly find yourself in over your head.

GoFastGuy, I'd love to see this once done.
Calgary has THE WORST options for german mechanics/bodyshops doing something other than remove and replace with SAME parts, so to hear that you know of a shop willing to do some exploration is a huge positive for me.

I have Dinan mods that took me to 369HP. I added meth injection and a 150 shot of nitrous. The Dinan mods included transmission software. I also installed electric cutouts. It's hard to find the Dinan stuff anymore and if I was to start over I wouldn't bother. Whether it be a 3.0, 4.4, 4.6 or 4.8 I would go the meth and nitrous route.

I have considered lots of options beyond where I am. While there may be an opportunity to simplify the electronics and increase HP and TQ going to an LS3, doing so creates another list of issues.

In the case of 4.6 it will likely be the transmission. There is a vendor that will rebuild the transmission to handle more HP and TQ and also offers a high stall convertor. If that transmission handles the increases the next weakest link will become the rest of the driveline.

Since the bottom end of a 4.6 is almost bulletproof, and a 4.6 on the rare side, going to an LS3 only makes sense if it delivers over 700HP. At that level I think I would be chasing weakest links with little out there to solve the problem.

Unless I wouldn't be chasing the weakest links at 700+HP and 600 TQ I would go another route--such as the X5M that has an 8 speed transmission instead of a 5, launch control, etc. and the starting point is already 567 HP and 553 TQ There are suppliers to push that to over 750 HP without causing other problems. With the twin turbos getting more than that wouldn't be that difficult.

That's the route I intend to go. My 4.6 will no longer be my daily driver. I will then upgrade the transmission, increase the diff ratios to at least 4.10, increase the nitrous to 200 shot and have some head work done. I expect I will find the next weakest link.

There were no 4.6 nitrous applications that I could find so it was breaking new ground. It's not now.

Since they guys I know and have talked to about this project are well versed in 'American Muscle' we'd use the motor and transmission and probably go 6spd manual. By going manual over auto, we'd cut a whole bunch of potential sensor issues out of the equation. I'm not appose to driving a manual X5 either for that matter. Mating the drive shaft up to the transmission can be fab'd up without issue and I'm sure the rear diff will handle 500hp. Once I track down the LS and have it rebuilt by one of my buddies, I'll wait till spring before pulling the X5 engine out and building motor mounts and aligning brackets etc. From what I've heard, these engines are so much more easy to work on with parts WAY cheaper than any on the engine I'm currently running.

Why would anyone spend the time and money and end up with only 500 HP? In todays performance world you can buy 700+ HP of american muscle off the showroom floor.

There's obviously more aftermarket performance options for an LS but the the X5 would need extremely expensive custom parts to handle the output. Regular parts do cost less but there but it is not possible there would be a payback.

I've done some work on the cost/benefit of an LS swap. It quickly becomes obvious the cost to get there is way to high and the benefits are way to low and the problems where there will be no reasonable cost solution that may not even work makes it a bad idea. Even when I put the cost aside the performance gain and problems still make it a no go. More to add to what you've heard.

The way i figured this swap is rwd only conversion, whatever trans best fits and can handle the power.

Get a built rear diff, and really what else is there thats going to break? Custom driveshaft if needed and they arent too expensive as well..

I may make it sound to easy 4.6 motor may be easier to work with then a 4.8, however at a certain point in time to do a full top to bottom gasket, cooling system things, valvetronic/vanos crap etc, and even get the ess supercharger really aint cheap either... And it still wont be at 500whp after all of that.

Versus doing the LS swap, procharger or whatever else is a good add-on for the LS's, will be more reliable, more power and you can drive the car another 150-200k.

If i can make the X takeoff like this i wouldnt be expecting nor asking for more and itd be one badass car. Before anyone says get a srt8 instead, love the looks of the X, how it drives, and the interior. All its missing is a nice 600whp+.

http://youtu.be/Qbd41xSWRn4

Rear wheel drive only would make the swap easier. However, there is nothing out there that is a heavy duty diff for an X5 and the only rear ratio changes are existing ratios, at least that I have found. Cost I found for each diff was $2,600 and about $3,000 for positraction.

Jeep is having some problems with the Trackhawk 4 wheel drive that will be introduced in 2016 with the 707 HP engine. They may have to electronically limit the torque or go to rear wheel drive only. And with 2 wheel drive the TQ loss from crank to rear wheels would be reduced. I hope it is rear drive only with launch control and an 8 speed automatic transmission. I'll have my name on the buyer's list. (Won't sell my 4.6).

I have given absolutely no consideration to doing an LS swap so I can drive another 150,000 miles. If the goal was a daily driver to do that I certainly wouldn't go to an LS. From my experience with far simpler swaps, there will be big problems and failures that take a long time to work out and some won't happen until down the road. The more HP and TQ the worse they will be. That was my rational for dropping the idea.

On the surface it sounds like zip zip zip and off we go with an LS installed. To get 700 at the wheels it will need to be about 800 at the flywheel. That means aftermarket crank, rods, pistons and heads so that it will stay together. Crate LS engine at 800HP are priced will over $15,000. They are the best way to go because of the supplier, it's not their first build of that engine and they have a proven output with a warranty.

Obviously the wiring and electronics would be LS. I expect it to be a nightmare to do and if done would mean hanging gauges somewhere to know what is going on with the engine. IMO, techs capable of doing that so it is not a mess are few and far between.

As an example of things you won't know until you start dropping the engine in---You can use a dummy LS engine to see where the motor mounts should go so the engine clears the hood and the firewall. The question will be if there is existing frame without welding and cutting to mount them. The position of the engine will also need to be such that the driveshaft is not at an much angle.They same issues apply to the bell housing and transmission for clearing the firewall and tunnel. The shifter will likely need to be relocated and the console customized. A crossmember for the transmission will need to be built. The driveshaft may have some of the same clearance issues requiring cutting and welding to get it to work properly. Driveshaft will be a custom build. The list goes on and on and I assure you not all of it will be right the first time and you won't know that until you mash the gas. All this means is I would have to be a very experienced wiring guy, a welder, proficient using a cutting torch, a fabricator an engineer/designer, have a plasma cutter, a hoist an engine puller, a free stall in my garage among other stuff. Otherwise, I have to pay somebody at least $150 an hour to do the work. It's not likely they will be in the same place so I will be hauling it around.

I expect my X would be down at least six months and I would have to be willing to accept it may be far longer, especially if I do it myself.

When I'm done and the bugs are worked out I have a 15 year old vehicle with obsolete featuires that I think I will have $30,000+ in an engine swap that won't be faster than many production vehicles, likely including an X5M. I have a great sleeper but sleepers don't matter except for grins on the street.

For about $15 I can up the nitrous to 200 or 300, For about a few hundred I can go to two or three stage system to even out the torque. I can have a transmission built to handle it for about $7,000. I can go to 4.10 gears for $6,000 to put less load on the driveline at launch. My initial investment will be around $15,000 and I will then find the next weakest link. Does it make practical sense. The diffs do. The transmission does when my original transmission goes. More nitrous doesn't but if I can't put an X5M, Trackhawk, M4, Cayanne turbo on the trailer I will buy one and go up from that base where there is a new gap before I have to worry about trashing driveline stuff.

I'm not saying an LS swap can't be done. I am saying it is not worth the outcome and does not make sense.

Other than the above Zip Zip Zip and away you go.

I had the intentions of swapping my 2001 BMW X5 4.4. Engine trans and transfer case are pulled but I haven't had time to get to the project. I build e39 LSX swap kits so I was planning on building a kit for my e53 and selling kits but haven't been able to get to it. The wiring and getting gauges to work is an afternoon project no big deal at all. The transfer case won't hold a ton of torque so I was going RWD only. Let me know if you start the build and I will help any way I can. I own a 1998 BMW 540i with a cam only LS1 T56 swap and a 2000 BMW 540i with a heads, cam, intake LS6 T56 swap and am working on my wife's 1999 BMW M3 Convertible LS1 4L80e swap currently so let me know if you need anything.

I would love to see it done!!!!!

Why do you make these swaps? What are the benefits? Were the BMW engines no good?

The 4.4, 4.6, and 4.8 as I'm sure you are aware are maintenance whores. Between timing chain guide failures, vanos repairs, valve seals on the 4.8 not to mention the wonderful tranny problems at anything over 100k miles. They make decent power and are fun to drive with the BMW engines but 400 rwhp is easily obtainable for less than $1200 in modifications to a bone stock LS1. They are simple as pie to work on, give you twice the engine bay space to work on everything as they are not nearly as wide as the BMW engine. Parts can be had at your local autozone for a 1/3rd the price of your BMW parts. LS engines are extremely economical and if geared correctly in my 5 series yield 24-27mpg consistently on the freeway and in an X5 should get over 20mpg as well.

I absolutely love E53, E38, and E39 styling but with our cars getting older it's one repair after another. BMW's crappy plastic cooling system failures, brittle plastic timing chain guides etc.

Outsourcing custom one off engine mounts, headers, trans mounts, shifters etc would all make these swap less enticing price wise but with cheaper mount solutions and a few guys who actually complete the swap to do some trial and error work this is a feasible option for an old tired E53.

I would love to see someone do this in an e53. I was tempted to do it in an e30, but after having our daughter there is no time for any such projects in the near future.

I don't mind the N62's, or even m62's quirks/maintenance needs... but I can certainly understand those who do wanting to take on a swap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcredliner (Post 1057807) Rear wheel drive only would make the swap easier. However, there is nothing out there that is a heavy duty diff for an X5 and the only rear ratio changes are existing ratios, at least that I have found. Cost I found for each diff was $2,600 and about $3,000 for positraction. Jeep is having some problems with the Trackhawk 4 wheel drive that will be introduced in 2016 with the 707 HP engine. They may have to electronically limit the torque or go to rear wheel drive only. And with 2 wheel drive the TQ loss from crank to rear wheels would be reduced. I hope it is rear drive only with launch control and an 8 speed automatic transmission. I'll have my name on the buyer's list. (Won't sell my 4.6). I have given absolutely no consideration to doing an LS swap so I can drive another 150,000 miles. If the goal was a daily driver to do that I certainly wouldn't go to an LS. From my experience with far simpler swaps, there will be big problems and failures that take a long time to work out and some won't happen until down the road. The more HP and TQ the worse they will be. That was my rational for dropping the idea. On the surface it sounds like zip zip zip and off we go with an LS installed. To get 700 at the wheels it will need to be about 800 at the flywheel. That means aftermarket crank, rods, pistons and heads so that it will stay together. Crate LS engine at 800HP are priced will over $15,000. They are the best way to go because of the supplier, it's not their first build of that engine and they have a proven output with a warranty. Obviously the wiring and electronics would be LS. I expect it to be a nightmare to do and if done would mean hanging gauges somewhere to know what is going on with the engine. IMO, techs capable of doing that so it is not a mess are few and far between. As an example of things you won't know until you start dropping the engine in---You can use a dummy LS engine to see where the motor mounts should go so the engine clears the hood and the firewall. The question will be if there is existing frame without welding and cutting to mount them. The position of the engine will also need to be such that the driveshaft is not at an much angle.They same issues apply to the bell housing and transmission for clearing the firewall and tunnel. The shifter will likely need to be relocated and the console customized. A crossmember for the transmission will need to be built. The driveshaft may have some of the same clearance issues requiring cutting and welding to get it to work properly. Driveshaft will be a custom build. The list goes on and on and I assure you not all of it will be right the first time and you won't know that until you mash the gas. All this means is I would have to be a very experienced wiring guy, a welder, proficient using a cutting torch, a fabricator an engineer/designer, have a plasma cutter, a hoist an engine puller, a free stall in my garage among other stuff. Otherwise, I have to pay somebody at least $150 an hour to do the work. It's not likely they will be in the same place so I will be hauling it around. I expect my X would be down at least six months and I would have to be willing to accept it may be far longer, especially if I do it myself. When I'm done and the bugs are worked out I have a 15 year old vehicle with obsolete featuires that I think I will have $30,000+ in an engine swap that won't be faster than many production vehicles, likely including an X5M. I have a great sleeper but sleepers don't matter except for grins on the street. For about $15 I can up the nitrous to 200 or 300, For about a few hundred I can go to two or three stage system to even out the torque. I can have a transmission built to handle it for about $7,000. I can go to 4.10 gears for $6,000 to put less load on the driveline at launch. My initial investment will be around $15,000 and I will then find the next weakest link. Does it make practical sense. The diffs do. The transmission does when my original transmission goes. More nitrous doesn't but if I can't put an X5M, Trackhawk, M4, Cayanne turbo on the trailer I will buy one and go up from that base where there is a new gap before I have to worry about trashing driveline stuff. I'm not saying an LS swap can't be done. I am saying it is not worth the outcome and does not make sense. Other than the above Zip Zip Zip and away you go.

Word

Also, Word

Maybe thats the difference in our points of view. My experience is that the 4.6 is not a maintenance hog. Timing guides, vanos, transmission and cooling system every 100,000 miles or so seems reasonable to me, especially when I am over 115,000 and haven't had any of those failures.

I agree with the availability of parts and lower prices but if the LS is not a maintenance hog why should I care? The mileage increase would be great but that would be offset by the cost of the swap, it will take a long time for a payback. I expect a good share of the mileage is from the transmission gearing anyway. I'm way past 400HP with no problems at all. I have always been a Chevy guy (big block) and an LS in a X5 would draw a crowd at Cars and Coffee but with no DIY instructions or kit I just can't get where you are. I would also have to get past feeling like it was a Ford engine in Chevy.

If I blew my engine and the transmission was near death I would take another look but it would have to make a lot more sense than fixing what I have or replacing it with a B7 Alpine engine or a V10 out of a M5.

I certainly would love to hear about the results of making the swap, especially if the HP is near 700 and it is not breaking stuff on a fairly regular basis. I hope somebody does it soon.

Count your blessings. If the car you purchase was enthusiast owned then obviously you will get more miles out of these SAV's before problems but buying a used 4.6 or 4.8 now is a ticking time bomb with no maintenance records. Just out of curiosity what kind of mods do you have to achieve over 400hp at the wheels? How much do you have into the mods to achieve those goals? The ideal build would be a 4.8is with a blown engine or trans to start off with a chassis that has the wheels, body kit, suspension, interior etc right off the bat. Sell off what drivetrain parts are still good to recoup some $$$ and go from there.

Purchasing any used vehicle with 75,000+ miles is a very bad idea without the history. All vehicles have strengths and weaknesses. One should expect the cost of the repairs will be proportionate to the price when new. And, they should expect as the mileage increases the repairs will significantly increase in cost per repair. Certainly that is not always the case but I think that is a critical consideration before buying any vehicle.

It is very similar to the consideration for depreciation. If one buys a vehicle new there should be no surprise that it will be worth much less when you drive out of the dealer.

I bought my 4.6 new. All the attention and abuse has been by me. With the exception of about a dozen times, nobody has driven it but me. It has only been out of Texas once and that was in the summer.

I added Dinan exhaust, airbox, MAF, Throttle body, engine tune and transmission software shortly after I took delivery. That took it to 369HP and 382TQ at the crank. Later I added a Snow Performance level 3 meth injection, 150 shot of nitrous, electric fan with temp controller and electric cutouts. The benefit of meth varies by application but expectations should be 10-20%. Because of the nitrous the torque side increases more than the horsepower side, with a 5000 lb. X5 that is the key to improving time over a short distance, such as 1/4 mile, and with 4 wheel drive you can put it to the ground. The loss of HP/TQ from the crank to the wheels is a guesstimate and the percent varies. I have found the range to be 20-35%. The cluster seems to be from 25-30% from those that run the dynos and what I consider those qualified to provide input--a very small number of people. You can do the math however you choose.

This opens the door for naysayers to shout that this can't be true because this or that wouldn't take it. I am not going to challenge anyone. I couldn't care less. I will say this, if you haven't done what I have done how do you know what will or won't take it.

As redliner said... that's any car, not just e53's (including 4.6's and 4.8's). Work on any vehicle is expensive when you have to pay someone else to do it... I'm glad I don't have to do that.

I bought mine sight unseen with no records recently trusting the word of dealer salesman... yikes. Would I recommend someone else do that? Hell no! Luckily it has worked out for me so far over the last 6000 miles. I see plenty of E53's on the road with tons of miles on them so they can't be all that much of a ticking time bomb in reality. At the shop we'd see them come in for normal stuff, window regulators, CCV stuff, etc with the M62 variants coming in for timing chains/guides occasionally.

I'm all for the OP's proposed swap, but not because of the negative aspects of owning an m62 powered car... I just think it would be really cool and "brave" of him to go forward with it. :thumbup: We all enjoy our vehicles in different ways... and if his is to have an LSX in it with a lopey cam, I'm all for that.

I think the biggest problem from what you guys see to what I am used to seeing is the cold harsh Michigan weather really takes a toll on anything plastic on these cars. Southern states are so much easier on these cars. One of my closest friends owns a german indy mechanic shop and rarely are there m62 cars that come in there that haven't already had the timing guides replaced or need to have them replaced currently. The first M62 I owned was a 1998 BMW 540i/6 what a powerful fun car that was! I was always impressed with how smooth and effortless they were on the freeway. That motor hopped timing and that was all she wrote. That started the LSX swap idea years ago.

I grew up in Michigan. That was why I thought I should mention my 4.6 has spent it's life in Texas. Michigan winters wore me down so it seems to make sense they could cause some components to fail or need repair sooner. Though, it is my understanding, there is more damage to plastic from hot temperatures than cold. Plastic becomes more brittle as it gets colder but for that to cause damage it would need to be bent or have an unusual pressure directly applied.

Crystalworks makes an excellent point. I have always done my own work. If that were not the case I would never own a pricy vehicle that wasn't covered by an extensive warranty