HELP!! Car Not Starting.
 

UPDATE: JAN 4/2016 - PROBLEM(S) RESOLVED.

Just wanted to provide an update, it seemed that after the countless hours of troubleshooting the "crank no start" issues has been resolved. There was no "faulty" component that is the only crappy thing, it appears that the problem was resolved during our troubleshooting. We suspect that when we were disconnecting and reconnecting harnesses, fuses, ETC we could have fixed a loose connection somewhere. I know its not the answer we wanted, but hey I will take it! It has been well over a month in cold weather and no issues as of yet!

We also had a battery draw problem, through parasitic tests we determined the issue was with the drivers door actuator. Actuator was replaced and no more issues.

Wanted to thank everyone again for there input and suggestions, was greatly appreciated!


Hello,

Have been running into issues with my X5 and hoping someone here can shed some light on my situation.

Symptoms:
Car will not start after sitting overnight and especially cold mornings. Car will crank without issue but wont start. After about 10 times of trying finally it will fire up and will be fine the rest of the day.:dunno: I find the problem is much worse on cold mornings, for example this morning it was about -5c and after about 20mins of trying she just would not start.

There are no codes/check engine, it is a 2006 X5 4.8is.

Here is what has been done so far:

Replaced Fuel Pump Relay
Brand New Battery (Dealer Installed)
Fuel Pump
Spark/Ignition tests ok



When the car is acting up and not starting, we had no pressure reading at the rail this is what lead me to believe it was the pump.

Next steps, I will do some further pressure testing (leak down etc.)

Other possible culprits I can think of...fuel filter (regulator could be bad I guess???), crank sensor (but not sure if that makes sense as this only happens on cold start), Ignition switch?? I also thought of leaky injector, but there is no smell and when it acts up I have tried flooring the gas to open up and shut injectors but still no change.

All recommendations and suggestions would be greatly appreciated! We are coming into the colder months here and need this to get resolved. Keep in mind this only happens on cold start in the mornings, once it starts it can be turned off and on without issues.

Thanks!!:thumbup:

Anyone???:dunno:

Get a can of starting fluid. If the engine does not start, a 2 second shot of starting fluid will cause the engine to start and either die quickly which means there is no fuel or the engine will start with the help of starting fluid.

This way you can try to identify a fuel related problem.

Extended crank time on an X5. Check out this video. Spoiler alert, it could be a Crank Position Sensor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1EmtwJh2o8

If you find the video helpfull I hope you subscribe to Ivan Youtube Channel.

So here is an update..

We are seeing spark, but zero pressure at rail. Upon further investigation we found that fuel pump does not appear to be priming or turning on when key is in "on" position. Checked fuel pump relay again and fuse and we are seeing power there and relay appears to be switching ok.

On spec I changed out ignition switch but still no change. Out next step would be to try to change out crank sensor, but I just don't want to be changing out parts just because. My mechanic also scanned multiple times and not seeing any error codes, we also re synced EWS and DME but it did not seem to help.

My question is, is there a "main" relay or ignition relay somewhere in the dept under the hood we can try? Would the CPS still be an issue if we have spark? Anything else we can try??


Thanks!

Doubt the crank sensor is a problem. Fuel pump priming does not require a crank sensor signal input. You have spark, so this kind of means the crank sensor should be working, however, some engines can fail over to the intake cam sensor input to use as a trigger for spark.

You have a fuel problem/electrical if no fuel pressure is at the rail.

Either the fuel pump dead, the fuel pump relay is bad or there is some other electrical related problem.

I would bypass the fuel pump relay and see if you can power up the pump with a separate power source.

Most likely your fuel pump is dead, but on your first post you said that you already changed the fuel pump. Did you buy a new fuel pump or a use fuel pump? You have current to the pump but the pump is not coming on you have a dead fuel pump. Hopefully you didn't buy a Wing Wang fuel pump from eBay or Amazon. People should stop buying cheap crap off of eBay and Amazon. If you can't afford to buy decent parts you can't afford to be driving a BMW.

Thanks guys, I agree that most likely it is not the CPS based on my symptoms. My fuel pump that I just put in a few days ago was new OEM, i don't use any aftermarket parts on my cars.

As mentioned before new fuel pump relay, even tried using another one with the same symptoms. What I forgot to mention, when we hook it up to scanner, we can initialize the fuel pump (here it prime) and when doing so we can also here the relay switch at the same time and see pressure. We just can't get the same results when turning the ignition on.

I am sure the pump itself is fine because when we turn it on via the scanner tool we here it prime and have pressure (+/- 50psi).

You can have a bad ignition switch.

Swapped out ignition switch yesterday, no change.

So just to add to the confusion....just spoke with my mechanic and we left vehicle parked indoors in heated shop overnight. This morning went to start, fuel pressure there and started right up no issues at all. It is really strange seems to be temp related at most times, no start or fuel pressure in cold weather. Brand new batter btw.:dunno::dunno:

We moved it outside to let it sit and try it again.

Only diagram that I have been able to find in Bentley for a N62 engine is ELE 117.

Don't know why you can get software to power up the fuel pump but can't get the key to prime the fuel pump.

The prime is normally controlled by the DME. Have you scanned the DME for error codes?

Yes that is the part which I am confused about. Also this morning, absolutely fine.

Yes we did scan, zero error codes. I am at a loss......the change in climate is the part that is really confusing things.

Condensation frozen up at sub-zero environment and clog the fuel filter, possibly affecting the fuel pressure regulator.

Just my 2 cents. Good Luck!

Mmmm good point, still does not explain no priming of fuel pump.

Cracks or a bad solder joint in the circuit board in one of the module that opens up when the temperature change is what comes to my mind.

That could be a possibility I guess. I will try a few things and report back, any further suggestions would be appreciated!

Priming problem you mean no fuel pump engagement while key at ON, or priming with no pressure at fuel rail? If latter, fuel filter will explain it.

When turning key to on position, no pressure at all at fuel rail and pump does not kick in at all.

Relay K96 controls power to the fuel pump. Relay K96 location can be found on page Fuel Injection 130-7 of the Bentley Manual. The relay is located on a panel located above the glove box. You could have a faulty relay that is affected by cold weather.

Check the color and shape of the fuel pump relay and compare it to the horn relay. Not sure on the E53, but on the E46 the horn and fuel pump relay are the same and you can just swap them. The horn relay rarely is used while the fuel pump relay is used every time the vehicle is started and is energized the entire time the engine is running.

I would doubt the horn relay on most 10 year old vehicles has seen more a few dozen cycles.

It looks more and more like a faulty pump relay to me, although you've already changed the relay recently.


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Point of Order
Does the pump come on with the key in Position I (ON) or Position II (RUN)? ON runs accessories such as the radio and windows, RUN is the position that powers the pump. RUN is the key position before START, where the key returns to after the engine starts.

If one was sitting in a parked car with the radio on, they would not be wanting the fuel pump to be running. This is what prompts my question about the key position. You said that you are testing for power with the key in a position where power would not be present.

Have you check the ignition switch?


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I have already swapped out the K92 relay, but can try a new one just for kicks.

I think I would 2nd the ignition switch if another relay does not help.

So when the key is in position 2 (Run) we don't here the pump, but we do have power to the connector into the pump.

So the main problem is that we can't get the pump to come on, which in turn means no rule pressure and no start. However, sometimes when the vehicle has been parked somewhere warm, the pump comes on just fine and there are no issue with starting???? It seems to only happen during cold starts when outside temps are low.

Parts changed already:

Ignition Switch
Fuel Pump Relay
Fuel Pump
Battery
Temperature Sensor

If the engine is not running when the key is in the run position the DME will not command the fuel pump to run. If you have 12 volt at the pump the pump should run, not unless that 12 volt is the fuel gauge voltage.

Sorry, I am confused. Key position 2 is the run position (just before start) shouldn't we see the pump come on before we start engine (in position 2)??? Or does the pump only come on during the start process????

I am pretty sure that when key is in position 2 the pump should come up and prime correct?

The fuel pump comes on briefly in the run position, but if the engine is not running power to the pump is turned off. If you have a fuel gauge you can connect it to the fuel rail and turn the key on to the run position. The fuel pump will run briefly, but if the engine does not start the DME will not continue to send power to the fuel pump.

Here's a video on testing for fuel at the fuel rail.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axxl98lToN8

I ran this test many times as I mentioned before and i get zero pressure when running the same test.

Sorry to ask you again, but "power to the connector into the pump", can you explain a little bit in details how you test it?

So you turned the key to Position II, and pump no sound, then you unplug the connector, and tested it with multi-meter, and showed 12V? :confused:

If so, it's a loose connection or bad pump circuit to me. Just my 2 cents.

Good Luck!

Some of the info you posted is very confusing. You posted that you have 12 volts at the pump but the pump does not turn on. This will normally point to a bad pump. Did you measure the pump voltage or the fuel sender volatge?

You posted that you have already replaced the pump, did you use a new or use pump, oem or some wing wang pump brought on eBay or Amazon?

You also posted that you were able to turn the pump on through software program. When you had the system primed did the engine start? Did it remain running once it started if it started?

Car will start when it is warm, but with the recent cold weather the car doesn't start.

Would love to help you get your X running but since we can't see the car physically we have to rely on what you post on this forum.

My apologies, I did not mean to confuse you guys :). I was merely just trying to answer peoples questions, but most of them I already answered in my previous threads so I had to repeat.

upallnight please see my responses, hopefully clears things up a bit.
I am 99% sure we measured 12 volts at the pump, but I would need to confirm that with my mechanic as I was not around during that specific time when we tested that.
Yes we replaced the pump with a brand new OEM pump, NOT an ebay or aftermarket one from Amazon.
Yes, when we turn the pump on via software the engine was able to start and run without issues.
Car does start when warm (confirmed fuel pressure and pump operation). When parked over a period of time in colder weather I can get it started but not after about 5-10min of continious cranking.

So a couple of questions I have....
1. I can get the pump going via the software and see pressure at the rail, would that not mean my pump is indeed functioning and connection to the pump is fine??
2. Would a dead key fob cause this? Don't think so based on my symptoms, but I thought I should ask.

My symptoms again:
- Crank no start (Cold Weather)
- Fuel pump not coming on therefor zero pressure at rail
Key Points:
- Car seems to start fine when warm. Confirmed fuel pump coming on and pressure at rail

Hope this helps, again appreciate your help on this guys!:thumbup:

Not sure how I would address this problem.

I might back probe the fuel pump power and run the wires into the cabin so I can confirm 100% that there is no power to the pump when there is a no start. You could use an LED or test light.

Have not seen EWS problems with the E70, but we have seen problems with EWS/Keys on the E46/E38/E39 that would crank but not start. Usually another key would be the solution.

Do you put the key in the dash or do you keep the key in your pocket?

Have you tried another key to see if you have the same problem with a different key?

As mentioned, could be a bad connection/ground somewhere that does not like the cold temps.

FYI this is the E53 Forum.

Yep, I work many different forums so occasionally I make a mistake. I have an E70 so this is probably why it jumped out of my head instead of E53.

My comments are pertinent to the E53 as it is a close cousin to the E39/E46 where we have seen EWS problems that are crank but no start. In theory this should not happen, but it has been seen many times and usually the problems have been key, not EWS specific.

Hey Guys,

Just thought that I would update. After countless hours of work and diagnostics we still were not able to find an issue. However, the car has been starting without issue for 4 days now even in cold weather:dunno::dunno::dunno: We suspect that after unplugging and plugging connections during troubleshooting we may a fixed it, I am not too confident yet, will give it some time and see how it goes.

I have a new issue which could be related to my existing. It appears that my X5 does not go into sleep mode (after 16min), everything appears to stay on and eventually drains battery. We noticed that after locking the car that the alarm would trigger about 15min later. Initial thoughts were that it could be hood sensor switch (common problem) but I know low voltage can cause this also.
I charged battery overnight and verified proper voltage then left it off charge for the day and came back and it was flat dead.

So from what I can tell, internal climate control fan stays running all night, as well as gear shift light and other features. I confirmed by leaving window down and periodically checking after sometime and sure enough car still seemed to be awake even overnight.

Have never ran into this before, what would be the possible causes for this?? I realize I have parasitic draw happening but what would cause car stay "awake"

Thanks Fellas!

Forgot to mention that I have the glove box apart, but not sure if this would affect anything?

The best way to deal with this so you aren't throwing darts with a blindfold on is to do a amperage draw on the battery. Not sure if this is more complicated than you are ready to deal with, but basically you get a multimeter, disconnect the positive battery cable and set your meter up for amperage reading. Put leads in series with the battery and the cable. Look for the draw. Start pulling fuses until you see what circuit it is that shuts down the parasitic draw. Than start digging into that system systematically. Hope this helps.

Thanks for the info. I think this test would be relevant if we did not know where the power is being drawn from, but in my case we know it's a result of the car not actually going into "sleep" mode and fully turning off. The question is what is actually causing this.

What's keeping up the car is your amperage draw, the car will not go to sleep until the amperage draw fall below a certain level. Because the amperage draw is there, the computer is not letting the car go into sleep mode.

A way to test this is to start pulling fuses until you see the current draw decreases (i.e. using a multimeter as previously mentioned...ensure you set the current setting on the multimeter to the highest number and work your way down).

Thanks for the suggestions and will try a parasitic test tonight and see what I come up with. On spec I also disconnected blower motor resistor but that did not seem to help.

I am having a very similar problem. Was travelling this weekend and I came out to start the X5 on the first cold morning it has seen this year and it cranked, but would not start. My first guess was the fuel pump because I couldn't hear it prime. I checked voltage at the fuse #47 on my vehicle and it showed sub 11V, not sure if this is normal or not. It showed the same sub 11V at the fuel pump. I ended up hot wiring it from the jumper posts in the engine compartment which showed 12V. I let it run and switched on the ignition and it started right up. Did you try hot wiring the pump? How many volts are you getting at the fuse and at the pump?

Interesting, I cant recall the exact voltage reading at the pump or fuse 47 and have not tried hot wiring it either. Did you hotwire directly from the jumper terminals to the fuse?

You 2 are playing with fire "jumping" fuel pumps etc. What a waste of time and you are not finding anything out as far as diagnostics go. These cars need a steady 12+volts to operate. Start with a good source(battery/alternator) than go from there. Your statement of removing the blower motor resistor and it not helping. Did you do a amperage draw before and after? Not trying to be a jerk here, but you are asking for help, we are directing you on what to do and you continue to take random stabs at solutions. We are all in support of DIY, but this can also be a great source of learning if you will follow the lead of others who have been there. These are expensive cars and they need to be dealt with accordingly using the right methods/tools/diagnostics. Jumping fuel pumps from a battery post is NOT the way to go about it.

Battery is fully charged at the moment. I will run through some further diagnostic tests to help determine where my source is for my parasitic draw is coming from that is step 1.

I did jump mine from the jumper terminals. I had no choice as I was stranded 900 miles from home. I would not recommend it unless you are confident in your abilities

Very Similar Issue to OP's Issue
 

Resurrecting this thread as I believe I have the same issue as the OP and did not want to start a new thread.

It looks like there was no solution to the crank, no start problem, other than troubleshooting and problem went away...

Problem Summary:
The issue I am having appears to be related to the weather. Car has not exhibited any ignition or performance issues up until yesterday when I tried to start the car at 10 degrees F (6:30 AM). The engine failed to start after the starter was cranking for a long time. After a few more attempts, it would finally start and would run smooth the whole drive (25 miles, mostly highway). I drove it again during my lunch break (noonish) and again at 5 PM when I left work to go home, with no starting issues whatsoever.

The next day (today), same issue occurred, but this time I failed to get the engine running. After the excessive cranking, the battery started to lose juice and thus not enough juice to start the engine.

Based off this, I don't believe the issue is related to battery or alternator as there was plenty of juice to be able to start the engine. It only ran out because of several attempts of cranking for 5-10 seconds each time.

Because it is very cold, I decided to get it towed to a mechanic down the street and the car has not been serviced yet. I am hoping I can get some ideas before they call me back.

Here are some possible ideas I have gathered and not sure if I am missing something:

Fuel Delivery (Fuel Pump / Filter): I will ask the technician to check the fuel rail pressure. Although not sure if this makes sense since it ran fine yesterday and if it was truly a faulty pump, then the motor would have shut off during my drive.

Battery / Alternator: Again, don't think this is the issue, but I think the issue is cold weather related and batteries do not like the cold.

Crankshaft Position Sensor: Not really sure, would cold wintry weather cause this part to fail? I don't believe this part has been replaced and at the car's age and mileage I am most likely overdue on this life of this part.

Ignition Switch In my opinion, this is probably the culprit. Bad contacts maybe?

In summary, all I really know at this point is that when its really really cold, it will not start. I am willing to bet when they service the car later today it will probably start since it warmed up a little bit. This issue occurred yesterday when the temperatures dipped to single digits the previous night. Prior to that, it was in the 20's and I have never had this issue before.

My car is a 2005 X5 3.0i with 196k

anyone have any clues to my last post? Still have not heard from the mechanic, they didn't even get to my car yesterday...

Appreciate any help I can get! Maybe I should have started a new thread...

Check voltage as you may have used all that was left in battery. Possible causes is voltage regulator on alt or a dead alt. I recommend you PM Andrew as he's the man who is a electronic Jimmi Hendrix and about all I'm good for is how make a crater in the parking lot.

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For a gasoline engine to start you need fuel, compression, and a spark from the spark plug. You can test for fuel at the fuel rail with a pressure gauge. Just because you have pressure at the fuel rail doesn't mean the engine is getting fuel.

You will also need to test for a injector pulse to the injectors. The injector pulse signal the injector to open so that fuel can be injected into the intake manifold. A noid light attach to one of the injector connector will confirm if you are getting an injector pulse.

I am assuming that the engine is healthy so unless you were having problems before you can skip the compression test.

Last but not least, are you pumping the accelerator when you try to start the engine? If you are, you most likely flooded the engine and no amount of cranking is going to un-flood the engine. Spark plugs will have to be removed and dried out, the cylinder will have to be dried out.

OMG Hahahaha http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/image...ies/hiding.gif

What? It's true. Although I'm sure my anti-theft is the best it only works once![emoji38]

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You're killing me today... Lololol http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/image...es/respect.gif

Thanks for your comments.

Interesting note about the injector pulse. I will relay the info to the mechanic shop. Can you elaborate a little bit about the "Noid light"?

Regarding the compression, I haven't checked it ever but the engine runs smooth and no performance symptoms or misfires, so will probably skip the compression test until later.

When I was trying to get it to start I recall I may have tapped on the accelerator, however, when the problem first occurred I did not depress the pedal, just turned the key until it eventually started. So while I may have a flooded engine now, it did not cause the issue to occur initially.

Hey, I had similar issues. I fixed mine by replacing the IVM - integrated supply module. The same module is used on almost every BMW from this time period. It supplies power to many of the cars systems including ignition. When this module gets old and it gets cold the voltage output can drop not supplying enough voltage for the fuel pump to prime and many other gremlins. It's easy to test, located in the engine compartment side of the fire wall on the passenger side in the electrical box(this is on an E53) I think it's in the same spot for most X5's. You just have to remove the covers to get access and i believe there are 4 - 5 torx screws you will need to remove to get the cover off. When the car doesn't start, open the cover and tap on the IVM. If the car starts, that's your problem. I could just bang on the electrical box without removing anything and mine would start. It's a small box shaped module about 4 x 5 x 1.5 inches rectangular shape. It has connectors plugged in and has some fuses as well. It's the only thing that looks like this in the electrical box. Here's a pic http://www.euromotives.com/i/ebay/f/1431884703.jpg
Make sure you replace it with a brand new one. I tried replacing the ignition switch, tested the fuel pump, crank position sensors and a bunch of other things before I found out about the IVM. It's less than $100 and you can find a youtube video about replacing it. If it's a crank position sensor, the car would usually start after a number of tries so I doubt that's your problem. The IVM is a very likely cause based on your posts.
Good luck

It looks like the 4.4i and 4.8is uses this module. When I go to realoem, it doesn't appear that the 3.0i has a part number for this...

RealOEM.com - Online BMW Parts Catalog

Easiest thing to do is look in the e box and see. My wife’s 3 series had the same module so my guess is they are all the same. Or just try banging on the e box and see if it starts

Update:

Car mechanic calls and said car started right up with no problems... They did not perform any diagnosis since the problem solved itself.

This further supports my claim that it is cold weather related. In Cleveland, it is 46 degrees F today. The starting problems occurred when it was in the tens or single digits.

Is it safe to assume, the issues is not fuel related then? I will look into the relays in the ebox and to determine the module part number. I guess when it gets cold in a couple days I can try banging on it to see if that solves the issue or try to get some heat in there haha.

Started the car this morning and fired up right away. It’s about 27 degrees out this morning. Will take the car into work this morning and hope it’s starts in the afternoon when I head home.

I won’t be able to look into the ebox until Friday on my day off. Also, searching online confirms the IVM only exists in the V8 engine models, so no IVM in the 3.0i.

Any clues what I should be looking for? Started relay? Ignition relay? Or maybe ignition switch in the steering column?

Do you have a code reader? Like a Foxwell NT-510 or something? Torque Pro is good for basic readings but a Foxwell can do almost everything that you'd pay to reset at the stealership (best thing to have under $150) since stealership charges around $200 to just do a reset

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I do have torque pro integrated on my AVIN head unit with a Bluetooth OBD2 adaptor. I actually use it frequently, I can check for codes but I really doubt it will pull codes for electrical related components.

This is why having something like the Foxwell is almost mandatory.

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I have something better, INPA / NCS / EDIABAS... just not sure which menus to use and if it can even tell me anything about the problem I have. I bet that Foxwell won't either.

It sounds like something that loses contact when its cold, so when the car is running fine, I don't think any diagnostic system will tell me anything.

Then run live data while starting, running/attempting and this way you'll see what's not giving data or data is way off

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Since the mechanic found nothing wrong with the engine, I would keep a spark plug socket and ratchet set in the car to check the plug if this occur again. It is very easy to flood a fuel injected engine if it doesn't start right away. The computer will allow a greater quantity of gas to be injected into the engine when the ambient temp drops. An engine that is not cranking fast will be harder to start. I keep one of those litium jump pack in the car if I feel the engine is not cranking fast enough.

IVM is on later date V8 X5.