X5 3.0d won't start
 

Ok, so not having much fun here! Car was running great, took off down the road and was off the accelerator.
When I went to accelerate again, nothing.
No lights, no warnings, no coughing, nothing.

The car would crank but would not start.

Towed car home, so far I found that the ECU is not turning on the fuel pump relay and therefore not turning on the pumps. I jumped the pins at the relay and both pumps turn on and sound normal. I have also tested the relay and it works fine by itself. I tried to start with the relay jumped (pumps on), but no go, so I'm guessing the ECU is not seeing something and not allowing the engine to start.

It is at a local garage. They have a very good scan tool and read 10 fuel related codes, that they cannot erase. These codes also do not know pinpoint the problem for them.

So, what would cause the ECU to not turn on the fuel pump relay/start engine?
ECU failure?
Ignition switch?
Faulty key/immobiliser?

Battery was charged and tested. All good.
Any help greatly appreciated, of course this had to happen at Xmas!

Not sure if the electrical systems are the same for the 3.0 and the 4.4 motors, but I had a no start issue that I could not track down. Found out the DME had 3 fuses in the fuse block and one of mine was blown. It was a 7.5amp. So, maybe check your fuses and see what happens. Mine just decided to blow, hasn't done it again in months.

Thanks Cape, I did check the fuses inside the glovebox, including the large red ones. Couldn't see any problem there. Is there any others?

If the engine is cranking over, then it not a key, EWS issue. If the pump is running when you jump the relay then you are missing something else. Have you checked for spark? No spark could be a bad CPS (crank position sensor). Have you checked for injector pulse to the injectors?

This is a diesel. With the fuel pump relays jumped and fuel pumps on, I tried cranking it and it still won't start. So the ECU isn't letting it start for whatever reason. I'm guessing the injectors would not be pulsing either, anyway to test for sure on the diesel?

Ok, SOLVED! As some others had mentioned in other threads, I checked the fuses inside the E-Box located in the engine bay. Sure enough, one 20A fuse was blown, after replacing it, starts no probs. Also driven for 10mins with no immediate failure.

There is a small fuse holder in there that is grey and doesn't really look like a fuse holder at first. When I first looked in there I didn't even think my car had those fuses because I didn't see it.

So unfortunately I had to pay the indy for 6 hrs of trouble shooting, when the diagnosis and scan tools said otherwise. I have the forums to thank for the solution of which I went up to the shop and found myself.

Thanks for the follow-up, F1Pilot. Very handy to know the fix (in your case). I hope I never need to know the fix but... :confused:

In the middle of summer trip right now - 1000kms into a 2000km trip - love driving this car!! :D

Here is a couple pics for anyone trying to find these fuses.
http://i67.tinypic.com/23m242v.jpg

http://i66.tinypic.com/2potmvl.jpg

That's the grey fuse holder in the middle of the pic. It is normally clipped on lower, beneath the wiring loom. It's a bit strange to open.
First unclip it from the ebox, then you need to slide the top lid off the fuse holder. It has a couple clips which hold it on, but it will slide off. Hope this helps.

Thought I'd dig this thread up and see if anyone can help. I'm pretty sure tracing it back to this event that my motor has run slower ever since. It was only boosting to about 15psi and recently lost all boost, running very slowly. It all of a sudden went back to how it was running about 12-15psi, still low power. When under load it doesn't control boost well, and fees like it misfires.
Things I have tried:
1. Replaced all injectors (some were leaky)
2. New MAF checked
3. New HPFP regulator
4. Low pressure fuel pump filter changed
5. Boost solenoid checked and vacuum system checked

With INPA, free revving shows requested rail pressure vs actual as matched.
It very much feels like a fuel delivery issue.

There is no codes.

I'm starting to think either a HPFP ( I can't see INPA while driving due bad laptop battery.)
Or, is this some faulty DDE issue?

Any ideas?
Cheers

First step is to go back and find out what the 20A fuse that blew feeds - something took out that fuse. Might pay to find out what.

Once you indicate which fuse it was, we might be able to track it back to the source of the issue. Maybe.

As a possible starting place, one of the 20A fuses in the e-box protects the turbo boost control solenoid, among other things...

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...-relay/hGi84uB

If the solenoid is faulty (and even once took out the fuse) it might explain the loss of power. Fixed a similar issue recently on a mates Sportage diesel - in his case the vacuum from the electric solenoid was flakey. Sorted the solenoid and his low-end torque came back.

*edit* removed some confusing links I posted (lots of jumping from DDE 4.0 and DDE 5.0 in newtis diagrams).

BTW, just what exact year/model is your X5? :-)

Thanks wpoll.

The fuse was the main one for the DDE I thought. I would have to go back into it and see to be sure.

The boost solenoid was swapped out works exactly the same. We also locked the turbo closed, it could build boost all the way to 25psi, but only with revs and it made no extra power down low.

The car is a 2004 X5 e53 3.0d (218hp).

This sounds like the "V" is missing in "VGT". More of a FGT. :dunno:

So when you say you locked the turbo "closed", you mean you pushed the actuator rod in (towards the turbo). I guess that means the vanes move and aren't jammed with carbon etc.

Can you determine if the actuator is controlling the vanes during normal operation? You can test this with a vacuum pump to replace the solenoid-controlled vacuum. Not sure which way around the 3.0d is but I think it's normal to see vacuum on the actuator at low rpm and have the vacuum go away at higher RPM. Easy to replicate this with a hand vacuum pump. Might need a long-ish vacuum line if you want to road test it though!!

Yes we put the vacuum directly to the actuator to hold the vanes in the "boost" position. This is one of the tests a diesel mech tries when troubleshooting. The vanes move nice and freely also.

So I don't think it is the vanes or the solenoid. Even with them forced closed, it is still very slow down low and we never see a hint of black smoke.

Having a look at that link you posted, it looks like the "Hall effect sensor" is on that 20a fuse also. Could that cause this?
When it lost all boost and was VERY slow, it also made the engine exhaust note much louder.

Without knowing which exact 20A fuse blew, I can't be certain about the hall effect sensor (cam shaft position sensor). There are a good number of other possibilities...


F1 20A
B2381 Rail pressure control valve
B2382 Volume control valve
B2264 Solenoid valve, supercharger control (already eliminated)
B6219 Hall-effect sensor, camshaft 1
B6217 Hot-film air mass meter (eliminated?)

F2 20A
A2402 Preheating control unit
B2231 Electrical changeover valve, engine mount (whatever next!?)
B2244 Changeover valve for exhaust gas recirculation (AGR) (do they mean EGR?)

EGR or Rail pressure control seem possible, although I can't see why an issue here would increase engine noise much... :dunno:

Well it can't be EGR. I have a bypass fitted but also kept the solenoid connected electricaly to avoid any codes.

Couldn't believe it, but today the car has now destroyed a vibration damper (main pulley). Managed to get it home with the A/C turned off. Wondering if this is what was causing what felt like misfires.

Once I get this new problem fixed, I will get INPA working whilst driving to watch rail pressure and low fuel pressures.

Dang... it never rains... :(

The vibration dampener thing seems to happen more in hot climates - not seen one fail down this way or hear much about them from the UK folk either.

Good luck with checking the rail pressures - it would be my next step too. I checked the rail pressures etc. while driving on the Sportage I was working on for my mate. Didn't show anything odd which is why I moved on to looking at the VGT system. Got lucky I think! :confused:

you replaced the regulators but how about the fuel pump? you said it yourself 'it feels like fuel delivery problem'.

I had a fuel delivery problem on wife's gas 3.0i; it was a worn out (weak) pump; in her case the return line from the pres-regulator wasn't supplying enough flow back to the low side of the tank (left side) to siphon gas over to the surge tank where the pump is located. A weak pump would allow most operations besides WOT to seem normal but under solid demand of fuel, it would not supply the requested amount. I'm not sure about the diesel model but it's an 'urban legend' that the fuel filter need ever be replaced on the gas models they are lifetime design; if it seems like a filter problem it's more likely a pump problem (for gas models)

I'm not sure how long diesel fuel pumps last but gasoline pumps last 5000-7000 hours; divide your current odometer by the average speed reported by the dash computer and see a rough estimate of how many hours are on your pump.

Fuel pumps tend to die slowly where they just output less pressure at end-of-life and that can last a long time (years even). I bought my pump for $120 off eBay and though it is a 'copy cat' pump the design was lock-step with OEM with a 1 year warranty, i would buy the same pump again (in fact i surely will soon to replace my own since my car has 20,000 more miles than my wife's). I am pretty sure the diesel models use the same siphon pump solution, so a sure-fire way to know if the pump is worn out is if you can drive down to zero miles range. When the pump is failing, it won't supply enough return pressure from the pressure regulator to the siphon pump and the car will starve of fuel at perhaps an eighth of a tank of gas (could be a quarter). I strongly recommend people with x5 at least once or twice a year drive down to single digits (there is about a 15-20 mile reserve past zero FYI) to make sure their fuel pump is still working properly. If you 'run out of gas' at 10-20 miles (or in my case 70), your fuel pump is shot no doubt about it. It's an easy DIY to replace. It's an easy test to run; can you drive your car down to 0 miles to empty? If you can, more work is needed to find your problem, but if you 'run out of gas' at 20-30 miles range, your fuel pump is shot and likely the cause of your fuel delivery problem

All good stuff anderewwynn but the diesel is a bit different....

The in-tank pump is similar (perhaps the same?) as is the siphon. The diesel then has another in-line electric pump right after the tank outlet, followed by the diesel fuel filter (which needs to be changed at least every third oil change or so). Then the fuel reaches the high-pressure pump on the engine.... And by high, I mean HIGH....

So there's a few "pumps" to check! But they do last a lot longer on diesels due to the better lubrication provided by diesel fuel. We call them "oil burners" for good reason. :-)

And we have to be very careful to avoid water in the fuel too, as that really damage the HP pump and injectors. Keeping the tank, lines, pumps etc. in good nick is critical on any diesel.

Go I think your best bet is to get fuel rail pressure under load. Use a DC/AC inverter to operate your computer from 12v if no battery. At least it starts and runs. Much easier to track down a gremlin on a working car


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hmm gonna have a digs in that fuse box see if anything is a miss, do i need to disconnect battery before removing fuses to check?

What makes you want to check these fuses? If any of these blow, the car won't run... It seems unlikely there's any issue there if your car is running. ;)

Curiosity...but i guess if it aint broke dont fix comes to mind now

X5 3.0d won't start
 

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...4b3d01d287.jpg

Just performed the simple test of monitoring the voltage drop on the starter cable when cranking the starter.

I have a 2001 m54 gas 3.0i. The engine was slightly not cold (a few minutes of operation after sitting overnight then a minute or two rest when I realized I've been meaning to take this measurement for a while).

I started the car twice in a row the first was actually about 75/100v second start 63/100 and after waiting just 3-4 minutes took 75/100 again.

I'm going on gut to say my starter hasn't started the escalation of current into failure and is pulling between 200-225A.

That means 0.75/212.5 means about 3.5 mΩ cable resistance.

If you take the voltage drop measured from the cig. lighter socket to the B+ jump point under the hood and multiply by 285 you should arrive at starter current.

Somebody with access to a clamp ammeter could perform the voltage drop measure to get a more accurate value but this will get you in the ballpark.

It also will give you trend and comparison info. Eg. Take the measurement at 30C and 0C it will be a lot different.

So back testing: 0.75v x 285 = 285*0.75 = 213. The immediate restart (oil still on all the journal bearings etc) was .63*285 or 180A both numbers seem right on target.

I was able to have the shrink wrap on the B+ hold my positive lead to make it very easy to do the measurement.

At some point it will be nice to have a control taken to measure the current draw and voltage drop at the same time but the 285 figure will probably work very well for most people to get a sense of if their starter is wearing out.

I'll take the measurement on wife's car when I'm in the same zip code as the car to DOUBLE my sample size.

Best if your meter has a peak scale (in fact probably a requirement. I just tried to watch live and only saw .30v or something. Maybe with analog meter you can watch the needle.

After I get a bigger sample size and especially if I can get a simultaneous clamp ammeter reading I'll make a thread about the topic and post more details.

1.38v would be 392A for comparison.

@andrewwynn clearly you are an electrical whizz..alas dont have a fluke like you but can try capture on phone camera what i see and watch frame by frame...excuse my ignorance but where in lighter socket do i touch multimeter probe to do your below step:

If you take the voltage drop measured from the cig. lighter socket to the B+ jump point under the hood and multiply by 285 you should arrive at starter current.

X5 3.0d won't start
 

Take slow motion video of multimeter when starting that might get you a useful reading; smart.

Center of the lighter socket is positive. Handy there is a little dent to hold the probe dead center.

I have the same (well, very similar) meter, Andrew - I'll do the test on my 3.0d and post up the numbers here.

Great work! :thumbup:

Ok sir thanks again will stick the probe into cig lighter socket..the other probe connect with a plastic peg to B+ set meter to 12v start car whist having someone record meter...will get back to you later on some of the maths but your explanation is much appreciated even though my brain is literally in sleep mode...

Thanks and that would be awesome to have a diesel example. I've been wanting to get this concept of there ever since I read about the exponential growth of current draw as a starter wears out. Since many of not most DIY car fixers have a DMM and with the X5 having two separate paths for electric flow from the battery it makes this trick possible.

The cig socket gets its power from the feed that comes up the right side of the car, the starter gets the power from the big cable that goes up the left side past the B+ jumper and the alternator.

I'm not sure what power is cut off during the start but it's possible the value can be thrown off if something like the fan or wipers was drawing power up the right side. That said this technique should work very well to get a read on the starter current. I don't think the diesel or V8 has a thicker starter cable (which would change the 285 factor)

@Andrewwynn and wpoll, I think I have hijacked this initial post so apologies, please see the crude diagram tell me if I am on right lines...dv will be set to 12v dc of course
PS on my diesel the starter is pretty much behind the alternator and not sure the B+ feeds straight to alternator(generator as it is called here) or the starter

On the diesel, it looks like the B+ runs right to the starter first, then hops over to the alternator...

http://i67.tinypic.com/2litn45.jpg

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...erface/hORvXOt

@wpoll, so we can still use andrewwynns trick to test the starter draw via the dc lighter and B+?

As long as the feed for the cig lighter takes a different path it will work. The "285" ratio will be different if the length of cable from battery to tap is a different length, that said. This trick measures the voltage drop from battery to the to the firewall not all the way to the starter so if the diesel has the starter on the left it shouldn't make much difference.

Thanks sir

Yep, as Andrew said - it'll still be close and work fine. :thumbup:

The circuit diagrams are a bit variable on the main B+ lead from the trunk (boot) to the firewall/starter/alternator - one diagram shows the cable as being 70mm sq. and another shows it as being 95mm sq.

That's a BIG cable! :D

Ok Wpoll appreciate yet again response, so basically should see a voltage drop on digital voltmeter from 12v or whatever battery will be reading down to 0.whatever on startup...hope nothing fries

You will see almost no voltage until you start to crank. If you see voltage like 0.1v wait until it drops, turn off any power draw like fan. You might see a negative value which will happen when power is coming up the right side cable.

70mm SQ is about 9mm diameter

Thanks andrewwynn shows how much i know....will give it try on sat

Yep - I wasn't thinking that 70mm was the dia. - but even so, in a vehicle, that's a decent cable! ;)

Didn't get this test done this morning, sorry - torrential rain here and 7DegC. - not great conditions for such a test... :rolleyes:

Has to be. You lose an entire volt for every 0.005 Ω! With a thinner cable I can't imagine how bad.

It's a product of having the starter at the other end of the car from the battery! ;)

The only other car I've owned that had this same arrangement was an old 1960s Austin Mini. The battery was also in the trunk/boot - because it just wouldn't fit anywhere else!!! :bustingup

Starter current was a lot lower of course... it was only 850cc.

Air con/fan always comes on as soon as you engage ignition to start so will turn that off....thanks

So I tried to get a reading tonight - no luck. I thought at least one of my meters had a peak hold voltage setting (or min/max) but they don't, and the start is so fast it was impossible to get any reading.

I have a Fluke ScopeMeter at work so I'll have a go with that next week - darn sure that has a peak hold (min/max) and even graphing/logging I think...

ANY Fluke surely more accurate than my digital voltemeter...plus there is noooo setting on my device to hold peak/min, so as mentioned if i can will have someone recording the device while i crank key, then check out recording in slower motion.....end of the day still need to know if my starter is doing odd things. IF all is in order owe you fellas an apology or dram or two.Then I reckon will be investing in a agm as I dont think that its a coincidence agms are in all modern stop start vehicles as opposed to 'normal' batteries. All will be revealed soon

Wayne?wpoll? ok well wired up my basic dmm to the + in engine bay and the other probe touching the inner sides of the dc lighter socket, set it to 20V got a reading that looked ok for battery at rest 13.0V, cranked engine, dropped down to 8.98V....not sure how I am gonna get the amp draw of starter via this info? if it was my starter an issue would it have dropped much more than this

I just saw your theory Andrewwynn, and sorry if I repeat

on starting voltage dropped from 13.01V(fully charge battery)to 8.98V, to clarify of course it never stayed there it then stabilized and the time frame we are talking about is 4-5 seconds as it cycled through below readings



so 13.01 rest 12.65 cranked key 12.49 8.98v then up to showing 14.36v


so my maths, lets take the 12.65v as the battery voltage yes?
12.65(soon as truned key)-8.98(lowest reading whilst cranking)=3.67v drop


voltage drop of 3.67v X the 285 figure(not sure where you go this from?)= starter draw?
in this case it would be 1045.95W (which ahmmm is way over the norm )am i correct in the way I have calculated this? is this even possible to get such a draw?

hmmm i reading your notes above must have done something wrong,says I should see no voltage until i start to crank? I never read this instead when the probe was dead center in the lighter socket indeed got no reading and thought this is wrong, so then as mentioned touched inside barrel of ligher socket that gave me reading of 13.01 v that i thought was the battery voltage, I then cranked and watched the meter reading drop, thinking that this was voltage drop you were referring to...please note my meter is one of these exxactly

I think you've misunderstood what you are testing here... you are trying to measure the voltage drop in the main cable due to the starter current. Once you know this voltage drop, you can calculate the starter current draw (using ohms law).

This voltage should be less than 1v but may be a bit more in your case. It also very hard to measure this voltage if you meter doesn't have a peak hold function....

To measure this voltage drop, put the black lead from the DVM on the B+ terminal in the engine bay.

Put the red lead from the DVM on the centre contact in the cigarette lighter socket in the dash.

You should see a voltage very close to zero.

Now start the car and note the voltage that appears during cranking. It could be between 0.5 and 1.5v so set your meter to a low voltage range before testing.

Thanks..made a pigs ear of it....will try again as you described tomorrow , you maybe right that my DMM isnt up to task but i was able to see reading by recording it and playing it back frame by frame...thanks once again

Not at all (love that phrase, btw!) - it is a little confusing.

And your trick of recording the meter is a great idea - I must try that. Don't know why I didn't think of it myself - I work with high-speed imaging!! :rolleyes:

Here's an image that might help you understand this a bit better...

https://www.freeasestudyguides.com/g...-drop-test.png

From this web site...

You are trying to determine the voltage drop across the positive cable (the red one) and normally you would place the meter as shown. On a X5 this is hard to do due to the cable length. Using the cigarette lighter socket gives a "near enough" value, as the cable feeding the cigarette lighter socket runs back to the battery (+) and as long as it isn't carrying any current, there will be negligible voltage drop on it.

Wpoll hi again, righto, this weekend had the little one in the shopping trolley and left the store, and noticed an identical x5 parked up next to me, driver in the seat radio on, car off, got the odd funny look when I asked for a favour... but when I explained what it was she was fine with it. Asked driver to start her x5 and it fired up with NO laziness at all, sounded better firing up even than mine even after I had immediately changed to a new battery...sooo kind of more than proof that my starter is pants.
Soooo father in law has insisted we take it to the best auto electric guys about see if he can recon etc (but go a feeling will be just the same buying a reconded desno off ebay) and at least I know in the uk they would have done it properly....will keep ya posted

Sounds like another nail in the coffin for the starter. :(

Bahh just want to get to the bottom of this cos spent ages looking to see if i had parasitic draw and didn't(who knows maybe have it now after testing few years ago) plus really don't want to be hooking up ctek as often as I am now


So far:
1.car started with jump pack attached -made some difference to laboured start but not whole lot

2.battery replaced gave better than above starts but after couple of weeks of my driving style, the starting starts to get labouored

3. so IF my amp clamp test was not flawed (i had clamp round one battery terminal and simply started car - on a fully charged good battery, amp clamp hit 392 for 1 sec and on second start clamp read 0L overload ie went over 400a then it does seem like starter, just simply drawing too much juice.


Even my crappy math's can suss this out, but correect me if I am wrong, so denso starter is rated at 2.0kw


I draw say 390a and at min 9.6v when starting 380X9.6 = 3.74.kw


not too sure why when hitting a figure above starter motor spec it just doesn't cut out....?mind you its only for a split second

The thing to remember about electrical motors is they DRAW power - you don't PUSH it into the motor.

Your starter is (most likely) faulty and is drawing (sucking) about 3.8kW of power. The total draw is dependent on a few factors, including motor efficiency and load.

It's rating of about 2.0kW is actually the output power specification - when running correctly the motor can output about 2.0kW or "power" or "work".

If the starter motor was 100% efficient (and most aren't - ever) then it would draw about 2.0kW of electrical energy to generate 2.0kW of output energy.

As it's faulty, it's WAY less than 100% efficient, maybe as low as 30-40%. So it draws 3.74kW of electrical energy and only outputs somewhat less than 2.0kW of output energy - say it's only 1.5kw. This missing energy is the conversion loss in the faulty starter motor and is most likely being turned into heat (and a little light in the form of sparks!).

It also explains why your engine, which needs about 2.0kW of power to turn it over sounds like its slow to start with only 1.5kW driving it.

Make sense? :thumbup:

Crystal clear great write up cheers

If you look at the video of the take apart of the damaged starter, notice that some of the commutator bars are melted together that will cause current to flow through more windings than designed at the same time. This will cause it to draw dramatically more current

You should be getting close to 11 v at the starter so 2000w would mean 180A (just a rough estimate. Actually, moronically they probably rate for 12v even though that theoretical value is not likely.

thanks for another response, well midday was at an autoelectrician who called my starter a sleepy one, "bring me another one I will swap it out" I asked if he could recon existing,he said yes, but am in two minds about doing a recon of existing one as surely replacing it altogether eliminates risk of him maybe using substandard parts/and or forgetting something during reconditioning old one....plus the current denso 2.0kw rated one better replaced with a 2.2kw ?even if the newer one ain't quite up to the standard of the denso (which going by the service it gave me ain't that good anyway). This herth+buss brand is a pretty new german registered firm for alternative car parts for european and japanese cars, i believe parts made in china. Debate about Chinese products is a whole new ball game for another day.